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Andynonomous said:
Le breton said:
Learn French please
OK, a few highlights then.
So this is Pierre de Mondenard. If you don't already know his long relationship with anti-doping matters, go look him up...I'm not going to provide the original French for comparison here, so any errors or over-egging of the pudding on my part can be corrected by another francophone.
Doping: "Football is the world champion of omerta"
On Noah:
Noah's right to implicate the Spanish. The presumption of innocence is rubbish. We can talk about legitimate suspicion here given the accumulation of doping scandals, mostly revealed by the police. History tells us that every time a country dominates a sport on the global level, there's doping behind it. We saw it with China in swimming at the beginning of the 90s, Italy in cycling, Jamaica recently with a whole string of sprinters getting busted, Russia, the US ... In this whole thing with Noah, the problem is neither him nor even the Spanish, is the inability of the anti-doping establishment to identify the cheats.
... next bit upcoming ...
How can the anti-doping controls be improved?
The number one problem is this: the sportspeople are using substances the labs can't find and the labs are looking for the substances the sportspeople no longer use. It's always been like that ever since the first anti-doping legislation was introduced. David Douillet [current FR Minister for Sport] reacts politically when he says that we have the best labs in the world, but the Germans are going to say the same thing, the Americans too. Every time there are these shock announcements. The other problem is that the scientific community is always off-message. In the 1960s, they talked about anabolic steroids like they were vitamins.
What role should the sports organisations play?
No international sporting federation can prove that its competitions are clean. They like to credit themselves for the few doping positives and take that to mean that there's no doping in their sport. That's hypocrisy. We've had fifty years of that system, but it doesn't work. The world of sport sanctions the sportspeople that keep it going. It's like asking the fox to guard the chicken coop.
... more in a moment ....
The number one problem is this: the sportspeople are using substances the labs can't find and the labs are looking for the substances the sportspeople no longer use. It's always been like that ever since the first anti-doping legislation was introduced. David Douillet [current FR Minister for Sport] reacts politically when he says that we have the best labs in the world, but the Germans are going to say the same thing, the Americans too. Every time there are these shock announcements. The other problem is that the scientific community is always off-message. In the 1960s, they talked about anabolic steroids like they were vitamins.
What role should the sports organisations play?
No international sporting federation can prove that its competitions are clean. They like to credit themselves for the few doping positives and take that to mean that there's no doping in their sport. That's hypocrisy. We've had fifty years of that system, but it doesn't work. The world of sport sanctions the sportspeople that keep it going. It's like asking the fox to guard the chicken coop.
... more in a moment ....
Is the public more tolerant [of doping] in certain countries?
The public depends on media opinion. I don't think there is such a thing as public opinion. The Contador scandal is the best example of this. When he tested positive ... the press mocked his contaminated meat story. Then when Contador turns up for the next Tour, he's whistled by the majority of the crowd there. Contrary to the whole world, I believed his version for some very specific reasons. He got busted on a rest day, but for what he's on to be effective, he needs to take it during competition. And if he wants the effects of it to be anabolic, he needs to be doing it for several weeks. So when this argument was explained, the public actually ended up being more tolerant of him.
What motivates sportspeople to dope?
Some believe that it's the money that it brings them. Whatever. What really gives athletes their buzz is winning. It's the competition itself that encourages doping. And doping exists in all sorts of human activities where the individual can rank him/herself thanks to his/her professional, social, political, physical, mental and even sexual performance. White collar executives, politicians, students doing exams ... even aphrodisiacs, that's doping under the the duvet. Cheating is a part of human beings.
... more upcoming ...
The public depends on media opinion. I don't think there is such a thing as public opinion. The Contador scandal is the best example of this. When he tested positive ... the press mocked his contaminated meat story. Then when Contador turns up for the next Tour, he's whistled by the majority of the crowd there. Contrary to the whole world, I believed his version for some very specific reasons. He got busted on a rest day, but for what he's on to be effective, he needs to take it during competition. And if he wants the effects of it to be anabolic, he needs to be doing it for several weeks. So when this argument was explained, the public actually ended up being more tolerant of him.
