World Politics

[rhubroma]

Nonetheless, the agreement of the Arab league with the no-fly zone was seen as the 'sea change moment'.

I don't agree with you. Egypt's military is likely very much superior. A lot of US help went into it, lot's of US trained officers. They should be able to handle Libya on their own (although it would be quite a bit messier). Also, it would help building a national, democratic identity. Just imagine Egypt's gain in status had they done that. I believe it would have been possible to convince them within a few days. Libya is in a state of civil war, not genocide or great humanitarian crisis. There was no catch 22. Time wasn't running out (yet).

What have you now? Old colonial powers (UK, France), supported by some autocratic Arab states (UAE, Qatar) and other countries with oil interests supposedly bringing democracy and self-determination to Libya? How many people in the Arab world will see it this way? You are dreaming. This is an old fashioned grab for oil clothed as humanitarian intervention. Nothing more, nothing less, and that's precisely how it will be perceived.

You are rightly bringing up Palestine. Why is there no humanitarian intervention on behalf of Gaza? Why is Israel allowed to build settlement after settlement on the West Banks? Why is Bahrain allowed to invite foreign troops to suppress their Shia majority? Why is Yemen allowed to massacre their population during peaceful protests?

I would like to see Gaddafi disappear. The sooner the better. But this is the wrong way. Among others it makes it easier for Syria etc. to claim that their own protesters are Western puppets.

ETA: Read this from a few days ago. There's talk about Arab participation and leadership. Does, what we have now look like Arab leadership, or even participation? The 'participation' of UAE and Qatar which we're still waiting for looks more like a fig leaf than anything else. Meanwhile the Arab league has turned on a dime (not that anybody should really care about some of those opinions).

First of all, despite Egypt's supposed military might, have they got the political wherewithal to act? I mean, they haven't even sorted out a post-Mubarak state and now you want them to take care of a neighbor's crisis? Talk about dreaming.

Secondly, the humanitarian aspect is only in regards to how the Western governments have tried to sell this to their societies. I'm well aware that this is all about other concerns behind the scenes. At the same time there is a real human drama taking place within the young Arab populations. To not respond to them, is to let the force of dictatorship cancel opportunity.

No we don't have an even moderately adequate Arab response to the crisis, however, Gaddafi will never disappear if left without international resistance. The Libyans can't do it alone, I think by now at least this is clear.

As far as the rest goes, this is what happens when you have entered into a bad business and politically have no alternatives.

 

[Cobblestones]

First of all, despite Egypt's supposed military might, have they got the political wherewithal to act? I mean, they haven't even sorted out a post-Mubarak state and now you want them to take care of a neighbor's crisis? Talk about dreaming.

But that is precisely the point. There's three countries in the region which due to their size, history and cultural importance are destined to lead. These countries are Turkey, Egypt and Iran. Saudi Arabia has its place too, because of its enormous wealth and Mecca.

The new Egypt has to grow into this role, the faster the better. In particular, since the military is seen in such a positive light, it can provide identity, a place to gather behind for the new country. Yes, it would be a fast transition, but this part of the world requires rapid adjustments. To give an example: Israel was attacked one day after its founding. They didn't ask for time to adjust.

I'm not dreaming. This is the role Egypt has to fill. Without it, no progress is going to be made in the Maghreb or the Levant. Egypt led the way for the region in Camp David. Egypt has to lead again. And it has to do it right now.

ETA: The drawbacks of interventions in Libya.

 

[Darryl Webster]

The most plausble explanation for why Kenedy was assisinated Ive ever heard.
PLease..just for one moment people , take of your preconceptions carefuly massaged in so no many directions but rarely the truth and give a speach you will NEVER hear in mainstreen media a chance.
Then ask youself. Does that sound like a madman?. Eccentric dress sence perhaps but then Einstien wasnt exactly mr Style.

Just be open minded that what he sais COULD be true.
Thank you guys @ gals. Peace.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJ4u-v-PJbs

 

[Darryl Webster]

JFK speech telling the truth . My god he was a great speeker.

All you In America had a president to be proud of there.

Please, please. Listen to what would have been the greatest president youve ever had.
Im not American but this has moved me tears.

Peace: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDqGUX7P38Q

 

[Semper Fidelis]

The most plausble explanation for why Kenedy was assisinated Ive ever heard.
PLease..just for one moment people , take of your preconceptions carefuly massaged in so no many directions but rarely the truth and give a speach you will NEVER hear in mainstreen media a chance.
Then ask youself. Does that sound like a madman?. Eccentric dress sence perhaps but then Einstien wasnt exactly mr Style.

