5 monuments - Cancellara or Gilbert?

[The Hitch]

Ps: Cancellara was almost the same age as Gilbert when he won his first San Remo.

Cancellara is a year and 4 months older than Gilbert. He won MSR 3 years ago.

So Cancellara was a year and 8 months younger than Gilbert is now. And Gilbert has of course to wait another year at least.

Which would make him 4 months short of 3 years older than Cancellara when he wins his first MSR next year. Though he probably never will.

This "gilbert is younger" argument isnt as strong as you think.

 

[El Pistolero]

It is because if you go back a year and 4 months ago all Cancellara had won was MSR and P-R.

 

[Tom T.]

I say neither will win all 5. I don't see Gilbert winning MSR, yesterday is probably as close as he'll get. I also don't see either winning LBL, too many longer, harder climbs that just don't suit them.

I'm surprised Gilbert has not performed better at PR. He has the ability to go from a long way out and clearly has the power. Maybe he's just not adept at riding the cobbles like other guys. Not sure, haven't really looked at his performances there.

 

[Jamsque]

No-one has managed to win all five monuments in over 30 years and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it never happened again. It requires a rider who can dominate every aspect of bike racing, and great though Cancellara and Gilbert are I don't think they are that good.

 

[El Pistolero]

I say neither will win all 5. I don't see Gilbert winning MSR, yesterday is probably as close as he'll get. I also don't see either winning LBL, too many longer, harder climbs that just don't suit them.

I'm surprised Gilbert has not performed better at PR. He has the ability to go from a long way out and clearly has the power. Maybe he's just not adept at riding the cobbles like other guys. Not sure, haven't really looked at his performances there.

Lol, he has only ridden Roubaix once 4 years ago.
Why wouldn't he be able to win LBL? He was fourth last year, losing the sprint to two time winner Alejandro Valverde(after he went on a suicide attack though)

If you can win Lombardia you can win Luik.

 

[Tom T.]

Lol, he has only ridden Roubaix once 4 years ago.
Why wouldn't he be able to win LBL? He was fourth last year, losing the sprint to two time winner Alejandro Valverde(after he went on a suicide attack though)

If you can win Lombardia you can win Luik.

That's why I said I wasn't too up on his PR performances. I think that's a race he could do well in.

Maybe he could win LBL, it's just my gut feeling that he won't.

Actually, I just went back and looked at his LBL performances. Yes, he was 4th twice but each time he was over minute behind the winner. So he's never really had a sniff at winning it.

 

[luckyboy]

I think he can win Liege + Ronde, but not Roubaix. And MSR is just something he's gonna need to get lucky with and keep going at. With the crash this year, it was a big chance.

Cancellara won't win Lombardia or Liege.

 

[The Hitch]

Just a point i realised.

Last year was the first year i think that none of the 5 monuments was won by a home rider.

Well 1965 and 2000 but in both those years PR was won by a Flem, and you could argue their the home team there.


So maybe cycling truly is becoming more global.

 

[El Pistolero]

Really not much that changed in the last 5 years as far as the cobbled classics are concerned. Cancellara was up there in all the Rondes, but just wasn't good enough to win.
Just look at this vid. Who's the Saxo guy that tries to bridge up to Hoste and Boonen you think?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaGt330CUQM

 

[roundabout]

Oh-noes, another hero worship video. How many do you have bookmarked anyway?

And it's Kroon not Cancellara.

 

[El Pistolero]

Oh-noes, another hero worship video. How many do you have bookmarked anyway?

And it's Kroon not Cancellara.

I know, and for who was he working you think?

And it's not a worship vid, just a vid about his wins. Try and find a vid on youtube of the ronde van Vlaanderen 2006. Good luck.

 

[hfer07]

Canc has never raced LBL or Lombardia. Not saying he can't win either, but I feel he needs to get his feet wet in both races before he can consider contending in them.

that's the key element here--Cancellara needs to trade off some weight & power to get up there-and he's very goal orientated-the dilemma is if he's willing to do it at the cost of the other classics & TTing habilities...
I can say It would be easier for Gilbert to win the Ardennes & later on with some gained weight to have a safer shot at P-R.

 

[Lanark]

I know, and for who was he working you think?

And it's not a worship vid, just a vid about his wins. Try and find a vid on youtube of the ronde van Vlaanderen 2006. Good luck.

Kroon was working for himself. At that point in 2006 Cancellara had shown promise in Roubaix, not much in Vlaanderen, and was far from the classic-giant he is now (Boonen had probably never been as good as he was then). Kroon was in the shape of his life in the spring of 2006, and didn't have to work for anyone.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

At this time, both Canc and Gilbert have won 5 monuments apiece. If I had a vote button, Canc would be it. But my dark horse is Boonen. Goooooooooo Tommeke.

