2013 Cleanest Peloton Ever

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King Boonen said:
I certainly don't think that. I'm a PhD analytical chemist who has done research in pharmaceutical development.

With all due respect to Hamilton, he knows sod all about the pharmaceutical industry. He knows a lot about a tiny, peripherally related area, but expanding that to the industry would be wrong.



I'm sorry, in terms of creating new drugs I'm calling BS. How much money do you think there is in sport? Because it costs approximately £800M to bring a new drug to market. That's one drug. No drugs are designed for athletes.

in terms of evading the testers there seems to be a couple of choices. Firstly, If you want to set up a lab to determine detectable levels of particular drugs in your system you'll need about £500,000 for instrumentation, for example an Exactive Mass Spectrometer, which I believe was the main instrument used during London 2012. Those ones are now in Ian Wilson and Jeremy Nicholsons lab at Imperial College London. You then need about £200,000 a year to staff the lab and hire experts and about £50,000 to run it. You could farm it out, but ethics requirements will state any athlete involved in testing doping products, and there are some in studies although obviously not top level guys, must not compete, so you'd struggle to find a lab willing to risk it. Enough guys using the same lab can fund it, but they will invariably get found out.

You could go the pharmacokinetics route which is much less expensive but is less accurate so more risky and they already do this anyway.

otherwise you just dope and miss 2 OOC tests then stop, but again, I'm sure they do this anyway.

I'm sure they are coming up with new methods, but short of making sure the levels are undetectable there seems to be little more that they can do that isn't done already such as surfactant on hands, catheterise yourself for urine replacement or using masking agents and hope you get lucky.

EPO was so good because it was endogenous so it was extremely difficult to determine doping levels. Most drugs are not like this, but some are.

take the example of the recent GW compound. There is already a method in place to detect it because these methods are developed in the pre-clinical trial phase using spiked plasma. I know, I've done it for a few studies on already licensed drugs.




I'm probably in a unique position on this forum in that I have met, professionally, two members of European WADA boards, most notably the one time head of the laboratory standards board. The gap is shortening. There will always be a gap and people will always slip through but new methods are making it much harder to get away with.



It's not just Kittel, but other names have slipped my mind. Can't argue this point though as it's both our opinions without any solid evidence on either side. You say I'm being naive, I say you're unfairly tarring the new generation with the same brush.

the last point though, offering them the means to dope successfully isn't a fair point. If you guarantee it people who may not consider it previously might now, it's a loaded argument.

Do you have a Nike poster of Lance (Im on my bike 6 hours a day, what are you on?) on your ceiling above your bed that you have written 'Tell me its not true Lance! Im still a believer!!'.

Works in pharma. Thinks riders hitting 6+w/kg after 5 hours racing in the heat after 2 weeks solid racing around France....is possible with out pharma productz..

You think sponsors are interested in sponsoring riders that can't win? Its cut throat mate. If you don't dope, you won't cope in the big time. Micro dosing edgar is like eating breakfast. Do it all year long so the bio passport looks 'non suspicious'.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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King Boonen said:
I'm a PhD analytical chemist who has done research in pharmaceutical development.

...

I'm sorry, in terms of creating new drugs I'm calling BS. How much money do you think there is in sport? Because it costs approximately £800M to bring a new drug to market. That's one drug. No drugs are designed for athletes.

The Clear. One off, lucky break, or reproducible phenomenon?

Would welcome your thoughts, from a PhD analytical chemist POV.
 
Dear Wiggo said:
The Clear. One off, lucky break, or reproducible phenomenon?

Would welcome your thoughts, from a PhD analytical chemist POV.

Arnold was not creating new drugs from scratch, but rediscovering steroids from 50-60-s. Drug companies created, but shelved them. First version of The Clear for instance was based on work ofWyeth laboratories in 1960-s. And anyway, steroids are special case. If yo look at EPO and its derivatives, they are all created by Big Pharma. You cannot obviously exclude possibility that dopers are able to create new drugs, but so far it does not seem very productive. You don´t need to be analytical chemist to know that pharma is indeed spending huge sums to create new drugs, money is so huge, it doesnt seem plausible that pro-cycling in their own can compete.

The Hitch said:
What yall totally overlook is what Hamilton i think it was called the arms race.

