108th Liège-Bastogne-Liège: 24 April, 2022

[Extinction]

I haven't said one time that Remcos effort wasn't great. That was you and other using straw man arguments to claim that I did. There wasn't any hidden agenda or attempt to discredit Remco's race. It is just you who choose to interpret it that way and grinding on about it again and again even though I've explained a half dozen times that is not the case.

I never said you never said Remco's exploit wasn't great, but, given the rest of your commentary, questioned your motives.

 

[Potomac]

Gosh, reading all the above these few pages. How will we ever determine who is the better cyclist?

 

[Big Doopie]

Gosh, reading all the above these few pages. How will we ever determine who is the better cyclist?

oh that's simple.

it is whatever i say it is.

pog

then rog, ala, vdp, wva and now remco.

i fully expect everyone to agree with me.

;-)

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Race speed is a terrible metric for top-end field quality in a race where it's domestique tempo for approximately 90% of the race. Evenepoel would have needed to go a full two minutes slower, which is a lot over 30 kilometres, for the race to drop from second to third on the all-time fastest edition ranking (the 1963 edition is still faster).


Field quality is brought up for almost every big race, so if there's one race where every edition is analysed to a ridiculous extent on here it's the Tour.

So your argument is that field quality is a thing, but that it's not a valid and/or valuable point of discussion because 'you can bring it up anytime'? That's... a take.

Haven't read any discussions downplaying Pog's wins due to a lack of competition in the Tour. But maybe i didn't linger in those threads long enough post-race.
And you keep twisting what i said. I was talking about bias. Go back to the initial post i responded to. Posters coming in claiming the field was not strong enough in race X, but they are nowhere to be seen making the same argument for race Y.

Wout on paper should have been be able to make a similar effort. His TTing is superb, he can certainly put down a lot of power for a very long time, and he's punchier than Remco so he can get away solo. Not quite sure why he was lacking a tiny bit yesterday.

As a big Van Aert fan, there is exactly one long solo i remember him doing, and that was in the TDF stage, from a break with a bunch of guys who weren't riding for GC. His only other solo wins were Strade and Omloop. Both of them were solo's of exactly 13km. I have yet to see Van Aert do a 30k solo in a 260km race. He might be an elite TT'er, that doesn't mean he can do a TT at the end of a long hard race. I'm sure we would have seen Ganna or Küng do great solo's if it were that easy.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

Haven't read any discussions downplaying Pog's wins due to a lack of competition in the Tour. But maybe i didn't linger in those threads long enough post-race.
And you keep twisting what i said. I was talking about bias. Go back to the initial post i responded to. Posters coming in claiming the field was not strong enough in race X, but they are nowhere to be seen making the same argument for race Y.

...because posters think the field was weak in race X but not race Y? That's not bias, that's called an opinion. And as you acknowledged that field quality is a thing, that also means that a significant subset of races has a field that's stronger than usual, stronger than for other races, or both, so the argument can never be that field quality should be criticised or downplayed for every single race.

I also said that most classics this season have suffered from issues like the ones that negatively impacted the Liège field.

 

[OlavEH]

Go back to the initial post i responded to. Posters coming in claiming the field was not strong enough in race X, but they are nowhere to be seen making the same argument for race Y.

Well, I did wrote yesterday the following comment as a summary for this spring classics season:

Overall, this spring has been pretty mediocre. Too noticeable that Ala was far from peak shape and that Van Aert, Van der Poel and Pog only had short peaks.

So I think it apply to somewhat degree to the spring season as a whole. We now have perhaps five classic riders of immense potential and peak quality. Perhaps on par with the best we've seen the last 15-20 years (Boonen, Cance, Gilbert, Valverde, Sagan). Of course all of them can't peak in a whole bunch of races over the entire spring season, but Ala was completely out of shape the whole time and the peaks of Van der Poel and Van Aert were short. In a more "optimal" season we could possible have great duels between at least 2-3 of these in several of the biggest classics (Monuments, Strade, perhaps Amstel and E3/GW). This spring it was pretty much left to a very good MSR and a duel between VdP and Pog in RVV. Next year I definitely hope for much more.

 

[Extinction]

...because posters think the field was weak in race X but not race Y?

If I might, I think the intention was to simply point out, all things being more or less the same (and they usually are), assessment of field strength gets applied selectively, rather than as an unbiased objective criteria across the board from race to race. In this case, Remco's exploit gets qualified by a supposed "weakish field," but not the exploits of others under comparable circumstances. Thus simular arguments could be posed regarding the field they were up against at the time. Morever, such nitpicking towards Evenepoel seems to stem from a broader skepticism, when not antipathy, towards him; such that what is enough to demonstrate superior class for others, when done by him somehow isn't given the same recognition.

