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I never compared them with guys like Froome or Cav. They are clearly in a way below level compared to guys like Laporte, Calmejane, Vliegen, McLay, Turgis etc.
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Unlikely someone like Howard would get 4 stage wins. You're forgetting that these guys are acutally fast and in American races get to the finish line without spending much energy during the stage. In Europe they'd already be crushed just because overall riding and keeping the position in the last is so much harder.
TMP402 said:
Unlikely someone like Howard would get 4 stage wins. You're forgetting that these guys are acutally fast and in American races get to the finish line without spending much energy during the stage. In Europe they'd already be crushed just because overall riding and keeping the position in the last is so much harder.
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I'd guess it's mostly the conserving energy part which all the crits are different in. A sprinters race (dare I say classic?) like the Scheldeprijs features long, (for Belgium) straight roads where the peloton rides all day behind someone like Iljo Keisse or Vermote until the final laps. I don't think the chase and attacks are that organized in American crits, where there's more constant attacking. I don't believe that the American sprinters we're seeing here are as fast as their European counterparts though.
rekhyt said:
I'd guess it's mostly the conserving energy part which all the crits are different in. A sprinters race (dare I say classic?) like the Scheldeprijs features long, (for Belgium) straight roads where the peloton rides all day behind someone like Iljo Keisse or Vermote until the final laps. I don't think the chase and attacks are that organized in American crits, where there's more constant attacking. I don't believe that the American sprinters we're seeing here are as fast as their European counterparts though.
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No, I understood those points.
1) Riders who get a WT ride out of winning some .2s in the US and getting a stage of Utah or Colorado and coming eighth on GC or something similar are not simply changing the Continent they are racing on. They are also, invariably, changing their team role. They are now junior domestiques, not the main team leader. So they have little freedom to do anything for themselves. And even when it comes to smaller races, the .1 you are measuring against their results in Utah or wherever is not one of them main season's goals and not something they are in peak condition for.
2) This is exactly the same situation as a Bagdonas faced, minus the Continent swap. Riders on US Conti teams don't get as good a calendar as An Post, for the most part, and also get their rides in the WT based on multiple lower category race results and a small number of bigger race results. It could hardly be otherwise given that there are hardly any .1 or .HC races in the US.
3) It is a mistake to see American and European categorisations as meaning quite the same thing anyway. There is only one US PCT team. US Conti teams are allowed into .2, .1 and .HC races and make up the bulk of the field in all of them. All of their UCI stage races feature the same Conti teams and the same relatively small PCT team. The main thing that varies with the category is whether there are a few WT teams involved.
4) Given that situation it is not at all surprising that, whatever hype you may personally perceive, the US races are at about the level you see in a load of relatively minor European .1s. And the riders who get plucked out of that scene have proved themselves to roughly the degree that a European Conti rider with some .2 wins and a stage or two at .1 have proven themselves. Which is to say, they have shown that they might be able to cut it as WT riders. When given the chance, some do and some don't.
5) If there is distinction to be made between US and European Conti teams, it's that on average the US ones are a bit stronger mostly because of the absence of an intermediate PCT layer. That's most obvious in the case of Axeon and their cast of highly rated children. But they are still basically Conti teams.
This Charming Man said:
No, I understood those points.
1) Riders who get a WT ride out of winning some .2s in the US and getting a stage of Utah or Colorado and coming eighth on GC or something similar are not simply changing the Continent they are racing on. They are also, invariably, changing their team role. They are now junior domestiques, not the main team leader. So they have little freedom to do anything for themselves. And even when it comes to smaller races, the .1 you are measuring against their results in Utah or wherever is not one of them main season's goals and not something they are in peak condition for.
2) This is exactly the same situation as a Bagdonas faced, minus the Continent swap. Riders on US Conti teams don't get as good a calendar as An Post, for the most part, and also get their rides in the WT based on multiple lower category race results and a small number of bigger race results. It could hardly be otherwise given that there are hardly any .1 or .HC races in the US.
