Vuelta a España 2023 Vuelta a España route rumours

[Forever The Best]

Well, in 2012 it was more just that the entire field were complete cowards and race organisers, when designing courses, should prepare for the worst case scenario: that the Giro 2012 péloton enters their race.

No course can help when you have a sorry bunch like that. ( Apart from De Gendt and Cunego )

 

[Rob5091]

Anybody know if stage 1's TTT will have the same rules as the Paris-Nice TTT (riders get the time they cross the line with, when normally a team’s time depends on the fourth or fifth rider)?
Which makes for the interesting question, who will Jumbo have as their first man across the line, or will it be Primoz & Jonas holding hands?

 

[Red Rick]

Anybody know if stage 1's TTT will have the same rules as the Paris-Nice TTT (riders get the time they cross the line with, when normally a team’s time depends on the fourth or fifth rider)?
Which makes for the interesting question, who will Jumbo have as their first man across the line, or will it be Primoz & Jonas holding hands?

Haven't read anything about it, so I assume it's just a normal ITT.


Meanwhile, don't ever accuse the Vuelta of going too hard on Unipuerto MTFs again. They really hold back. They're only doing the first half of this

 

[ice&fire]

Haven't read anything about it, so I assume it's just a normal ITT.


Meanwhile, don't ever accuse the Vuelta of going too hard on Unipuerto MTFs again. They really hold back. They're only doing the first half of this

Unipublic does not like having three consecutive hard mountain stages anymore. That stage just before the Asturian stages should have been flattish, but the politician who paid for it wanted a MTF and Unipublic tried to find some kind of "balance"

 

[Red Rick]

Unipublic does not like having three consecutive hard mountain stages anymore. That stage just before the Asturian stages should have been flattish, but the politician who paid for it wanted a MTF and Unipublic tried to find some kind of "balance"

Tbh I kinda suspected something was up when Lekunberri didn't go over Aralar. Weak sauce I wanted my 6 consecutive full blown GC mountain stages.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Unipublic does not like having three consecutive hard mountain stages anymore. That stage just before the Asturian stages should have been flattish, but the politician who paid for it wanted a MTF and Unipublic tried to find some kind of "balance"

Something like Cueva El Soplao might have been better then, or the Monastério de Santo Toribio de Liébana like they used a few years ago.

If they could just finish paving the road between Salto de la Cabra and Jitu d'Escarandí or finish paving the way down from Tresviso to Canal de Urdón...

 

[OlavEH]

The startlist for the Vuelta is amazing. Vingegaard, Evenepoel, Roglic, Thomas, Mas, Ayuso and Almeida. Best startlist for an other GT than the Tour in ages? Miles above the startlsist in the Vuelta.

Regarding the stages, one time it would be interesting to see something different in Asturias than steep MTFs like Angliru, Cruz de Linares and Covadonga. A big medium mountain stage Oviedo-Oviedo with Cordal, Cobertoria, Cruz de Linares and Tenebreo placed somewhere around state 17-18 would be great.

 

[Filippo_3467]

The startlist for the Vuelta often looks very good but then disappoints as multiple contender don't have the form to compete as the Vuelta i their 3rd of 4th important target in that season.

E.g in 2018 you had Nibali, Lopez, Pinot, Yates, Valverde, Quintana, Kruijswik, Kelderman, Valverde, Aru, D. Martin, G.bennett, Mollema, Carapaz, Sagan, Viviani, Uran and so on - so in the 2018 context a really stacked field with most of the best of the best in their field (Viviani best sprinter in the world, Sagan maybe the best rider overall, etc.). In the end S.Yates got the win he should have had at the Giro and a surprise performance from Mas added to the race but it was nothing crazy in the end. Of course Froome, Thomas and Dumo were missing but in the context of that year I don't think the startlist this year is stronger. The Tour and Giro winner is there ok, but the overall best rider is missing (Pogi), no one of the world class "pure" puncheurs/classic guys will be there (MvdP, WvA), maybe no Top sprinter as of now, the second row of GC riders from the Tour probably also miss it.

In then end it could be just Remco vs. Jumbo and if Remco isn't at 101% it could be pretty boring. Ayuso has some troubles atm, if Thomas can get in shape again is an open question, Mas didn't look great the whole season, Almeida even in shape could be miles away from the top 3. The startlist of the Vuelta is often on paper better then it is in real life. I think the greatest asset of this startlist is that we see the first GT of a lot of great talents (Cian, Gregoire, martinez, van Eetvelt, Vauquelin)

 

[Red Rick]

Something like Cueva El Soplao might have been better then, or the Monastério de Santo Toribio de Liébana like they used a few years ago.

If they could just finish paving the road between Salto de la Cabra and Jitu d'Escarandí or finish paving the way down from Tresviso to Canal de Urdón...