 

[El Pistolero]

Kroon was working for himself. At that point in 2006 Cancellara had shown promise in Roubaix, not much in Vlaanderen, and was far from the classic-giant he is now (Boonen had probably never been as good as he was then). Kroon was in the shape of his life in the spring of 2006, and didn't have to work for anyone.

Uhm, Cancellara finished infront of Kroon that year in Flanders. Both him and Canc were protected riders on the team. It certainly would have been in Cance's favour if Kroon could bridge up to Hoste. And he won Roubaix a week later in much the same way as he did last year.

 

[Lanark]

Uhm, Cancellara finished infront of Kroon that year in Flanders. And he won Roubaix a week later in much the same way as he did last year.

Yes, how does that prove Kroon worked for Cancellara? It doesn't. Up till that point Kroon's best result in Vlaanderen was 11th (2005), Cancellara's was 41st (2004), Kroon tried to make the jump to Hoste and Boonen himself, and failed, not because he worked for Cancellara (who had shown no promise at that moment in Vlaanderen). Cancellara was pretty much a prologue specialist at that point.

 

[El Pistolero]

Yes, how does that prove Kroon worked for Cancellara? It doesn't. Up till that point Kroon's best result in Vlaanderen was 11th (2005), Cancellara's was 41st (2004), Kroon tried to make the jump to Hoste and Boonen himself, and failed, not because he worked for Cancellara (who had shown no promise at that moment in Vlaanderen). Cancellara was pretty much a prologue specialist at that point.

Cancellara was a protected leader in that edition, as was Kroon. Canc was in the same group as Kroon. Kroon trying to reach Boonen would have only been in Cance's favour who was clearly stronger than Kroon.

Canc already proved him self to be dangerous on the cobbles in 2004. He was more than just a prologue specialist at that point.

If you want to talk about promise in Flanders, Cancellara never did well in Flanders up until now, mostly because of bad luck.

 

[El Pistolero]

At this time, both Canc and Gilbert have won 5 monuments apiece. If I had a vote button, Canc would be it. But my dark horse is Boonen. Goooooooooo Tommeke.

Boonen can't even win AGR

 

[Lanark]

Cancellara was a protected leader in that edition, as was Kroon. Canc was in the same group as Kroon. Kroon trying to reach Boonen would have only been in Cance's favour who was clearly stronger than Kroon.

Canc already proved him self to be dangerous on the cobbles in 2004. He was more than just a prologue specialist at that point.

So why did you post a video of Kroon trying to bridge the gap to Boonen and Hoste. What relevance has that to this discussion, unless 1) you thought that was Cancellara, or 2) you thought Kroon was working for Cancellara, neither of which is the case.

I'm not sure Cancellara was clearly stronger than Kroon in that race, yes, he finished 2 places ahead of him, but didn't participate in the race apart from that, while Kroon was really active.

A lot has changed actually since 2006. Cancellara was a big talent in Roubaix, but in Vlaanderen he was someone who got dropped on pretty much every hill, now he is dropping everyone.

 

[El Pistolero]

So why did you post a video of Kroon trying to bridge the gap to Boonen and Hoste. What relevance has that to this discussion, unless 1) you thought that was Cancellara, or 2) you thought Kroon was working for Cancellara, neither of which is the case.

I'm not sure Cancellara was clearly stronger than Kroon in that race, yes, he finished 2 places ahead of him, but didn't participate in the race apart from that, while Kroon was really active.

A lot has changed actually since 2006. Cancellara was a big talent in Roubaix, but in Vlaanderen he was someone who got dropped on pretty much every hill, now he is dropping everyone.

In 2007 he showed nothing in Flanders. In 2008? Nope. 2009? Nope.
Just last year. Previous years he was having some real bad luck if that's what you call getting dropped then yes. Not hard to get dropped if your chain breaks...

Kroon being active and Canc sitting in a seat. Isn't that just the same as working for him? Sure looked like Kroon was working his balls off to help Canc win(no way he could've won even if he brought the group back together after all that work)

The point of the vid was that Cancellara was already there(as you can clearly see him in the group of favorites) in Flanders when Boonen started dominating. It's not like only Belgians were there. Looking at the top 10 from 2006 and 2010 it's just as global. So as far as different nationalities competing in Monuments is concerned not all that much changed except that the Aussies have grown.

The fact that no one won his "home classics" last year was just luck.

 

[The Hitch]

The point of the vid was that Cancellara was already there(as you can clearly see him in the group of favorites) in Flanders when Boonen started dominating. It's not like only Belgians were there. Looking at the top 10 from 2006 and 2010 it's just as global. So as far as different nationalities competing in Monuments is concerned not all that much changed except that the Aussies have grown.

The fact that no one won his "home classics" last year was just luck.

Your original responce was so bizzare i thought you were just wierdly talking to yourself.

I make the point that this is the first time ever that a home rider has not won a single of the 5 monuments and your responce is that Canc lost in 2006 and that he wasnt good enough.

