2016 Larry H. Miller Tour of Utah, August 1 to 7

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Samamba said:
trevim said:
liamito said:
poor tactics by talansky
To me it looked a lot like lack of legs but I only watched the final km's.

Anyway, I thought Costa was more of a time-trialist. Obviously climbing well in Utah just means he climbs well in Utah but it's highly impressive for such a young kid.
Costa can do everything. Climbing, TT, hills, cobbles... He's incredible.

His performance tells something about the level of u23 racing these days btw. It's not like he's winning everything there.
Cobbles? He hasnt shown a lot here yet. Yeah, he did fine in RVV Espoirs, but IMO thats not a particularly strong indicator for ability on the cobbles, more goes to show that he is one of the stronger riders in the u23 field (which of course is impressive considering his age)
 
Jun 30, 2014
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Re: Re:

trevim said:
Samamba said:
trevim said:
liamito said:
poor tactics by talansky
To me it looked a lot like lack of legs but I only watched the final km's.

Anyway, I thought Costa was more of a time-trialist. Obviously climbing well in Utah just means he climbs well in Utah but it's highly impressive for such a young kid.
Costa can do everything. Climbing, TT, hills, cobbles... He's incredible.

His performance tells something about the level of u23 racing these days btw. It's not like he's winning everything there.
The thing with the U23 level is that sometimes it's very close to the top level those riders will ever achieve. Not saying Costa will be like that but some dutch or danish riders had a great hype only to fail in meeting the expectations in the pro peloton.
I think that you could say the same about a few riders who have ridden for Axel before turning pro, but I hope that someone like Costa will prove me wrong.
 
Talansky almost looking like not caring about winning this stage. Could be that he did not want the jersey this early knowing that the team is a bit weak to control the next stages? Or he is also such a fan of Morton.

And Costa did not get the podium ceremony beer due to age restrictions :)
 
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Mayomaniac said:
trevim said:
Samamba said:
trevim said:
liamito said:
poor tactics by talansky
To me it looked a lot like lack of legs but I only watched the final km's.

Anyway, I thought Costa was more of a time-trialist. Obviously climbing well in Utah just means he climbs well in Utah but it's highly impressive for such a young kid.
Costa can do everything. Climbing, TT, hills, cobbles... He's incredible.

His performance tells something about the level of u23 racing these days btw. It's not like he's winning everything there.
The thing with the U23 level is that sometimes it's very close to the top level those riders will ever achieve. Not saying Costa will be like that but some dutch or danish riders had a great hype only to fail in meeting the expectations in the pro peloton.
I think that you could say the same about a few riders who have ridden for Axel before turning pro, but I hope that someone like Costa will prove me wrong.
Of course, just look at Phinney. Injuries, bad luck, motivation issues and he's miles away from what everyone expected of him some years ago. From the current Axeon riders, I hope Costa, Powless and Guerreiro can pull through :)
 
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Mayomaniac said:
I think that you could say the same about a few riders who have ridden for Axel before turning pro, but I hope that someone like Costa will prove me wrong.
Zepuntke, Craddock, Brown, Dombrowski, Ben King - I sense a wider pattern emerging :p


Sergent, Stuyven, Phinney, Dowsett, Chevrier, Bewley, Duchesne, Putt, Boswell, George Bennett - bit of a mixture of living up to expectations vs not with the rest of the Merckx alumni
 
Nov 1, 2015
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I always wonder about these American races... I always see a lot of Americans performing real well, presumably because it's their peak race of the year, but a lot of these guys that do well here get no results at all in Europe. Is the level so much lower? Or are they more used to a different kind of racing (more crits than in Europe, ...)?
 
Jun 30, 2014
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luckyboy said:
Mayomaniac said:
I think that you could say the same about a few riders who have ridden for Axel before turning pro, but I hope that someone like Costa will prove me wrong.
Zepuntke, Craddock, Brown, Dombrowski, Ben King - I sense a wider pattern emerging :p


Sergent, Stuyven, Phinney, Dowsett, Chevrier, Bewley, Duchesne, Putt, Boswell, George Bennett - bit of a mixture of living up to expectations vs not with the rest of the Merckx alumni
I had high expectations for Boswell, the guy finished 3rd on gc behind Leipheimer and Mancebo in the Tour of Utah when he was just 19 years old, but the guy's still young and had a decent 2015, so maybe his time will come.
Today should be a day for the sprinters, the final 3 stages should be great to watch.
 
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BalearicBeats said:
I always wonder about these American races... I always see a lot of Americans performing real well, presumably because it's their peak race of the year, but a lot of these guys that do well here get no results at all in Europe. Is the level so much lower? Or are they more used to a different kind of racing (more crits than in Europe, ...)?
Yeah American racing is always quaint crit time. Always some anonymous American practically-not-a-sprinter wins against one of the weakest sprinting fields of the year. Even some dude like Leigh Howard would probably get 4 stage wins here.
 
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BalearicBeats said:
I always wonder about these American races... I always see a lot of Americans performing real well, presumably because it's their peak race of the year, but a lot of these guys that do well here get no results at all in Europe. Is the level so much lower? Or are they more used to a different kind of racing (more crits than in Europe, ...)?
The level in American races is laughably low, they simply get outclassed hard in Europe.
 