I never know how close roads are to being usable or not.

 

[ice&fire]

Something like Cueva El Soplao might have been better then, or the Monastério de Santo Toribio de Liébana like they used a few years ago.

If they could just finish paving the road between Salto de la Cabra and Jitu d'Escarandí or finish paving the way down from Tresviso to Canal de Urdón...

Good luck trying to get this paved...

050-PicosDeEuropa: Senda Urdon - Tresviso - Cantabria

 

[Sciatic]

The startlist for the Vuelta often looks very good but then disappoints as multiple contender don't have the form to compete as the Vuelta i their 3rd of 4th important target in that season.

E.g in 2018 you had Nibali, Lopez, Pinot, Yates, Valverde, Quintana, Kruijswik, Kelderman, Valverde, Aru, D. Martin, G.bennett, Mollema, Carapaz, Sagan, Viviani, Uran and so on - so in the 2018 context a really stacked field with most of the best of the best in their field (Viviani best sprinter in the world, Sagan maybe the best rider overall, etc.). In the end S.Yates got the win he should have had at the Giro and a surprise performance from Mas added to the race but it was nothing crazy in the end. Of course Froome, Thomas and Dumo were missing but in the context of that year I don't think the startlist this year is stronger. The Tour and Giro winner is there ok, but the overall best rider is missing (Pogi), no one of the world class "pure" puncheurs/classic guys will be there (MvdP, WvA), maybe no Top sprinter as of now, the second row of GC riders from the Tour probably also miss it.

In then end it could be just Remco vs. Jumbo and if Remco isn't at 101% it could be pretty boring. Ayuso has some troubles atm, if Thomas can get in shape again is an open question, Mas didn't look great the whole season, Almeida even in shape could be miles away from the top 3. The startlist of the Vuelta is often on paper better then it is in real life. I think the greatest asset of this startlist is that we see the first GT of a lot of great talents (Cian, Gregoire, martinez, van Eetvelt, Vauquelin)

I thought Olav was talking about the elite GC field (not sprinters, etc) lined up this year, which would definitely top 2018. This Vuelta will have the absolute best GT rider and Tour winner, and then with Remco and Roglic the lineup includes the winners of the last 4 consecutive GTs. Not many races, even the Tour, ever get that.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

The startlist for the Vuelta is amazing. Vingegaard, Evenepoel, Roglic, Thomas, Mas, Ayuso and Almeida. Best startlist for an other GT than the Tour in ages? Miles above the startlsist in the Vuelta.

Last year it was Roglic, Evenepoel, Hindley, Almeida, Ayuso, Mas, Carapaz, O'Connor, Landa, Carthy, MAL, Arensman, Uran, Kelderman...

Just depends on how you want to look at it. The only real difference is now Uytdebroeks Vingegaard is also there, but we don't know how his form will be.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Last year it was Roglic, Evenepoel, Hindley, Almeida, Ayuso, Mas, Carapaz, O'Connor, Landa, Carthy, MAL, Arensman, Uran, Kelderman...

Just depends on how you want to look at it. The only real difference is now Uytdebroeks Vingegaard is also there, but we don't know how his form will be.

Sure, but you can already scrap Uran, Kelderman, Arensman, O'Connor and Carthy. No disrespect, but they obviously don't have the level. And yeah yeah, I know Carthy podiummed at some point etc, but come on. This year its just one step above. In the end, the field proved to be quite mediocre - actually rather bad.

This year will be different, and with a harder route, this is Evenepoel's real test.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Sure, but you can already scrap Uran, Kelderman, Arensman, O'Connor and Carthy. No disrespect, but they obviously don't have the level. And yeah yeah, I know Carthy podiummed at some point etc, but come on. This year its just one step above. In the end, the field proved to be quite mediocre - actually rather bad.

This year will be different, and with a harder route, this is Evenepoel's real test.

That's really not the point and i also was not talking about Evenepoel. You don't know how things will turn out. What will you say in case Vingegaard deflates and drops out of the top 20? I'm not saying this will happen or that he is crap, but something like this could very well happen coming out of a hard TDF. Last year people expected Hindley to be a major factor in the Vuelta, can't remember seeing him once tbh. So i stand by what i said, only Vingegaard 's presence is a serious upgrade, and we don't know in which form he starts.

 

[Valv.Piti]

That's really not the point and i also was not talking about Evenepoel. You don't know how things will turn out. What will you say in case Vingegaard deflates and drops out of the top 20? I'm not saying this will happen or that he is crap, but something like this could very well happen coming out of a hard TDF. Last year people expected Hindley to be a major factor in the Vuelta, can't remember seeing him once tbh. So i stand by what i said, only Vingegaard 's presence is a serious upgrade, and we don't know in which form he starts.