 

[Carrick-On-Seine]

If I might, I think the intention was to simply point out, all things being more or less the same (and they usually are), assessment of field strength gets applied selectively, rather than as an unbiased objective criteria across the board from race to race. In this case, Remco's exploit gets qualified by a supposed "weakish field," but not the exploits of others under comparable circumstances, when thus simular arguments could be posed regarding the field they were up against at the time. Morever, such nitpicking towards Evenepoel seems to stem from a broader skepticism, when not antipathy, towards him; such that what is enough to demonstrate superior class for others, when done by him somehow isn't given the same recognition.

Van Baarle also had a load of nonsense written about his win and Mohoric only won because of his seat post.
But yeah, Remco's win stung some people even more

 

[Red Rick]

If I might, I think the intention was to simply point out, all things being more or less the same (and they usually are), assessment of field strength gets applied selectively, rather than as an unbiased objective criteria across the board from race to race. In this case, Remco's exploit gets qualified by a supposed "weakish field," but not the exploits of others under comparable circumstances, when thus simular arguments could be posed regarding the field they were up against at the time. Morever, such nitpicking towards Evenepoel seems to stem from a broader skepticism, when not antipathy, towards him; such that what is enough to demonstrate superior class for others, when done by him somehow isn't given the same recognition.

Weak field is thrown around all the time, usually not without any merit. That includes races like Pogacars solo win in Strade Bianche as well. Objectively, the 3 traditionally biggest contenders in Liege crashed out or weren't there. Van Aert was over his peak probably.

Lastly, I think riders tend to get more leeway for winning in a weaker field if they've done it in a strong field before. Like Froome isn't gonna get much *** for beating Bardet and Uran, but Nibali does for beating Peraud and Pinot, even if Nibbles beat them by muchos more time.

 

[Escarabajo]

I already made a conclusions myself:

• If Pogacar was in the race Remco would have attacked in the same place. Unknown if he had been able to follow. Depends on his position. But had he stayed back there is no way in this universe that anybody would have helped him reel Remco back.
• If Ala was in the race Remco would have attacked in the same place and won.
• If Roglic was in the race Remco would have attacked in the same place and won,
• If MvDP was in the race Remco would have attacked in the same place and won,
• If Froome was in the race Remco would have attacked in the same place and won,
• If Bernal was in the race Remco would have attacked in the same place and won,
• If Contador was in the race Remco would have attacked in the same place and won,
• If Nibali was in the race Remco would have attacked in the same place and won,
• If Masnada was in the race Remco would have attacked in the same place and won,
• If Vino was in the race Remco would have attacked in the same place and won,

That Nibali, Masnada and Vino would never would have been able to reel him back is saying a lot.

 

[Red Rick]

I already made a conclusions myself:

• If Pogacar was in the race Remco would have attacked in the same place. Unknown if he had been able to follow. Depends on his position. But had he stayed back there is no way in this universe that anybody would have helped him reel Remco back.
• If Ala was in the race Remco would have attacked in the same place and won.
• If Roglic was in the race Remco would have attacked in the same place and won,
• If MvDP was in the race Remco would have attacked in the same place and won,
• If Froome was in the race Remco would have attacked in the same place and won,
• If Bernal was in the race Remco would have attacked in the same place and won,
• If Bernal was in the race Remco would have attacked in the same place and won,
• If Contador was in the race Remco would have attacked in the same place and won,
• If Nibali was in the race Remco would have attacked in the same place and won,
• If Masnada was in the race Remco would have attacked in the same place and won,
• If Vino was in the race Remco would have attacked in the same place and won,

That Nibali, Masnada and Vino would never would have been able to reel him back is saying a lot.

I know Bernal is injured but this is just pure disrespect

 

[Escarabajo]

I know Bernal is injured but this is just pure disrespect

To whom?

 

[Fantastico]

I know Bernal is injured but this is just pure disrespect

You mean that even if he's mentioned twice in the list, supposedly, he's still not able to reel Evenepoel back?

 

[Red Rick]

You mean that even if he's mentioned twice in the list, supposedly, he's still not able to reel Evenepoel back?

If Bernal had raced, Evenepoel would've won twice.

Now that's just right for the jugular man.

 

[Extinction]

Weak field is thrown around all the time, usually not without any merit. That includes races like Pogacars solo win in Strade Bianche as well. Objectively, the 3 traditionally biggest contenders in Liege crashed out or weren't there. Van Aert was over his peak probably.

Lastly, I think riders tend to get more leeway for winning in a weaker field if they've done it in a strong field before. Like Froome isn't gonna get much *** for beating Bardet and Uran, but Nibali does for beating Peraud and Pinot, even if Nibbles beat them by muchos more time.

Yes, but Nibali did so after Contador and Froome crashed out, so there, had they continued in the race, it's obectively difficult to argue the Italian's victory would still have been of such large time gaps to 2nd and 3rd (if he would have won at all).