Just be open minded that what he sais COULD be true.
Thank you guys @ gals. Peace.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJ4u-v-PJbs

Yeah wow... it is wonderful and stupid. Please .....be open minded ...What he (says) Could be pure bull****. Thank you guys and gals....Peace...

That speech was about as much bull**** as I could handle. Please do not post such bull anymore.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

JFK speech telling the truth . My god he was a great speeker.

All you In America had a president to be proud of there.

Please, please. Listen to what would have been the greatest president youve ever had.
Im not American but this has moved me tears.

Peace: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDqGUX7P38Q

Propaganda video. It is a great speech which is exploited by some asshat who is trying to make it current.

 

[Darryl Webster]

Propaganda video. It is a great speech which is exploited by some asshat who is trying to make it current.

It clear were poles apart. But I notice , as to be exspected, you dont discuss the content of iether Gadaffi or Kenedy`s speach in any way shape or form but go in straight for the " rubishing" .

Properganda has done its job well on you.

Very sad.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

It clear were poles apart. But I notice , as to be exspected, you dont discuss the content of iether Gadaffi or Kenedy`s speach in any way shape or form but go in straight for the " rubishing" .

Properganda has done its job well on you.

Very sad.

Yeah well any time a video calls for dissenters as one being 2pac it just ruins the message.

Anytime a dumb faced gaddafi starts to speak it makes the message become ...half assed.
Remember Gaddafi ordered his fair share of terrorist strikes. That makes his speech and message ...bull****.

 

[Darryl Webster]

Yeah well any time a video calls for dissenters as one being 2pac it just ruins the message.

Anytime a dumb faced gaddafi starts to speak it makes the message become ...half assed.
Remember Gaddafi ordered his fair share of terrorist strikes. That makes his speech and message ...bull****.

In your opinion....cus thats all your offering, no constructive discussion, just bile. Sad aint it , people are diying and rather than enter into a mature , honest, considered debate you rather "score points" and obviously believe the alusion of Democacy ....Its scary not to I guess.

Obviously Western forces dont indulge in terrorism in your world do they?.
There muders are "justified" in the name of peace and security.
Im sure you feel very safe.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

In your opinion....cus thats all your offering, no constructive discussion, just bile. Sad aint it , people are diying and rather than enter into a mature , honest, considered debate you rather "score points" and obviously believe the alusion of Democacy ....Its scary not to I guess.

Obviously Western forces dont indulge in terrorism in your world do they?.
There muders are "justified" in the name of peace and security.
Im sure you feel very safe.

Obviously your not going to change my opinion regarding a idiot like Gaddafi. It is sad that I do not care about scoring points but have an opinion. That is troubling you that I will not agree that some stupid terrorist like Gaddafi is not on my list of people that I will listen to reason.

It is scary that someone like that is taken more seriously than anyone else. I am so glad you sat around waiting for some poor ******* to answer you trolling posts. You were looking for an argument and guess what ....

I feel safe that people with your opinion does not rule the world. Yes I do fell safe.

umm errr.. in your words...PEACE.

 

[Darryl Webster]

obviously your not going to change my opinion regarding a idiot like gaddafi. It is sad that i do not care about scoring points but have an opinion. That is troubling you that i will not agree that some stupid terrorist like gaddafi is not on my list of people that i will listen to reason.

It is scary that someone like that is taken more seriously than anyone else. I am so glad you sat around waiting for some poor ******* to answer you trolling posts. You were looking for an argument and guess what ....

I feel safe that people with your opinion does not rule the world. Yes i do fell safe.

Umm errr.. In your words...peace.

:d:d:d:d:d:d

 

[Hugh Januss]

It clear were poles apart. But I notice , as to be exspected, you dont discuss the content of iether Gadaffi or Kenedy`s speach in any way shape or form but go in straight for the " rubishing" .

Properganda has done its job well on you.

Very sad.

#1 Gadaffi is 100% pure batsh*t frickin crazy with a bad dye job. He makes Sarah Palin seem nearly sane. Just a few more "leaders" like these two and none of us would have anything to worry about anymore.
#2 Please for the love of god get spell check, I will send you $20 by paypal if need be.

Thanks, and peace to all.

 

[patricknd]

#1 Gadaffi is 100% pure batsh*t frickin crazy with a bad dye job. He makes Sarah Palin seem nearly sane. Just a few more "leaders" like these two and none of us would have anything to worry about anymore.
#2 Please for the love of god get spell check, I will send you $20 by paypal if need be.

Thanks, and peace to all.