The reality is that there is also a doping organization, so to speak, a very well funded one (considering how much money there is in pro sports) which seeks to stay ahead of anti doping, by creating new drugs, methods and technology, and new ways to evade the testers.

From Hamilton it was also clear that gap was closing and dopers were playing defense. In 1990-s you were able to dope safely: no tests, nobody was able to detect. In 20o0-s it was not case anymore. Now we are in 2013 and what is the situation? Basically EPO and transfusions are still game changers. Dopers have not been able to develop something new and similarly powerful. Sure, there are still loopholes in antidoping, but if you compare present situation with 1995 (risk free dope) or 2005 (moderately risk-free), then today is different.
 
BigBoat said:
Today watching I just couldn't rap my head around 36.6 mph for the average on a loop course. When I looked at the profile I noticed it lost 26 feet in elevation but the slight downhill would have been offset by the slight hill!

On Analytical cycling using the lowest typical drag I get 596 watts going a steady 36.6 mph, and 415 watts or so in the draft at the back of the pack. for a 72 kg rider I imagine the normalized power would have to meet somewhere around 500 watts.

If we drop down the air density abit you can do it with less, but the 600 watts while dragging the group is typical of what we've seen on past TDF TTT's from past years.

Perfectly normal.

Did only one rider really do most of the work?

Yup, perfectly normal.

Dave.
 
42x16ss said:
Does anyone know what the wind was doing during the TTT? Could explain the speed - or condemn it further...

It was an A-B-A course so doesn't really matter. But it was light too so crosswinds weren't a factor. The very few turns and good straight roads is more than enough to explain it.
 
42x16ss said:
Does anyone know what the wind was doing during the TTT? Could explain the speed - or condemn it further...

The speed with this kind of ITT bikes in an TTT so flat and with long roads is the normal speed.

In the dark era (and in all the history in general) the TTT were longer and usually no so flat.

Today , with globalization, the level of the peloton is higher as well.

In my village, in Vuelta a Burgos, Movistar did 70 Km /h. I know the road quite well, just 11,5 km, it was a little bit down hill and there was that day a soft tailwind some time, but anyway is 70 km/h, and it is not TDF.
 
Ferminal said:
It was an A-B-A course so doesn't really matter. But it was light too so crosswinds weren't a factor. The very few turns and good straight roads is more than enough to explain it.

All settled then.

Perfectly normal for one guy to pull at 59 kph for 25k.

Dave.
 
Feb 1, 2011
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So what was the cleanest peloton ever?

If this is not the cleanest peloton ever (or at least since 1990) which years were cleaner? I'd be interested in nominations for cleanest peloton since 1990. Perhaps someone ought to make a poll.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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Orvieto said:
If this is not the cleanest peloton ever (or at least since 1990) which years were cleaner? I'd be interested in nominations for cleanest peloton since 1990. Perhaps someone ought to make a poll.

Krebs defines "cleaner" as "slower than previously".

For me, it would be "not as many riders doping". But riders are still being caught, despite the chances of being caught being slim to none. Not many BP-centred cases since ... forever, it's all been mistakes of dosing EPO, etc.

What do you define as "cleaner"?
 
Jul 21, 2012
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Yet here we have Dawg climbing the madone almost as fast as the prepared Lance with Dr Ferrari waiting at the top

Average speed of the tour is not going down

Wiggins is/was TTing like Lance

They just set a new TTT record

So where are the speeds down exactly?
 
Dear Wiggo said:
Krebs defines "cleaner" as "slower than previously".

For me, it would be "not as many riders doping". But riders are still being caught, despite the chances of being caught being slim to none. Not many BP-centred cases since ... forever, it's all been mistakes of dosing EPO, etc.

What do you define as "cleaner"?

1. All of the old guard gone
2. TT power output < 508 watts (= Indurain)

Edit to add: Sustained 651 watts??? Gimme a frikken break. It isn't cleaner. It is a bigger circus.

Dave.
 

Dr. Maserati

BANNED
Jun 19, 2009
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Dear Wiggo said:
Krebs defines "cleaner" as "slower than previously".

For me, it would be "not as many riders doping". But riders are still being caught, despite the chances of being caught being slim to none. Not many BP-centred cases since ... forever, it's all been mistakes of dosing EPO, etc.

What do you define as "cleaner"?