On big contenders crashing out, I can think of mainly Alaphilippe. And as Lefevere has stated Julian would have ridden to set up Remco, because they knew how strong he was in working for Ala at FW and the way his legs were turning on the day. What's taking place with Remco's exploit yesterday is unreasonable. Basically some are questioning the feat as such, by arguing that the absence of the top favorite or contenders with inadequite condition makes it less impressive. But this negates an undeniable truth, namely to do what Remco did simply requires balistic legs, however you look at it, which has nothing to do with who was or wasn't there or in what condition. He simply went into turbo mode in a similar, but differnet way, as Pogacar did on the miserable slopes of the Cole de Romme. Both are exploits in the absolute sense. Was Pogacar's any less exceptional because Roglic was already out, Bernal not in the race and "only" done against Carapas and in the face of a mega-funded Ineos? No and neither was Evenepoel's escape any less sensational.

 

[Big Doopie]

I already made a conclusions myself:

• If Pogacar was in the race Remco would have attacked in the same place. Unknown if he had been able to follow. Depends on his position. But had he stayed back there is no way in this universe that anybody would have helped him reel Remco back.
• If Ala was in the race Remco would have attacked in the same place and won.
• If Roglic was in the race Remco would have attacked in the same place and won,
• If MvDP was in the race Remco would have attacked in the same place and won,
• If Froome was in the race Remco would have attacked in the same place and won,
• If Bernal was in the race Remco would have attacked in the same place and won,
• If Contador was in the race Remco would have attacked in the same place and won,
• If Nibali was in the race Remco would have attacked in the same place and won,
• If Masnada was in the race Remco would have attacked in the same place and won,
• If Vino was in the race Remco would have attacked in the same place and won,

That Nibali, Masnada and Vino would never would have been able to reel him back is saying a lot.

only quibble with this...

nibali was in the race.

gives you a sense of how far he has fallen off the map.

 

[tobydawq]

Yes you are. The argument you make can be made for every win by every rider. In the 2020 TDF, Bernal hadn't been able to train due to covid. We'll never know if Pogacar would have beaten him. Froome had crashed in the Dauphiné the year before, ending his career de facto. Dumoulin was still struggling with the aftermath of his knee and an on form Dumoulin could rival any GC rider. In 2021 Roglic crashed out, Dumoulin had a mental breakdown and the runner up was a guy who had never shown anything like that before, nor since.

It works for anyone anywhere. Pog winning UAE? Who actually tries to win UAE? The others don't care and are just training there. Carapaz winning the Giro? Only because the others refused to ride and Roglic got sick. Carapaz winning the Olympics? Only because Evenepoel was overtrained and Van Aert couldn't counter every move by 15 guys, so Carapaz just got lucky. Pog winning Lombardia? Lol, the Italian Kurt Van de Wouwer finished in his wheel. Nobody else was on form.

Kurt Van De Wouver. There's a name I haven't seen in 18 years.

 

[Red Rick]

Yes, but Nibali did so after Contador and Froome crashed out, so there, had they continued in the race, it's obectively difficult to argue the Italian's victory would still have been of such large time gaps to 2nd and 3rd (if he would have won at all).

On big contenders crashing out, I can think of mainly Alaphilippe. And as Lefevere has stated Julian would have ridden to set up Remco, because they knew how strong he was in working for Ala at FW and the way his legs were turning on the day. What's taking place with Remco's exploit yesterday is unreasonable. Basically some are questioning the feat as such, by arguing that the absence of the top favorite or contenders with inadequite condition makes it less impressive. But this negates an undeniable truth, namely to do what Remco did simply recquires balistic legs, however you look at it, which has nothing to do with who was or wasn't there or in what condition. He simply went into turbo mode in a similar, but differnet way, as Pogacar did on the miserable slopes of the Cole de Romme. Both are exploits in the absolute sense. Was Pogacar's any less exceptional because Roglic was already out, Bernal not in the race and "only" done against Carapas and in the face of a mega-funded Ineos? No and neither was Evenepoel's escape any less sensational.

While I think Evenepoel is the only rider who can attack in that location and solo it home - and I think vs the same field a top shape Pogacar could do similar if he simply attacks earlier on La Redoute, I think there's a pretty big difference still. Evenepoel is still dependent on other riders making the tactical blunder of not sitting on his wheel. Pogacar just rode away and took 3 minutes in the biggest race in the world and the rest was left just compeltely mindblown.