What motivates sportspeople to dope?
Some believe that it's the money that it brings them. Whatever. What really gives athletes their buzz is winning. It's the competition itself that encourages doping. And doping exists in all sorts of human activities where the individual can rank him/herself thanks to his/her professional, social, political, physical, mental and even sexual performance. White collar executives, politicians, students doing exams ... even aphrodisiacs, that's doping under the the duvet. Cheating is a part of human beings.
... more upcoming ...
But for cycling, for example, what about the example of the superhuman efforts demanded from riders...
That's not what leads to doping. Look at the 100 metres sprint. According to Victor Conte, the Balco lab boss and supplier of doping products to American athletes, the majority of finalists in the 100 metres at the Sydney Olympics were "prepared". Now the 100 metres is about putting yourself at the limit of intense effort for a maximum of only about 10 seconds. In truth, doping is so efficient - different scientific studies have shown us how true that is - that the special high-performance regimes oblige all sportspeople who really want to be in the media and on posters to dope, even those who, at the beginning of their career had professed to turn their back on it.
Is anti-doping least stringent in the US?
The desire to win exacerbates the use of doping products. That goes way back. The Cold War was an arms race of weapons of mass destruction but it was the same thing with domination of the world of sport. Here was a means to show that one's own regime was better than the other. The Americans and the Russians and the East Germans in turn were particularly prepared. But the Americans have become aware of all this and now there are stricter controls. The Balco affair made Americans understand that they were not always the strongest for purely sporting reasons. So things are happening slowly, but they are happening.
... more upcoming ...
That's not what leads to doping. Look at the 100 metres sprint. According to Victor Conte, the Balco lab boss and supplier of doping products to American athletes, the majority of finalists in the 100 metres at the Sydney Olympics were "prepared". Now the 100 metres is about putting yourself at the limit of intense effort for a maximum of only about 10 seconds. In truth, doping is so efficient - different scientific studies have shown us how true that is - that the special high-performance regimes oblige all sportspeople who really want to be in the media and on posters to dope, even those who, at the beginning of their career had professed to turn their back on it.
Is anti-doping least stringent in the US?
The desire to win exacerbates the use of doping products. That goes way back. The Cold War was an arms race of weapons of mass destruction but it was the same thing with domination of the world of sport. Here was a means to show that one's own regime was better than the other. The Americans and the Russians and the East Germans in turn were particularly prepared. But the Americans have become aware of all this and now there are stricter controls. The Balco affair made Americans understand that they were not always the strongest for purely sporting reasons. So things are happening slowly, but they are happening.
... more upcoming ...
Football seems to have been saved from doping scandals
Football is the world champion of omerta. Recently, the Belgian international Bertrand Crasson, who played for Napoli between 1996 and 1998, told of how he used to be on two drips a week. Of course, the trainers of that period deny the existence of these practices. Bortolo Mutti, team boss in 1997, defended himself by saying: "Drips were not part of our culture, neither of mine nor that of my colleagues." In order to minimise what Crasson had said, another trainer from back then said that "I don't remember this player. That was a long time ago. There was absolutely no doping at Napoli. Let's not joke about it." Extraordinary how they never know anything! However, the past is educational for the future. In this way, in 1958, a former footballer at Boulogne, Gerardo Ottini, who later became a doctor, led an enquiry on Italian football. It showed that 27% of Italian footballers were on amphetamines, 62% on heart or respiratory stimulants and 68% were on hormones or anabolic steroids. And all this in 1958! For only one match and two training sessions a week. Today in 2011 professional footballers have two or three matches per week and at the minimum one training session per day and they're supposed to be on mineral water?
... more upcoming...