Re: Re:

burning said:
BalearicBeats said:
I always wonder about these American races... I always see a lot of Americans performing real well, presumably because it's their peak race of the year, but a lot of these guys that do well here get no results at all in Europe. Is the level so much lower? Or are they more used to a different kind of racing (more crits than in Europe, ...)?
The level in American races is laughably low, they simply get outclassed hard in Europe.
I think that manual plowing and coal mining has given European riders a much higher V02 max. Plus sponsorship's from Belgian taverns.
 
Re: Re:

burning said:
BalearicBeats said:
I always wonder about these American races... I always see a lot of Americans performing real well, presumably because it's their peak race of the year, but a lot of these guys that do well here get no results at all in Europe. Is the level so much lower? Or are they more used to a different kind of racing (more crits than in Europe, ...)?
The level in American races is laughably low, they simply get outclassed hard in Europe.
The level in American races is about what you have in a European race where the bulk of the field is Conti teams, because the American races are in fact full of Conti teams. If anything, their Conti teams are quite strong by European standards - particularly Axeon, whose best squad is better than that most ProConti teams could field.
 
Re: Re:

Zinoviev Letter said:
burning said:
BalearicBeats said:
I always wonder about these American races... I always see a lot of Americans performing real well, presumably because it's their peak race of the year, but a lot of these guys that do well here get no results at all in Europe. Is the level so much lower? Or are they more used to a different kind of racing (more crits than in Europe, ...)?
The level in American races is laughably low, they simply get outclassed hard in Europe.
The level in American races is about what you have in a European race where the bulk of the field is Conti teams, because the American races are in fact full of Conti teams. If anything, their Conti teams are quite strong by European standards - particularly Axeon, whose best squad is better than that most ProConti teams could field.
Serguei Tvetcov - Was doing really well in US circuit, did nothing in Europe
Carter Jones - Did really well in US races, looks like he already retired
Rob Britton - DNF'd two 2.1 races in Europe, doing reasonably well in US races
Toms Skujins - Does nothing like rest of Cannondale riders even in 2.1 Europe races
Kiel Reijnen - Looks like struggling to finish top 100 in any Europe race

And please don't forget that Sagan won last year's Cali by killing the TT and dropping many overrated US riders on a proper HC climb. The level in US races has become really low in recent years.
 
Re: Re:

burning said:
Zinoviev Letter said:
burning said:
BalearicBeats said:
I always wonder about these American races... I always see a lot of Americans performing real well, presumably because it's their peak race of the year, but a lot of these guys that do well here get no results at all in Europe. Is the level so much lower? Or are they more used to a different kind of racing (more crits than in Europe, ...)?
The level in American races is laughably low, they simply get outclassed hard in Europe.
The level in American races is about what you have in a European race where the bulk of the field is Conti teams, because the American races are in fact full of Conti teams. If anything, their Conti teams are quite strong by European standards - particularly Axeon, whose best squad is better than that most ProConti teams could field.
Serguei Tvetcov - Was doing really well in US circuit, did nothing in Europe
Carter Jones - Did really well in US races, looks like he already retired
Rob Britton - DNF'd two 2.1 races in Europe, doing reasonably well in US races
Toms Skujins - Does nothing like rest of Cannondale riders even in 2.1 Europe races
Kiel Reijnen - Looks like struggling to finish top 100 in any Europe race

And please don't forget that Sagan won last year's Cali by killing the TT and dropping many overrated US riders on a proper HC climb. The level in US races has become really low in recent years.
I think that you are missing my point here. Saying that the US races, which are mostly made up of Conti riders, are as strong as you would expect races mostly made up of Conti riders to be in Europe is not an argument that the level is very high.

Take as a counter example one of my favourite riders, Gediminas Bagdonas. Bagdonas is a mostly anonymous domestique at Ag2r. He's pretty useful but has few notable results. Ag2r signed him from An Post, one of the better European Conti teams. For the year and a half starting about halfway through his first season at An Post, at roughly the point where they realised that he should be their usual leader, he had something approaching a reign of terror in European .2 races. He won basically any type of race that didn't have an actual mountain in it and also took a few bigger wins, his national TT, a stage at the Tour of Britain etc. He had as good or better a record than most riders who get a ride in Europe out of their US exploits. But it seems that was his level.

Being a team leader in races mostly made up of Conti riders, with riders for bigger teams who are not peaking for the same races, is a different business to being a new arrival to the WT. Riders coming over after some wins at US .2s and a stage win at Utah or whatever are no different from European Conti riders getting a WT ride after winning some European .2s and a stage at Burgos or any of two dozen other .1 stage races. Some will go on to be leaders at a higher level, some will make careers for themselves as mostly invisible domestiques and some will wash out.

Utah is at about the level a race mostly made up of Conti riders, but in form Conti riders, should be. I don't see many people making enormous claims for it. But so what? It's a fun race with a decent parcours and a cast of riders of varying talent levels for whom it is mostly a big deal. I'm all in favour of races like this.
 
I think you missed my point as well, most of the overhyped US riders got outclassed regularly in 2.1 level in Europe and your example is a guy who seems to do well mostly in .2 level and doesn't do well in upper levels, my examples are from .1 and .HC level in US. It is clear that the level of local US riders is around amateur or .2 races in Europe.

By the way, you can obviously enjoy these races and this sort of races should definitely exist but it becomes funny when someone (Like bigmac does here all the time) overhypes these riders and they just do nothing on Europe circuit as they simply got outclassed.
 

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