World Politics

[Netserk]

General election here in Denmark today. It's a close one that can go either way, but atm the right are favourites. A new party will get in (The Alternative), while most of the older parties will go back.

 

[SeriousSam]

Re:

The way the IMF etc. are treating Greece is disgraceful. First they feed them medicine that only makes matters worse, then they try to force them into taking even more of that same medicine. You can wonder if the real reason for this show is aimed at other countries, to warn movements like Podemos that they will fight them with every dirty trick there is.

Giving in to Greece after their negotiation tactics would set a dangerous precedent, and encourage others to likewise use their "too big to fail" status instead of bearing the burden of decades of mismanagement and poor policy making.

 

[Jagartrott]

This is not about "giving in", like it's some game in kindergarten.
This is about a lot of people living in poverty because of decades of mismanagement by their government (or the government of their parents) AND the ridiculous austerity that only made matters worse. Measures like just slashing the pensions even more is beyond stupid, as countless top economists have also said (the same ones that also warned the initial measures would only deteriorate an already dire situation).

 

[Netserk]

If Greece doesn't like the deal, they are free to say no and go bankrupt.

 

[RedheadDane]

Re:

General election here in Denmark today. It's a close one that can go either way, but atm the right are favourites. A new party will get in (The Alternative), while most of the older parties will go back.

Yeah. The right, lead by the party "Left".

 

[hrotha]

Re:

If Greece doesn't like the deal, they are free to say no and go bankrupt.

That kind of logic can be applied to many different situations: "If you don't like this pitiful salary and this exploitative schedule, you are free to say no and starve." After a certain point, more empathetic notions have to enter the picture.

 

[python]

Re: Re:

If Greece doesn't like the deal, they are free to say no and go bankrupt.

That kind of logic can be applied to many different situations: "If you don't like this pitiful salary and this exploitative schedule, you are free to say no and starve." After a certain point, more empathetic notions have to enter the picture.

not only such a simplistic view lacks empathy, it is largely lacking substance...yes, greece is responsible for its economic troubles, but not entirely. moreover, the greeks are not the 1st to have run into the sinking debt circle. time and again, the imf and the europen central bank were able to extend some rescue package to this or that debtor...the real reason they got such a rigid treatment is that they are much more to the left politically than the 15 members of the eurozone.

the inflexible german austerity pill will backfire across europe, if they don't heed some legitimate concerns...

 

[blutto]

...yesterday saw two horrific crimes in churches...one horrific because of the terrible loss of life and the other because of the symbolism....find below some responses...

"Rude Pundit: 'The Confederate flag, in all its forms, represents a defeated nation of racist'

'traitors. Sorry, Assholes.'

....and...

"Every S.C. Statehouse Flag Is at Half Staff--Except the Confederate One"

....and the response to this incident which hasn't received much press coverage... "https://alethonews.wordpress.com/2015/06/18/church-located-on-christian-holy-site-torched-in-galilee/"

""No Israeli media outlet will call this what it is: an act of terror. It is a hate crime. Just as there is anti-Semitism among non-Jews, there is both Isalmophobia and anti-Christian hate among many Israeli Jews. Let’s not pretend otherwise. Repeated national polls attest to this fact."

...from.. http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2015/06/17/breaking-news-arson-attack-burns-historic-lake-kinneret-catholic-church/

Cheers

 

[SeriousSam]

Re:

This is not about "giving in", like it's some game in kindergarten.
This is about a lot of people living in poverty because of decades of mismanagement by their government (or the government of their parents) AND the ridiculous austerity that only made matters worse. Measures like just slashing the pensions even more is beyond stupid, as countless top economists have also said (the same ones that also warned the initial measures would only deteriorate an already dire situation).

Kindergarten would be pretending that meta considerations such as what precedent is being set play no role in debtor creditor negotiations.