Football is the world champion of omerta. Recently, the Belgian international Bertrand Crasson, who played for Napoli between 1996 and 1998, told of how he used to be on two drips a week. Of course, the trainers of that period deny the existence of these practices. Bortolo Mutti, team boss in 1997, defended himself by saying: "Drips were not part of our culture, neither of mine nor that of my colleagues." In order to minimise what Crasson had said, another trainer from back then said that "I don't remember this player. That was a long time ago. There was absolutely no doping at Napoli. Let's not joke about it." Extraordinary how they never know anything! However, the past is educational for the future. In this way, in 1958, a former footballer at Boulogne, Gerardo Ottini, who later became a doctor, led an enquiry on Italian football. It showed that 27% of Italian footballers were on amphetamines, 62% on heart or respiratory stimulants and 68% were on hormones or anabolic steroids. And all this in 1958! For only one match and two training sessions a week. Today in 2011 professional footballers have two or three matches per week and at the minimum one training session per day and they're supposed to be on mineral water?
... more upcoming...
The Juventus affair did make a lot of noise
The mediatisation of this affair was a lot less than we had in cycling for example. The French press didn't go very far, whilst for cycling, some of them were practically rifling the drawers in the UCI offices. An icon like Zidane was saved. The press didn't ask him anything about it. Nobody wanted to upset or offend him for fear of being denied access to him thereafter. On a TV show, Johnny Halliday [a famous French singer, now ancient but still rocking] declared that he went and had his blood changed a couple of times a year "on the advice of my friend Zizou [Zidane's nickname]", who was doing that himself twice a year. A journalist dared to ask Zidane about it and he retorted that he had never gone to this clinic with Johnny. That's a pretty weak defence...
Interview: Maxime Goldbaum
Bad translation: L'arriviste
Source: Le Monde
The mediatisation of this affair was a lot less than we had in cycling for example. The French press didn't go very far, whilst for cycling, some of them were practically rifling the drawers in the UCI offices. An icon like Zidane was saved. The press didn't ask him anything about it. Nobody wanted to upset or offend him for fear of being denied access to him thereafter. On a TV show, Johnny Halliday [a famous French singer, now ancient but still rocking] declared that he went and had his blood changed a couple of times a year "on the advice of my friend Zizou [Zidane's nickname]", who was doing that himself twice a year. A journalist dared to ask Zidane about it and he retorted that he had never gone to this clinic with Johnny. That's a pretty weak defence...
Interview: Maxime Goldbaum
Bad translation: L'arriviste
Source: Le Monde
Merci beaucoup.
It is interesting that this doping specialist would believe Contador's story, because "taking clenbuterol on a rest day would give him no performance increase". When most people say clen is "used in training to build lean muscle", giving more credence to the blood transfusion scenario.
It is interesting that this doping specialist would believe Contador's story, because "taking clenbuterol on a rest day would give him no performance increase". When most people say clen is "used in training to build lean muscle", giving more credence to the blood transfusion scenario.
Andynonomous said:
I think what de Mondenard meant was that the general press and public tend to conflate positive tests with the contemporaneous use of the substance, since he has complained about this before.
de Mondenard believed Contador when the latter said he had not used Clenbuterol on the rest day, whereas the general press and the public did not.
L'arriviste said:
Thanks again.
So de Mondenard's understanding of the situation is not necessarily inconsistent with a tainted transfusion.
Andynonomous said:
You could say that, on this point at least, he (or Le Monde) is being very careful with his words. Until January 2012, anyway.
Hinault backs up Noah
http://es.eurosport.yahoo.com/06122011/47/hinault-tambien-acusa-dopaje.html
some remarkably naive comments by Hinault included, unfortunately
http://es.eurosport.yahoo.com/06122011/47/hinault-tambien-acusa-dopaje.html
some remarkably naive comments by Hinault included, unfortunately
A few words come to mind when reading Yannick's opinion in Le Monde:
Hypocrisy: The condition of a person pretending to be something he is not, especially in the area of morals. Yannick's son is in the NBA, a basketball competition known for refusing to carry out any off and on competition testing. That alone (for example) should've, logically, warranted more of the guy's attention but… he's fixated on the "smaller fish". He is very, very careful and calculative in what he says. He doesn't want to bite more than he can chew, no doubt counseled by the Le Monde lawyers. Well, that and the fact that NBA would bite back immediately ($$$$).