Thanks for defining what "cleanER' is - but how would you recognize that "there are not as many riders doping"?

Wouldn't a logical indicator be a slower than previous pace?
 
Aug 16, 2011
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Orvieto said:
If this is not the cleanest peloton ever (or at least since 1990) which years were cleaner? I'd be interested in nominations for cleanest peloton since 1990. Perhaps someone ought to make a poll.

2011 maybe.

Based on average speed 2007 and 2010 would be cleanest in recent years. Considering the events that happened in those Tour though, can't really say they are the cleanest.
 
Afrank said:
2011 maybe.

Based on average speed 2007 and 2010 would be cleanest in recent years. Considering the events that happened in those Tour though, can't really say they are the cleanest.
We can't judge by ave. speed, i think {not saying you said we should}. By the way why 2011?
 
Aug 16, 2011
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Zam_Olyas said:
We can't judge by ave. speed, i think {not saying you said we should}. By the way why 2011?

I don't know exactly, just seems like if there was one Tour that was cleaner than others, it would be 2011. Pretty difficult to declare any Tour cleaner than others though.
 
Jun 15, 2012
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I am not too keen on jumping to conclusions just off average speed. Yeah a freakish jump would stand out but you get a few terrible headwind days in the wrong stage and you got a lot of variability ...I feel the best about this tour since Lemond's last win
 
Jul 21, 2012
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Afrank said:
I don't know exactly, just seems like if there was one Tour that was cleaner than others, it would be 2011. Pretty difficult to declare any Tour cleaner than others though.

If we go by climbing speeds then 2006 was the cleanest :D

1. Lance Armstrong | 2003 | 6,18 W/kg
2. Alberto Contador | 2009 | 6,17 W/kg
3. Lance Armstrong | 2004 | 6,09 W/kg
4. Lance Armstrong | 2005 | 6,09 W/kg
5. Lance Armstrong | 2001 | 6,07 W/kg
6. Bradley Wiggins | 2012 | 5,98 W/kg
7. Lance Armstrong | 2000 | 5,97 W/kg
8. Lance Armstrong | 2002 | 5,97 W/kg
9. Alberto Contador | 2007 | 5,92 W/kg
10. Carlos Sastre | 2008 | 5,85 W/kg
11. Alberto Contador | 2010 | 5,78 W/kg
12. Cadel Evans | 2011 | 5,68 W/kg
13. Floyd Landis | 2006 | 5,67 W/kg

Seems like the tour was indeed slowing down after Lance, until the clean sky miracle of 2012 that brought us back to Armstrong levels again.
 
Apr 3, 2011
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I'm testifying that what we saw so far during the Tour is far from being the cleanest peloton - Cav's jersey was exceptionally dirty today.
 
PosterBill said:
I am not too keen on jumping to conclusions just off average speed. Yeah a freakish jump would stand out but you get a few terrible headwind days in the wrong stage and you got a lot of variability ...I feel the best about this tour since Lemond's last win

I'm not jumping to a conclusion based upon average speed.

I'm merely suggesting that this is an interesting place to start looking.

Assuming that you ride a bike (not being argumentative), just ask yourself if it makes sense that one guy would pull for most of a TTT on a circuit course and average 59 kph over any distance greater than a single kilometer?

Curious.

Dave.
 
Jul 26, 2009
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D-Queued said:
[...]
Assuming that you ride a bike (not being argumentative), just ask yourself if it makes sense that one guy would pull for most of a TTT on a circuit course and average 59 kph over any distance greater than a single kilometer?
[...]
Dave.

Dave - I'm trying to figure out why you're bringing this up - Was there a report of someone taking disproportionate pulls during the TTT?

To me doing 59kph sounds fast, but not necessarily implausibly so, depending on conditions (e.g., favorable wind on one stretch, sheltered on the way back). It's hard to say what the actual duty cycle would be - one guy could be doing more than his fair share, but still just be riding the front for say 30%. Assuming sacrificial pulls earlier from a couple of guys, it seems like you could get a pretty fast average.

I think a lot depends on the conditions of the day, the quality of the road surface, how well synched the team is, etc., so in my opinion there's too much "noise" to figure out if there's doping or not. (I'm not arguing one position or the other: I'm just saying it doesn't seem like there's a clear indicator of doping or being clean from the TTT).