Preventing poverty in Greece is just one of the goals of the Greek government, and to a much lesser extent, that of the other agents in this negotiation. It remains to be seen whether Tsipras giving enigmatic speeches in Russia will allow him to pass on the costs of the Greek problem to other Europeans to the extent he wishes.

 

[blutto]

....here is an interesting development ( which may have some implications for the futue of the current Greek financial crisis ...)....
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Russia's Gazprom will not own Turkish Stream pipeline in Greece - Russian Energy Minister

Source: Reuters

Russia's state giant Gazprom will not own the Greek part of the Turkish Stream gas pipeline, but Moscow will assist Athens in financing the project, Russian Energy Minister Alexander Novak said on Friday.

Speaking at a memorandum signing ceremony for the project on the sidelines of the St Petersburg International Economic Forum, Novak said the ownership will be split in equal parts between Russia and Greece.

He added that Russia's state development bank Vnesheconombank, or VEB, will assist Greece in finding financing for the project. (Reporting by Vladimir Soldatkin; Writing by Lidia Kelly; editing by Katya Golubkova)

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/19/russia-forum-greece-pipeline-idUSR4N0VT02R20150619

Russia, Greece Sign Memorandum on Building Turkish Stream Extension

Moscow and Greece will construct an extension of the Turkish Stream gas pipeline.

MOSCOW (Sputnik) — Russian and Greek Energy Ministers, Alexander Novak and Panagiotis Lafazanis respectively, signed a memorandum on construction of the extension of the Turkish Stream gas pipeline, a Sputnik correspondent reported Friday.

http://sputniknews.com/business/20150619/1023559718.html

Cheers

 

[blackcat]

Re:

....here is an interesting development ( which may have some implications for the futue of the current Greek financial crisis ...)....
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Russia's Gazprom will not own Turkish Stream pipeline in Greece - Russian Energy Minister

Source: Reuters

Russia's state giant Gazprom will not own the Greek part of the Turkish Stream gas pipeline, but Moscow will assist Athens in financing the project, Russian Energy Minister Alexander Novak said on Friday.

Speaking at a memorandum signing ceremony for the project on the sidelines of the St Petersburg International Economic Forum, Novak said the ownership will be split in equal parts between Russia and Greece.

He added that Russia's state development bank Vnesheconombank, or VEB, will assist Greece in finding financing for the project. (Reporting by Vladimir Soldatkin; Writing by Lidia Kelly; editing by Katya Golubkova)

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/19/russia-forum-greece-pipeline-idUSR4N0VT02R20150619

Russia, Greece Sign Memorandum on Building Turkish Stream Extension

Moscow and Greece will construct an extension of the Turkish Stream gas pipeline.

MOSCOW (Sputnik) — Russian and Greek Energy Ministers, Alexander Novak and Panagiotis Lafazanis respectively, signed a memorandum on construction of the extension of the Turkish Stream gas pipeline, a Sputnik correspondent reported Friday.

http://sputniknews.com/business/20150619/1023559718.html

Cheers

Russia would like a new port in the Mediterranean. How many billions would it be worth to them in geopolitik terms to have a port in Greece? 10 billion? 15 billion? 25 billion?

if you think those numbers are crazy, they spent about 60 didnt they, on building snow and Socchi?

It is a bit like art, the grand masters, really dont have a price, we cant know how much Moscow would stump up.

But, it would be if Greece could give them berth, if the US consulate puts their footdown. They need something to replace Tartus in Syria. I am assuming Russia will pay for infrastructure if they need it for deep channel entry and new dock/pier (but we ARE talking Greece aint we, if anyone has significant shipping infrastructure).

the yanks wont like Russian subs and naval fleet spots in Greece, I cant see them accepting it. It would be like, what... nato in Ukraine! But I could see Vlad has been playing this out and long and longer game in his mind for a while.

lets all raise a glass of ouzo to moscow! exclamation mark

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

If Greece doesn't like the deal, they are free to say no and go bankrupt.