3) It is a mistake to see American and European categorisations as meaning quite the same thing anyway. There is only one US PCT team. US Conti teams are allowed into .2, .1 and .HC races and make up the bulk of the field in all of them. All of their UCI stage races feature the same Conti teams and the same relatively small PCT team. The main thing that varies with the category is whether there are a few WT teams involved.
4) Given that situation it is not at all surprising that, whatever hype you may personally perceive, the US races are at about the level you see in a load of relatively minor European .1s. And the riders who get plucked out of that scene have proved themselves to roughly the degree that a European Conti rider with some .2 wins and a stage or two at .1 have proven themselves. Which is to say, they have shown that they might be able to cut it as WT riders. When given the chance, some do and some don't.
5) If there is distinction to be made between US and European Conti teams, it's that on average the US ones are a bit stronger mostly because of the absence of an intermediate PCT layer. That's most obvious in the case of Axeon and their cast of highly rated children. But they are still basically Conti teams.
Climb just starting.
For those of us who have ridden it...ugh. Steep and no cover. Not an easy climb at all.
For those of us who have ridden it...ugh. Steep and no cover. Not an easy climb at all.
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I can't access stream right now. That's the North Ogden Divide you're talking about, right? I want to catch the last two hills.
Moose McKnuckles said:
I can't access stream right now. That's the North Ogden Divide you're talking about, right? I want to catch the last two hills.
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Yeah, they just went over NOD. Not a lot of action in the main peloton at all.
BigMac said:
Yeah, they just went over NOD. Not a lot of action in the main peloton at all.
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Because the likes of McCabe and Reijnen are in the group and they will beat him.
Anderis said:
Because the likes of McCabe and Reijnen are in the group and they will beat him.
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In the end, Howes beat Talansky for time bonus.
Strange tactic from Cannondale.
Bettiol is quicker rider than Howes IMO and definetely quicker than Talansky.BigMac said:
In the end, Howes beat Talansky for time bonus.
Strange tactic from Cannondale.
Did Cannondale really burn Bettiol to control the group on the final few km?
Edit: Anderis beat me to it, he's faster than Talansky and probably also faster than Howes, some questionable team tactics.
Edit: Anderis beat me to it, he's faster than Talansky and probably also faster than Howes, some questionable team tactics.
snccdcno
BANNED
Re: Re:
Yeah, that's reasonable. Howes stole some bonus seconds from Talansky, that was a bit of a ffail, but things like that can happen.Anderis said:
Hard to blame Howes for stealing time bonus from Talansky in such a close sprint, but one maybe they could have a shot at winning the stage if one was leading the other out considering how close it was without cooperation.
Re:
Didn't know he could sprint a bit. Will be interesting to see how him, Dunbar and Costa play out tomorrow
BigMac said:
Didn't know he could sprint a bit. Will be interesting to see how him, Dunbar and Costa play out tomorrow
Enjoyed watching Dunbar and Geoghan Hart today. And they aren't even the team leaders. Axeon should be invited to more European races. Probably the best kids team around. I mean you can argue that Topsport are sort of a development team, but the Axeon kids really are children. Tao Hart is an old man there at 21.
Re:
Sure you can. Cannondale was half pregnant. Either go for the stage win or give your GC a few extra seconds. The worst thing to see is two guys from the same team sprinting next to one another. A few seconds might not mean much be there's a psychological aspect as well. Poor game planning by the directors.
Cannondale keeps laying eggs. They have one of the strongest teams in the race (allegedly) and are sitting second overall. If they don't win the overall tomorrow, it's egg on their face for sure.
Anderis said:
Sure you can. Cannondale was half pregnant. Either go for the stage win or give your GC a few extra seconds. The worst thing to see is two guys from the same team sprinting next to one another. A few seconds might not mean much be there's a psychological aspect as well. Poor game planning by the directors.
Cannondale keeps laying eggs. They have one of the strongest teams in the race (allegedly) and are sitting second overall. If they don't win the overall tomorrow, it's egg on their face for sure.
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