Demagogy: The art and practice of gaining popularity by arousing the emotions, passions, and prejudices of the people. Yannick's comments/opinions are presented without proof, hence he is not accusing anyone of anything, he is merely seeking to provoke a negative reaction towards Spanish athletes and their subsequent performances, perpetually clouding any success under the veil of doping.
Witch-hunt: A rigorous campaign to round up or expose dissenters on the pretext of safeguarding the welfare of the public. Pretty much everyone in The Clinict engages in the act of hunting witches, and in the process making some really comical observations.
Slander: Defamation in some transient form, as by spoken words, gestures, etc.
Defamatory: Injurious to someone's name or reputation.
Calumny: The malicious utterance of false charges or misrepresentation.
What ties me up in a tight knot is not this French knucklehead's opinion (after all, we all have one), it's the space he was given by Le Monde to spread what is obviously demagogy 101. Don't get me wrong, I know there is doping in Spanish sports, the same as there is doping in French or German or American sports. Thus, Yannick's "beef" is not with doping per se, it's with "doped" Spanish athletes. But the fact of the matter is that the anti-doping fight in Spain is getting nowhere because the ones being busted are simply not talking. Yes, this may lead people to believe there is complacency, and even complicity, on the part of the Spanish justice system, but there is very, very little they can do because these people are very well organized. It certainly IS NOT an institutional problem and there is an obvious acquiescence on the part of the media, but make no mistake, the Spanish justice system wants to put these people in jail as much as you do.
Having said this, to make such blanket statements, such as Yannick's in Le Monde, is just inexcusable. He doesn't even attempt to make a point by proving what he says. He just connects dots all over the place and blames no one, just "Spanish sports", and by default, Spanish athletes.
Imagine what the French would be saying if El Mundo decides to let an idiot publish an opinion titled The French have a problem with chauvinism. And don't get me started on how the French police and judges let ETA terrorists get away (a much bigger problem). Just imagine.
I dislike Le Monde a lot more for letting these individuals spread what is basically a watered down version of envy.
Hypocrisy: The condition of a person pretending to be something he is not, especially in the area of morals. Yannick's son is in the NBA, a basketball competition known for refusing to carry out any off and on competition testing. That alone (for example) should've, logically, warranted more of the guy's attention but… he's fixated on the "smaller fish". He is very, very careful and calculative in what he says. He doesn't want to bite more than he can chew, no doubt counseled by the Le Monde lawyers. Well, that and the fact that NBA would bite back immediately ($$$$).
Demagogy: The art and practice of gaining popularity by arousing the emotions, passions, and prejudices of the people. Yannick's comments/opinions are presented without proof, hence he is not accusing anyone of anything, he is merely seeking to provoke a negative reaction towards Spanish athletes and their subsequent performances, perpetually clouding any success under the veil of doping.
Witch-hunt: A rigorous campaign to round up or expose dissenters on the pretext of safeguarding the welfare of the public. Pretty much everyone in The Clinict engages in the act of hunting witches, and in the process making some really comical observations.
Slander: Defamation in some transient form, as by spoken words, gestures, etc.
Defamatory: Injurious to someone's name or reputation.
Calumny: The malicious utterance of false charges or misrepresentation.
What ties me up in a tight knot is not this French knucklehead's opinion (after all, we all have one), it's the space he was given by Le Monde to spread what is obviously demagogy 101. Don't get me wrong, I know there is doping in Spanish sports, the same as there is doping in French or German or American sports. Thus, Yannick's "beef" is not with doping per se, it's with "doped" Spanish athletes. But the fact of the matter is that the anti-doping fight in Spain is getting nowhere because the ones being busted are simply not talking. Yes, this may lead people to believe there is complacency, and even complicity, on the part of the Spanish justice system, but there is very, very little they can do because these people are very well organized. It certainly IS NOT an institutional problem and there is an obvious acquiescence on the part of the media, but make no mistake, the Spanish justice system wants to put these people in jail as much as you do.