Put in the guy that's not there, and Pogacar maybe has a 2% shot that Roglic can follow whereas Evenepoel straight up is an underdog.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

...because posters think the field was weak in race X but not race Y? That's not bias, that's called an opinion. And as you acknowledged that field quality is a thing, that also means that a significant subset of races has a field that's stronger than usual, stronger than for other races, or both, so the argument can never be that field quality should be criticised or downplayed for every single race.

lol
Bias is chosing to bring it up for race X and not for race Y, while the same arguments apply. Everything that comes out of ones mouth that isn't a verifiable fact is called an opinion. That doesn't mean it can not be bias. But nice try.

Your take that there are problems with the PCS rating shows your own bias. It is an objective way to determine field strength. Obviously it will have it's faults but it has the same faults for every race. Not just for LBL. Any system would have it's faults. It doesn't take into account that Alaphilippe crashed in LBL, but it did take into account the fact that Pog and Rog weren't present. It also doesn't take into account that Van der Poel had a too short preperation and might have already been declining in Roubaix while it was Van Aert's first race after a covid infection, or that last year's runner up never got into contention due to mechanicals. Nor that Pogacar never did a cobbled classic prior to RVV. It didn't take into account the fact that 2020 was covid, that many races got cancelled and smaller races got bigger names, neither that those bigger names might not have had an ideal preparation due to covid. But it is an objective way to measure the field's quality. And any argument against it could be used against any other system just as easily.

 

[Extinction]

While I think Evenepoel is the only rider who can attack in that location and solo it home - and I think vs the same field a top shape Pogacar could do similar if he simply attacks earlier on La Redoute, I think there's a pretty big difference still. Evenepoel is still dependent on other riders making the tactical blunder of not sitting on his wheel. Pogacar just rode away and took 3 minutes in the biggest race in the world and the rest was left just compeltely mindblown.

Put in the guy that's not there, and Pogacar maybe has a 2% shot that Roglic can follow whereas Evenepoel straight up is an underdog.

To the bolded it sounds like we watched two different races. Evenepoel attacked from the front of the group when it wasn't strung out, but across the road, and NOBODY could follow him. You could not telegraph an attack any more openly and nobody had an answer. He went away on sheer overbearing power. Nibali said when he stepped on the gas he went away at TRIPLE SPEED. What else must the lad do to demonstrate something rare and special? No way anyone else in the peloton could have gone faster, perhaps match it, but only a top Pogacar (who would not have had the same time trial capacity over the long haul).

 

[Red Rick]

To the bolded it sounds like we watched two different races. Evenepoel attacked from the group when it wasn't strung out and NOBODY could follow him. You could not telegraph an attack any more openly and nobody had an answer. He went away on sheer overbearing power. Nibali said when he stepped on the gas he went away at TRIPLE SPEED. What else must the lad do to demonstrate something rare and special? No way anyone else in the peloton could have gone faster, perhaps match it, but only a top Pogacar (who would not have had the same time trial capacity over the long haul).

Oh my god he can clean Neilson Powless off the wheel while in motordraft. Noone else tried cause they were all sitting too far back.

 

[Extinction]

Oh my god he can clean Neilson Powless off the wheel while in motordraft. Noone else tried cause they were all sitting too far back.

They were all tired and hoping he wasn't going to explode their races. They were wrong, but in any case could not stop him from doing it. They weren't at his side, because they didn't want to be have to take up the chase themselves, calculating it was better to sit on reserves than risk blowing up, and then were grasping for lifelines when it was too late.

 

[red_flanders]

...because posters think the field was weak in race X but not race Y? That's not bias, that's called an opinion. And as you acknowledged that field quality is a thing, that also means that a significant subset of races has a field that's stronger than usual, stronger than for other races, or both, so the argument can never be that field quality should be criticised or downplayed for every single race.

I also said that most classics this season have suffered from issues like the ones that negatively impacted the Liège field.

I think that's the general issue. Every race has some degree of a sub-optimal field. But when Remco goes, there's always a TON of "they didn't chase hard because tactics" or "the field wasn't strong" or "no one followed his attack" or in the case of San Sebastian "everyone was tired from the Tour" or "it's not a big race", etc. Clearly the latter case couldn't be made yesterday, but the others have all been seen in these threads.

It does seem wildly out of proportion, generally, to the same exact things happening when other riders attack and win. Given that weird background to the Remco phenomenon (if one accepts my premise which I think most would), people tend to take comments like these with a little more focus and reaction than they might otherwise.

Regarding bias vs opinion, of course there needs to be room for that, but these kinds of opinions seem weirdly biased certain ways when Remco is involved.

He is 22. Stunning ride from a 22 year old kid.

 

[Carrick-On-Seine]

Oh my god he can clean Neilson Powless off the wheel while in motordraft. Noone else tried cause they were all sitting too far back.

Ok then, it was near the top that he attacked and a full Bahrain team and Van Aert couldn’t TT him back. You make it sound even better now!

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Oh my god he can clean Neilson Powless off the wheel while in motordraft. Noone else tried cause they were all sitting too far back.

New to cycling i see.