I think its obvious that you an agenda in saying that the field was good when in fact it turned out to be very mediocre hence why I referred to Remco. Much of that has to do with Roglic crashing out in the end, of course, and Remco had him beat up until that point. Im convinced that wasn't the best version of Roglic, so essentially it was only really a really, really good Mas who was fighting for the win.

Ayuso is one year older, Roglic should be a bit better, and Vingegaard is Vingegaard. Then you have a couple of the Giro guys who I don't expect that much from (maybe Almeida, but I assume Thomas will put in an Hindley-effort), and hopefully a recovered Mas and Carapaz. Carlos Rodriguez doesnt have the top end level yet (is he even riding?).

Of course it comes down to some of these guys have recovered from TdF, but I don't wanna hear anything about Kelderman, Uran etc. Its rather pointless, only the top-end guys really matter, and this Vuelta has the potential to be a fair amount more top-heavy than 2022. And I bring this back again and again, but the route was very favorable for coming in blazing hot cause the 3rd week was INCREDIBLY easy.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I think its obvious that you an agenda in saying that the field was good when in fact it turned out to be very mediocre hence why I referred to Remco. Much of that has to do with Roglic crashing out in the end, of course, and Remco had him beat up until that point. Im convinced that wasn't the best version of Roglic, so essentially it was only really a really, really good Mas who was fighting for the win.

Ayuso is one year older, Roglic should be a bit better, and Vingegaard is Vingegaard. Then you have a couple of the Giro guys who I don't expect that much from (maybe Almeida, but I assume Thomas will put in an Hindley-effort), and hopefully a recovered Mas and Carapaz. Carlos Rodriguez doesnt have the top end level yet (is he even riding?).

Of course it comes down to some of these guys have recovered from TdF, but I don't wanna hear anything about Kelderman, Uran etc. Its rather pointless, only the top-end guys really matter, and this Vuelta has the potential to be a fair amount more top-heavy than 2022. And I bring this back again and again, but the route was very favorable for coming in blazing hot cause the 3rd week was INCREDIBLY easy.

That's funny that you see obvious things that i was not thinking nor talking about. Hats off to you. Again, the point was that you can now talk up the upcoming startlist, and in one month time you could say the complete opposite, when so and so crashes out, when big favourites coming from the Tour or Giro go MIA etc, and then whoever wins will have had it "handed on a silver platter".

 

[fbjim]

Remco's win didn't count because of how horrendously bad the 2022 Vuelta parcours was. I expect to see an asterisk in all official record books.

 

[Valv.Piti]

That's funny that you see obvious things that i was not thinking nor talking about. Hats of to you. Again, the point was that you can now talk up the upcoming startlist, and in one month time you could say the complete opposite, when so and so crashes out, when big favourites coming from the Tour or Giro go MIA etc, and then whoever wins will have had it "handed on a silver platter".

I have just seen you on numerous occasion defending the field. But sure.

Of course, and in many GTs that the case when you're looking back it. It might happen this year as well, but again, I consider everyone of the top 5-6 GT players here outside of Pogi. Vingegaard makes a huge difference, he's not really the kind of rider to pull a Andy Schleck and go drink with O'Grady and don't give a flying.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Of course, and in many GTs that the case when you're looking back it. It might happen this year as well, but again, I consider everyone of the top 5-6 GT players here outside of Pogi. Vingegaard makes a huge difference, he's not really the kind of rider to pull a Andy Schleck and go drink with O'Grady and don't give a flying.

So... basically you agree with what i have been saying all along. You just felt the need to "expose" me, right? Vingegaard is the only rider that really makes a difference compared to last year in terms of preliminary GC startlist quality. The only difference is that you expect him to perform with the best, as where i am a little bit more cautious in that regard.

2022: Roglic, Evenepoel, Mas, MAL, Carapaz, Hindley, Ayuso, Rodriguez, Almeida, Yates (S), Landa, Carthy, O'Connor, Kelderman, Uran, Higuita, Arensman
2023: Vingegaard, Roglic, Evenepoel, Mas, Ayuso, Thomas, Almeida, Carapaz, Carthy, Dunbar, Higuita, Kelderman, Uran, Uijtdebroeks, Kämna

Missing in 2022 (vs '23): Vingegaard, Thomas, Dunbar, Uijtdebroeks, Kämna
Missing in 2023 (vs '22): MAL, Hindley, S. Yates, Landa, Rodriguez, O'Connor, Arensman

 

[Valv.Piti]

So... basically you agree with what i have been saying all along. You just felt the need to "expose" me, right? Vingegaard is the only rider that really makes a difference compared to last year in terms of preliminary GC startlist quality. The only difference is that you expect him to perform with the best, as where i am a little bit more cautious in that regard.