That kind of logic can be applied to many different situations: "If you don't like this pitiful salary and this exploitative schedule, you are free to say no and starve." After a certain point, more empathetic notions have to enter the picture.

It's obvious that Greece don't want a loan they want money they don't have to pay back or they want a massive debt write off. Constantly giving them money is pointless as they can't meet current demands. It's either let them go and hope the short term repercussions on Europe don't become long term or write off a huge amount of debt. Can see why other countries are nervous about either proposal.

Spain on the other hand seems to be improving somewhat even though jobs are still an issue but that is a common problem all over the world now it seems with people working longer and not risking to jump from job to job or give up a job to try something else. The jobs market now is tough even for people that have good employment records and qualifications. In previous decades the competition for jobs was much less and with universities consistently pumping out graduates for non existent jobs, the situation is only getting worse with those people having to take jobs in fields that other people less qualified used to work in. Of course technology is one of the big influences on the lack of of job growth. With aging populations the health sector is one area which is healthy but the problem is many governments prefer to keep costs down and have empty hospital wards and the smallest workforce they can get away with. Nursing homes and home carers seem to have a greater demand for staff now than hospitals.

 

[python]

...just read about a very interesting, geopolitically-pregnant trend developing in the middle east - a closing of interest btwn the saudis and russia. according to various independent sources, the 3d ranking saudi official, son of the new king and the current minister of defense, is now in moscow concluding various deals from military to commercial. it is said the deals will include procurement of some mid range missiles, nuclear power plants and oil exploration/utilization.

there is speculation that some of this can be explained by the saudis cooling towards the us policies. what ever the real reason, the implications for iran-saudi relations, saudi-syria approach, the conflict in yemen, iraq, isis etc etc seems boundless

 

[blutto]

...find below a very very interesting article on the crisis in The Ukraine....a nice relief from the one sided comments that are generally the norm...

http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/06/kiev-chestnuts-blossom-again/

Cheers

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re:

...find below a very very interesting article on the crisis in The Ukraine....a nice relief from the one sided comments that are generally the norm...

http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/06/kiev-chestnuts-blossom-again/

Cheers

I know this old news but reading your story there made me think of it. Have you been keeping up with what the fans of Croatian football do during games? Seriously WTF. They are some mental midget racist sh!t going on there.

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

...find below a very very interesting article on the crisis in The Ukraine....a nice relief from the one sided comments that are generally the norm...

http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/06/kiev-chestnuts-blossom-again/

Cheers

I know this old news but reading your story there made me think of it. Have you been keeping up with what the fans of Croatian football do during games? Seriously WTF. They are some mental midget racist sh!t going on there.

.....people here really have no idea how messed up Europe can be....I think most people here see it thru the lens of holiday postcards if you get my drift...but centuries of wars and often brutal occupations have left their marks...some of these grievances have been festering for centuries...then mix in all manner of religious differences and you have all the fixin's for hell on earth when the right spark comes along...remember talking to a visiting Dr from Sarajevo and he described how literally in an instance neighbour turned against neighbour and the country got torn apart...

....The Ukraine is a good example of being a big literal pail of nitroglycerin just waiting to blow...not much different than Iraq really...and the US of A decided, for geopolitical reasons, to give that pail a swift kick...if this goes up, at best it will be a self-contained bloodbath, at worse it could easily morph into WW3....

Cheers

 

[ToreBear]

Re: Re:

...find below a very very interesting article on the crisis in The Ukraine....a nice relief from the one sided comments that are generally the norm...

http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/06/kiev-chestnuts-blossom-again/

Cheers

I know this old news but reading your story there made me think of it. Have you been keeping up with what the fans of Croatian football do during games? Seriously WTF. They are some mental midget racist sh!t going on there.

If you are talking about Croatia playing without an audience, its because there were racist chants in the match against Norway. This is standard Uefa policy to combat racism.