Having said this, to make such blanket statements, such as Yannick's in Le Monde, is just inexcusable. He doesn't even attempt to make a point by proving what he says. He just connects dots all over the place and blames no one, just "Spanish sports", and by default, Spanish athletes.
Imagine what the French would be saying if El Mundo decides to let an idiot publish an opinion titled The French have a problem with chauvinism. And don't get me started on how the French police and judges let ETA terrorists get away (a much bigger problem). Just imagine.
I dislike Le Monde a lot more for letting these individuals spread what is basically a watered down version of envy.
Señ said:
Seems they have done very very little... until recently. Maybe it was for political reasons but for sure to collect, to store, to transport and to reinfuse blood outside institutionnal officine is surely a threat against health of people. So illegal.
Hopefully they have discovered it with a new gouvernment.
And what about Manzano talking about who he met at Fuentes' office?
poupou said:
That's because there wasn't legislation in place. You can't open up a macro-operation, like Operación Puerto, unless you know FOR SURE you can bust people and put them in jail. If you do not know the intricacies and the granularity of a (any) justice system then I suggest you inform yourself first and then pass judgement.
You're mixing pears and apples here. Doping is sanctioned by the sporting bodies. Walking around with 5.000 vials of Deca or GH is illegal. No one in their right minds will tell you differently. But to insinuate that the Spanish justice system didn't do enough or avoided investigating crimes is of the frigginly moronic kind.
Did you read what I said? The people they are busting are not talking. And without any birds you do not have a case. So, at most, you will get a decoy storing 5.000 vials of GH in their house and, at most, that person will get a couple of weeks in jail. Another problem is that the majority of these individuals are not profesional, hence you can't take their license away and they are free to go back to dealing roids right after they get out of jail.
So... all in all the Spanish authorities have is a bunch of uncooperative roid dealers. You can put them under surveillance, which the Spanish police have done with some individuals, but these people are smart and pass on the dealing to someone else without the police knowing. Dead end.
Hey, if that lets you sleep at night...
I don't know who Manzano saw at Fuentes' office. And I don't particularly care. Is that very fact convincing enough for you to believe the Spanish police are bought out or hiding something though? If that's the case then that would explain many things.
Senor Contador,Señ said:
I have read what you had written, most of your statement is invalid.
There were civil laws to put under arrest Fuentes,
there wer at least one rider ready to cooperate,
and Guardia civil had done an impressive job to catch those guys and were disappointed by political protection of the alleged culprits. Thus it's a will to hide doping affairs to protect Spanish athletes especially football and tennis players.
Andynonomous said:
Don't generalize because I will light you up like a Christmas tree...
You've been warned.
poupou said:
Pardon me but I do not agree, YOU are wrong.
I did not say that. What I said, and I was very clear in this, is that there still isn't sufficient legislation in place, in relation to dopin, in Spain in order to effectively disband, or at least disperse, doping rings.
The legislation in place RIGHT NOW will only get the small fish. People like Eufemiano Fuentes or Dr. Ferrari go to great lengths to cover their tracks but they can still be busted for minor stuff, provided there is legislation in place.
So, in essence, what you will get is Eufemiano to say, over the phone, stuff like "the sauce is ready" or the police may aprehend some cycling director as they walk out of Fuentes' clinic with a suitcase full of blood bags or even raid his clinic and find tons of PEDS and bags full of blood, but the fact of the matter is that saying "the sauce is ready" is not incriminating, the person carrying the juiced up bloodbags will not snitch on Fuentes and Fuentes is a doctor, hence he is, by law, allowed to store PEDS and bags full of blood. The most they can frame him for is storing blood bags in unsanitary conditions. But the fact of the matter is that even a full assault of The Law will not do it unless they catch him in the act of doping.
Now, how this inability to frame anyone within these small, well organized doping cells (apart from the small fish) translates into your belief that there is some sort of complicity and acquiescence on the part of the Spanish justice system is really demagogy and ignorance. Again, I suggest you inform yourself first and then tell us your informed opinion.