Can I get in on that spell check action? I could use $20.00

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Can I get in on that spell check action? I could use $20.00

nahhhh man .unless you start calling it PROPERganda....then NO....you can not get in on the 20 bones...action.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Can I get in on that spell check action? I could use $20.00

Sure but I don't like to use paypal, just go ahead and PM me your account # and routing # and I'll send it right on over.

 

[Anonymous]

Alright, I hate to take this stuff personal, but I worked in passages from John Lennon and Rodney King (in the same line) a post a few pages back and nobody made even the slightest comment. I don't expect a lot from you guys but that was good... and all I heard was <crickets>.

I'm not feeling the love anymore.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Oh, now you went and hurt my feelings.

Not to worry tho... I have retired from this thread is all.

Alright, I hate to take this stuff personal, but I worked in passages from John Lennon and Rodney King (in the same line) a post a few pages back and nobody made even the slightest comment. I don't expect a lot from you guys but that was good... and all I heard was <crickets>.

I'm not feeling the love anymore.

How can we miss you when you won't go away?

 

[rhubroma]

But that is precisely the point. There's three countries in the region which due to their size, history and cultural importance are destined to lead. These countries are Turkey, Egypt and Iran. Saudi Arabia has its place too, because of its enormous wealth and Mecca.

The new Egypt has to grow into this role, the faster the better. In particular, since the military is seen in such a positive light, it can provide identity, a place to gather behind for the new country. Yes, it would be a fast transition, but this part of the world requires rapid adjustments. To give an example: Israel was attacked one day after its founding. They didn't ask for time to adjust.

I'm not dreaming. This is the role Egypt has to fill. Without it, no progress is going to be made in the Maghreb or the Levant. Egypt led the way for the region in Camp David. Egypt has to lead again. And it has to do it right now.

ETA: The drawbacks of interventions in Libya.

Ok, I'm all for it. But is this possible, realistically, and under the present conditions in the region? How will the US and especially Israel respond to the Arab primavera, that is a flowering of democratic states that have complete self-determination, without external interference within their state affairs (as has not been the case till now)? How will the West handle a rise in leadership, also military, by any one state in the region?

You talked about Bahrein and Saudi Arabia before, well if these states are any indication, then Egypt hasn't got a very decent chance at paving the way for much needed reforms in the region within an independent, sub-regional context.

This debate began, for me, in pondering about an immediate and fundamental issue: namely that the Western states that sold Gaddafi the weapons that he is now using to bomb his own civilian population, have a moral obligation to intervene, in some way or another, on their behalf. I don't like military interventions, however, Gaddafi needs to be stopped from massacring his people.

How this is to be done besides bombing his militia I wouldn't know, only that it needs to be done, to protect the civilians who are prey to his megalomania and tyranny. I think Turkey, Egypt and Saudi Arabia should definitely be part of the actions against him, however, as I have indicated, there are as many problems with this as there are by a US, British and French intervention.

Thus the big mess. And thanks for the Al Jazeera link.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

...Gaddafi needs to be stopped from massacring his people.

Really? And where do we stop? Where does this judgement, and execution end? What about Congo? Cameroon? Equatorial Guinea? Saudi Arabia for that matter. Shouldn't we then stop them from what they do to their own people?

The United States is broke, more than broke. We have our own horrors of injustice here, just watch the damned news every night. Poverty, crime, etc. It's as bad as we quietly say it is, worse. We just try to put on a happy face and pretend it's going to get better, while our country slowly crumbles before our eyes. We're already stuck in two more ill advised wars started for similar "moral" reasons, and now this. Where does it stop?

 

[Darryl Webster]

Really? And where do we stop? Where does this judgement, and execution end? What about Congo? Cameroon? Equatorial Guinea? Saudi Arabia for that matter. Shouldn't we then stop them from what they do to their own people?

The United States is broke, more than broke. We have our own horrors of injustice here, just watch the damned news every night. Poverty, crime, etc. It's as bad as we quietly say it is, worse. We just try to put on a happy face and pretend it's going to get better, while our country slowly crumbles before our eyes. We're already stuck in two more ill advised wars started for similar "moral" reasons, and now this. Where does it stop?

Well said Alp.

 

[rhubroma]

Really? And where do we stop? Where does this judgement, and execution end? What about Congo? Cameroon? Equatorial Guinea? Saudi Arabia for that matter. Shouldn't we then stop them from what they do to their own people?

The United States is broke, more than broke. We have our own horrors of injustice here, just watch the damned news every night. Poverty, crime, etc. It's as bad as we quietly say it is, worse. We just try to put on a happy face and pretend it's going to get better, while our country slowly crumbles before our eyes. We're already stuck in two more ill advised wars started for similar "moral" reasons, and now this. Where does it stop?