2022: Roglic, Evenepoel, Mas, MAL, Carapaz, Hindley, Ayuso, Rodriguez, Almeida, Yates (S), Landa, Carthy, O'Connor, Kelderman, Uran, Higuita, Arensman
2023: Vingegaard, Roglic, Evenepoel, Mas, Ayuso, Thomas, Almeida, Carapaz, Carthy, Dunbar, Higuita, Kelderman, Uran, Uijtdebroeks, Kämna

Missing in 2022 (vs '23): Vingegaard, Thomas, Dunbar, Uijtdebroeks, Kämna
Missing in 2023 (vs '22): MAL, Hindley, S. Yates, Landa, Rodriguez, O'Connor, Arensman

I still don't know why you keep bringing up the likes of Dunbar, Kamna, Uijtdebroaeks, Kelderman, Uran, Higuita, Aresnman, Carthy etc. They are completely irrelevant IMO. They are not relevant in the grand scheme of winning it all, its only the top-level talent that matters and in the end, 2022 was very lacking in that department. Only Mas had the top-end level to dream of winning once Roglic was out, that's how it is. This year, together with the route, is more demanding.

 

[Netserk]

Rogla after the Giro without any incidents disturbing his prep is of course a huge upgrade over Rogla crashing out of the Tour with a broken back.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Rogla after the Giro without any incidents disturbing his prep is of course a huge upgrade over Rogla crashing out of the Tour with a broken back.

Yes, its another ballgame. I think that's obvious to most, and when you throw Vingegaard on that team, its completely different to last year. How much better he is is up in the air, but this is his favorite race after all and staying so close despite not operating at 100% tells you something about the animal that he is in La Vuelta.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I still don't know why you keep bringing up the likes of Dunbar, Kamna, Uijtdebroaeks, Kelderman, Uran, Higuita, Aresnman, Carthy etc. They are completely irrelevant IMO. They are not relevant in the grand scheme of winning it all, its only the top-level talent that matters and in the end, 2022 was very lacking in that department. Only Mas had the top-end level to dream of winning once Roglic was out, that's how it is. This year, together with the route, is more demanding.

I mentioned all GC riders that might be in the top 10. I did that for both 2022 as well as 2023. So i don't know what your issue is. There is always someone who surprises, so why not.
Basically the difference is Thomas & Vingegaard vs Yates, Landa, Rodriguez & Hindley. Regarding Roglic, sure, potentially he'll be better.

 

[Valv.Piti]

I mentioned all GC riders that might be in the top 10. I did that for both 2022 as well as 2023. So i don't know what your issue is. There is always someone who surprises, so why not.
Basically the difference is Thomas & Vingegaard vs Yates, Landa, Rodriguez & Hindley. Regarding Roglic, sure, potentially he'll be better.

Because if you're aiming to win the race, you don't really give a damn about those guys. If they have a great race, they can potentially finish top-5 if everything falls into place. And that's great, but it doesn't matter. You can also drop names like Hindley, Landa and Carapaz, but they had no impact what so ever from a GC-perspective. Irrelevant and not good enough, they are just names, but don't really carry anything when arguing for the strength of the field. Of course, Carapaz was winning stages left and right later, but he found that too late.

And because, and I have said this many times: The only thing that really matters are the riders who're actually going into the race with the ambition and ability to win the overall race. Everything points towards Roglic being stronger and Vingegaard lining up which are the two (most likely) big improvements over last year.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Because if you're aiming to win the race, you don't really give a damn about those guys. If they have a great race, they can potentially finish top-5 if everything falls into place. And that's great, but it doesn't matter. You can also drop names like Hindley, Landa and Carapaz, but they had no impact what so ever from a GC-perspective. Irrelevant and not good enough, they are just names, but don't really carry anything when arguing for the strength of the field. Of course, Carapaz was winning stages left and right later, but he found that too late.

And because, and I have said this many times: The only thing that really matters are the riders who're actually going into the race with the ambition and ability to win the overall race. Everything points towards Roglic being stronger and Vingegaard lining up which are the two (most likely) big improvements over last year.

Ok, so you still don't understand. Vingegaard and Thomas are also just names. Until they meet the expectations and rise to their potential. Carapaz, Landa, Hindley... didn't reach their potential nor met expectations. Unlike what you seem to believe, you do not have a crystal ball and can not predict Thomas and Vingegaard will. Vingegaard just went balls out in the Tour, Thomas is an old geezer who also already rode the Giro. So until the moment they show they are actually up to standard over 3 weeks of Vuelta, they are also just names.

Roglic needed boni seconds to beat Carapaz in 2020. Carapaz beat Roglic a year earlier in the Giro. Hindley won the Giro and managed podium before. So those "just names" are among the best GC riders of the past years. But it is no guarantee that they will deliver. Neither is it for Thomas or Vingegaard considering circumstances.

I'll leave it at that.