As far as WE ALL know there is only one rider willing to cooperate: Jesús Manzano. And, by all accounts, from a lawyer's perspective, he is the type of person you DO NOT want to put on the stand because he will ruin your case in the blink of an eye.
Political protection? WHAT?!
The police's job, in this case the Guardia Civil, were in charge of carrying out a court order to raid Fuente's clandestine clinic(s). The Guardia Civil would NEVER comment (as to whether they are happy with or "disappointed") on anything that has to do with a court order because that would mean immediate dismissal and a huge slap in the face.
No, it's YOUR will to believe that.
Señ said:
not true. It is MY WILL to believe that Spain's dominance in cycling, football and tennis is genuine. But I simply can't. Nor can the majority of sane sportfans.
In fact, attitudes like yours only reenforce the view that nationalistic sentiments in Spain stand in the way of their dealing with doping.
Ah, right, everybody's just jealous of spain.
time to take off the red and yellow eyepatches.
sniper said:not true. It is MY WILL to believe that Spain's dominance in cycling, football and tennis is genuine. But I simply can't. Nor can the majority of sane sportfans.
In fact, attitudes like yours only reenforce the view that nationalistic sentiments in Spain stand in the way of their dealing with doping.
Ah, right, everybody's just jealous of spain.
time to take off the red and yellow eyepatches.
Note: I didn't say Spanish athletes do not dope, in fact I've stated the opposite. I also said that athletes of other nations also dope and are suspiciously spared the scrutiny. At most, when it comes to non-Spanish athletes, people will zero-in on the athlete and discuss what he/she may be taking (for example Novak Djokovic vs. all Serbians dope, et cetera), which is sort of the correct way of going about it.
In the case of Spanish athletes it's a free for all. Spanish athletes are doped (hence assumed to be a truism). the Spanish government is in on it. The Spanish police are in on it. THIS IS WRONG. JUST DEAD WRONG. It's called demagogy.
And it is not my will to engage in this. Note I speak on only myself. I do not make blanket statements, which is why I responded to poupou the way I did.
Capisci?
Señ said:
ok, i see.
but the general responses to yannick noah's statements that i read in spanish newsoutlets were just plain ludicrous.
my opinion:
no, he's not driven by jealousy.
no, he didn't say it because he's french or because french don't want to see foreigners win in roland garros/tdf.
he said it because it's plain obvious that the spanish current hegemony in different branches of sports were they used to be mediocre (including football) is thanks to a very effective doping culture backed up by a very tolerant doping policy.
Go tell Christophe Lemaitre, as an example of the french track and field team.
Go tell french Champions League teams.
Go tell french Champions League teams.
sniper said:
I don't care if he's driven by jealousy or not, he can complain about anything he wants. What CANNOT happen though, even if it's commentary, is to have one of the biggest, if not the biggest, French newspapers lend its space to the first idiot that comes along and decides to put the Spanish authorities into question without any proof.
He can say all he wants about Contador and Nadal. I don't care, but when you start doubting the Spanish institutions, and what's worse, the Spanish people's opinion on the subject you are rightfully begging to be insulted. I guarantee you that if he does apologize he will not be visiting Spain any time soon. And if he does, chances are he will be going back with a few broken bones.
I, for one, doubt that the best Spanish athletes are not doping. But neither do many other athletes of many other nationalities. Including France. Including Yannick's son. His commentary is BS. He's a hypocrite and I refuse to read people who point the mistakes in others but are unable to point to their own mistakes.
If doping is what motivated Noah to write that commentary, logic would have told him not to look that far: Ask your own son homey!!
I really do not care about what people say about what the French think. I simply have better things to do and worry about. However, that France loves its losers is a fact recognized by many non-Frenchies. Ask Americans about the French and you'll see what they think. Ask the English.
And lastly, it's not that Spain has a tolerant attitude towards doping, it does not treat dopers as criminals. Two diffent things.
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