Racism and racist chants in football are more common in Eastern/Central Europe than western Europe. I think it's got something to do with how used to different colors the populations are. My impression is that the farther east you go the more it's a problem due to these popluation being insulated from different races, and the society having so many other problems. It was a big concern before the Euros in Ukraine and Poland. They seemed to be able to put somewhat of a damper on it. Now it's a big issue in Russia leading up to the World Cup.

You also see some of these tendencies in western European societies these days, but a lot of that racism is being transferred into islamophobia, since most Muslims look different. Being Islamophobic is seen as more acceptable than racist. Anyway they are smart enough to keep all that stuff out of football.

It's the age old problem of us/them. The out group and the In group etc.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

...find below a very very interesting article on the crisis in The Ukraine....a nice relief from the one sided comments that are generally the norm...

http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/06/kiev-chestnuts-blossom-again/

Cheers

I know this old news but reading your story there made me think of it. Have you been keeping up with what the fans of Croatian football do during games? Seriously WTF. They are some mental midget racist sh!t going on there.

If you are talking about Croatia playing without an audience, its because there were racist chants in the match against Norway. This is standard Uefa policy to combat racism.

Racism and racist chants in football are more common in Eastern/Central Europe than western Europe. I think it's got something to do with how used to different colors the populations are. My impression is that the farther east you go the more it's a problem due to these popluation being insulated from different races, and the society having so many other problems. It was a big concern before the Euros in Ukraine and Poland. They seemed to be able to put somewhat of a damper on it. Now it's a big issue in Russia leading up to the World Cup.

You also see some of these tendencies in western European societies these days, but a lot of that racism is being transferred into islamophobia, since most Muslims look different. Being Islamophobic is seen as more acceptable than racist. Anyway they are smart enough to keep all that stuff out of football.

It's the age old problem of us/them. The out group and the In group etc.

Not just racist chants. They fly the Southern Confederate flag from the USA and also use people in the stands to make swastikas, and the arm salute to hitler crap.

Crazy stuff.

 

[blackcat]

technical term is otherization

 

[ToreBear]

Re: Re:

...find below a very very interesting article on the crisis in The Ukraine....a nice relief from the one sided comments that are generally the norm...

http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/06/kiev-chestnuts-blossom-again/

Cheers

I know this old news but reading your story there made me think of it. Have you been keeping up with what the fans of Croatian football do during games? Seriously WTF. They are some mental midget racist sh!t going on there.

If you are talking about Croatia playing without an audience, its because there were racist chants in the match against Norway. This is standard Uefa policy to combat racism.

Racism and racist chants in football are more common in Eastern/Central Europe than western Europe. I think it's got something to do with how used to different colors the populations are. My impression is that the farther east you go the more it's a problem due to these popluation being insulated from different races, and the society having so many other problems. It was a big concern before the Euros in Ukraine and Poland. They seemed to be able to put somewhat of a damper on it. Now it's a big issue in Russia leading up to the World Cup.

You also see some of these tendencies in western European societies these days, but a lot of that racism is being transferred into islamophobia, since most Muslims look different. Being Islamophobic is seen as more acceptable than racist. Anyway they are smart enough to keep all that stuff out of football.

It's the age old problem of us/them. The out group and the In group etc.

Not just racist chants. They fly the Southern Confederate flag from the USA and also use people in the stands to make swastikas, and the arm salute to hitler crap.

Crazy stuff.

Ah, probably some want to be more extreme than others. It's a problem that holiganism and right wing extremism often go hand in hand.

 

[ToreBear]

Re:

technical term is otherization

Thanks! Good term!

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

...find below a very very interesting article on the crisis in The Ukraine....a nice relief from the one sided comments that are generally the norm...

http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/06/kiev-chestnuts-blossom-again/

Cheers

I know this old news but reading your story there made me think of it. Have you been keeping up with what the fans of Croatian football do during games? Seriously WTF. They are some mental midget racist sh!t going on there.