I know it seems rather remote what's going on in Libya from the States, however, the perception in the Mediterranean is much more immediate. The Italians are asking themselves whether or not Gaddafi can strike civilian targets within the Boot, for example. And Italy certainly is aware of the role it has played in the creation of Libya during the fascist era, which adds further fuel to the political debates.

The US, like France, Italy, Britain, wasn't so concerned about the arms it has sold to the various sultans of the Maghreb and Middle East, yet this should be a reminder of what terrible consequences the arms trade business really brings about.

In fact we should have stopped ourselves from arming these regimes, but the business and political logic didn't allow for that. And what of the US's and the UN's self-assumed role as global police force, especially after the Iraq invasion? Is that only applicable to bringing bloody dictators to task who rule in areas where our oil interests determine which mass murderer is to be taken down and who isn't? It's all one big farce!

The poverty and injustices in North Africa, as in many places elsewhere throughout the globe, far exceeds these issues in the US, so you won't find the world throwing a pity-party for America, especially since these issues have been self-induced through its political and business praxis. In other words, in contrast with the economic and political conditions of the Maghreb where there have been as many external causes brought on by Western influences within the region, America's present difficulty has been wholly caused by internal affairs. We don't have foreign states providing military and economic assistance in support of the ruling class in Washington. I think, therefore, whatever our response, the concerns should be with those who are the victims of the brutality of their leaders, which we (the West) in part share in responsibility, and not focussing inward on all our problems.

Honestly I'm not sure, have serious doubts, about what we're doing. But the issue is, if you will permit me, with those being brutalized by a mad dictator who is desperate to hold onto his power, not us.

 

[Darryl Webster]

Honestly I'm not sure, have serious doubts, about what we're doing. But the issue is, if you will permit me, with those being brutalized by a mad dictator who is desperate to hold onto his power, not us.

Agree with all your points rhubrama but this kinda made me ponder...much the same descrition could have been applied to Bush and his dreadfull riging of the ballot.

BTW,,to spelling checkers .if a spelling mistake is so bad ya dont understad what im saying ask....im dislexic....altarnativly be playground **** takers..your choice.

 

[patricknd]

Sure but I don't like to use paypal, just go ahead and PM me your account # and routing # and I'll send it right on over.

are you from nigeria?

 

[rhubroma]

At this point I have revised my original position in favor of something embraced by cobblestoned, as the lesser of two evils, and in negotiating a cease fire with further talks to establish independence for some of the provinces. I don't actually believe that this will work, but, in the final analysis, it seems more agreeable than a military intervention. But this has nothing to do with the conservative sentiment in the US on why not to intervene.

A couple of comments in today's la Repubblica:

The Arab League: "Mission Beyond the Limits"

....Now, it isn't as if Gaddafi has all of a sudden become popular in the eyes of the Arab world, where he has always been rather cordially despised. It's rather that the Western intervention to bring the Libyan leader down has brought about the usual suspicions having to do with the West's undisclosed motives, for example toward Libyan oil, beyond which there's the direct accusation toward the US and Europe of practicing a double or triple standard according to convenience. As in the case with Bahrain, where last week a military force intervened at the request of the Gulf Union, a Saudi dominated block, to help King Ahmed bin Issa al Kahalifi to repress the democratic revolt of the Shiite majority, while Washington and Brussels did absolutely nothing.

A man who is absolutely not to be suspected of being a Gaddafi sympathizer such as Hezbollah leader Nassan Nasrahllah (we remeber that Gaddafi was accused by Hezbollah of having made disappear the historic leader of the Lebanese Shiites, the Immam Mussa Sadr), said on TV: "Many people have declared their support for the popular protests in Egypt and Libya, but when Bahrain is involved, their ink dries up. What's the difference between Al Khalifa's regime and that of Mubarak's of Gaddafi's?" In other words, why do the US and Europe support the protests in Egypt and Libya, while in Bahrein they close their eyes?

Of course the last question is rhetorical in the utmost.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Alright, I hate to take this stuff personal, but I worked in passages from John Lennon and Rodney King (in the same line) a post a few pages back and nobody made even the slightest comment. I don't expect a lot from you guys but that was good... and all I heard was <crickets>.

I'm not feeling the love anymore.

Dude I saw this "All I'm saying is, give peace a chance. I mean, can't we all just get along?" But was so shocked that I just thought you might have fell head first into an Belgi Triple....

I did not this you was serious. My bad ...My bad....

@patrick. watch out giving your personal info to Hugh J.

This is President Obama's WAR for OIL. "This aggression will not stand Mannnnnn"