Any time in any sport when Serbia play Croatia it seems to be all out war even individually. I have seen spectators ejected from the Australian Open Tennis for fighting or racist harassment when a Serbian plays a Croatian. Hopefully the women are not the same. Pakistan and India and Iran Iraq and Japan Korea would also be bad sometimes even some of the South American international football but across all sports I think Croatia Serbia is by far the worst. Even local derbies within Serbia and Croatia against their own seem to degenerate into caveman behaviour.

 

[movingtarget]

Re:

...find below a very very interesting article on the crisis in The Ukraine....a nice relief from the one sided comments that are generally the norm...

http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/06/kiev-chestnuts-blossom-again/

Cheers

Nice article. Thanks for that.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re: Re:

...find below a very very interesting article on the crisis in The Ukraine....a nice relief from the one sided comments that are generally the norm...

http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/06/kiev-chestnuts-blossom-again/

Cheers

I know this old news but reading your story there made me think of it. Have you been keeping up with what the fans of Croatian football do during games? Seriously WTF. They are some mental midget racist sh!t going on there.

.....people here really have no idea how messed up Europe can be....I think most people here see it thru the lens of holiday postcards if you get my drift...but centuries of wars and often brutal occupations have left their marks...some of these grievances have been festering for centuries...then mix in all manner of religious differences and you have all the fixin's for hell on earth when the right spark comes along...remember talking to a visiting Dr from Sarajevo and he described how literally in an instance neighbour turned against neighbour and the country got torn apart...

....The Ukraine is a good example of being a big literal pail of nitroglycerin just waiting to blow...not much different than Iraq really...and the US of A decided, for geopolitical reasons, to give that pail a swift kick...if this goes up, at best it will be a self-contained bloodbath, at worse it could easily morph into WW3....

Cheers

I hear that fairly often "WWIII", not likely since the only European area participant is Russia. China isn't going to move that far west(can't, no ships/aircraft). Compared to NATO, Russia has a teeny capability. Yes, Putin has a big mouth but Russia would cease to exist even w/o nukes if a large scale conflict happened. Russia defense spending is 1/10 that of the US, another factor of 10 when compared to NATO and the US.

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

...find below a very very interesting article on the crisis in The Ukraine....a nice relief from the one sided comments that are generally the norm...

http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/06/kiev-chestnuts-blossom-again/

Cheers

I know this old news but reading your story there made me think of it. Have you been keeping up with what the fans of Croatian football do during games? Seriously WTF. They are some mental midget racist sh!t going on there.

.....people here really have no idea how messed up Europe can be....I think most people here see it thru the lens of holiday postcards if you get my drift...but centuries of wars and often brutal occupations have left their marks...some of these grievances have been festering for centuries...then mix in all manner of religious differences and you have all the fixin's for hell on earth when the right spark comes along...remember talking to a visiting Dr from Sarajevo and he described how literally in an instance neighbour turned against neighbour and the country got torn apart...

....The Ukraine is a good example of being a big literal pail of nitroglycerin just waiting to blow...not much different than Iraq really...and the US of A decided, for geopolitical reasons, to give that pail a swift kick...if this goes up, at best it will be a self-contained bloodbath, at worse it could easily morph into WW3....

Cheers

I hear that fairly often "WWIII", not likely since the only European area participant is Russia. China isn't going to move that far west(can't, no ships/aircraft). Compared to NATO, Russia has a teeny capability. Yes, Putin has a big mouth but Russia would cease to exist even w/o nukes if a large scale conflict happened. Russia defense spending is 1/10 that of the US, another factor of 10 when compared to NATO and the US.

....yeah but their weapons systems work ( Earth to Bustedknuckle...spending gives one an advantage only if the stuff you spend it on actually works )...and oh I think we would all cease to exist if a large scale conflict happened ( though of course that may well depend on the relative advantages both sides have in the mineshaft gap race...)

Cheers