Do you ever read what you write before you press send

Lets try this again. Last year the winners of the 5 monuments were

1 MSR (Italy) - Oscar Freire (ESP)
2 RVV (Belgium) Faban Cancellara (SWI)
3 PR (France) Fabian Cancellara (SWI)
4 LBL (Belgium) Alexander Vinokourov (KAZ)
5 GDL (Italy) Phillipe Gilbert (BEL)

5 years ago the winners were

1 MSR (Italy) Filippo Pozzato (ITA) (Home rider)
2 RVV (Belgium) Tom Boonen (BEL) (Home rider)
3 PR (France) Fabian Cancellara (SWI)
4 LBL (Belgium) Alejandro Valverde (ESP)
5 GDL (Italy) Damiano Cunego (ITA) (Home rider)

So 5 years ago 3 of the winners were home riders. Last year 0

So how was 5 years ago the same as 2010, and what has Fabian Cancellara losing Ronde got to do with this.

Hopefully your responce wont be so bizzare this time.

 

[El Pistolero]

Your original responce was so bizzare i thought you were just wierdly talking to yourself.

I make the point that this is the first time ever that a home rider has not won a single of the 5 monuments and your responce is that Canc lost in 2006 and that he wasnt good enough.

Do you ever read what you write before you press send

Lets try this again. Last year the winners of the 5 monuments were

1 MSR (Italy) - Oscar Freire (ESP)
2 RVV (Belgium) Faban Cancellara (SWI)
3 PR (France) Fabian Cancellara (SWI)
4 LBL (Belgium) Alexander Vinokourov (KAZ)
5 GDL (Italy) Phillipe Gilbert (BEL)

5 years ago the winners were

1 MSR (Italy) Filippo Pozzato (ITA) (Home rider)
2 RVV (Belgium) Tom Boonen (BEL) (Home rider)
3 PR (France) Fabian Cancellara (SWI)
4 LBL (Belgium) Alejandro Valverde (ESP)
5 GDL (Italy) Damiano Cunego (ITA) (Home rider)

So 5 years ago 3 of the winners were home riders. Last year 0

So how was 5 years ago the same as 2010, and what has Fabian Cancellara losing Ronde got to do with this.

Hopefully your responce wont be so bizzare this time.

How does that indicate the sport has become more global then let's say 5 years ago?

Pippo's win in 2006 was extremely close and lucky. He benefited from having a strong team thus less chase power by the main peloton.

Just because the home rider didn't win any Monuments this year doesn't mean the sport is so much more global while in reality it's still very much European with the exception of the Aussies growing strong.

And Cunego didn't win Lombardia in 2006, but w/e.

LBL hasn't been won by a Belgian since 1999. MSR hasn't been won by an Italian since 2006. Lombardia hasn't been won by an Italian since 2008. Paris-Roubaix hasn't been won by a Frenchman since 1997.

Flanders has been dominated last years by Belgians yes. But mostly because Quickstep had a killer team. Little to do with nationalities.

I fail to see how this is something new really.

We're talking about globalization of the sport. Cancellara was already on the radar in the cobbled classics 5 years ago.

The only thing that has changed is that Quickstep no longer dominates the classics.
Quickstep 2005: Vlaanderen, Roubaix, Lombardia, Worlds
Quickstep 2006: San Remo, Vlaanderen, Lombardia, Worlds

Of course Italy is no longer going to dominate their 2 Monuments. Rebeliin is banned and really old, Ricco is banned, Cippolini, Bettini and Bartoli are retired, Petacchi is growing older and suffered from asthma problems again, Di Luca was banned and just returned, etc
All they have is Cunego, Ballan and Pozatto as far as classics go. Says enough.

Actually the only home race that's been dominated by same nationalities last decade was Lombardia. Now Gilbert has kicked their *** for 2 years in a row there. Even Flanders has been won 6 times last decade by non-belgians(Tchmil is no Belgian )

In the last decade the following amount of Monuments have been won by "foreigners"

MSR: 8 times
RVV: 6 times
P-R: 11 times
LBL: 11 times
GdL: 2 times

 

[El Pistolero]

Apparently we're all wrong, acoording to Piva it's Goss

"In just a few years he could win as much as De Vlaeminck did," Piva predicted. "That's a huge comparison to live up to but he's a real talent. You have to be to win a huge race like Milan-San Remo."

Yeah winning San Remo after all the sprinters except you got eliminated through bad luck shows you can win 11+ Monuments and all 5 of them... =/

Huge talent yet apparantly not as much as Cancellara and Boonen who were already up there at that age at the big boy classics.

 

[Night Rider]

Yeah winning San Remo after all the sprinters except you got eliminated through bad luck shows you can win 11+ Monuments and all 5 of them... =/

Two things. There is no such thing as bad luck when racing. And, there were still plenty of favorites left in the bunch that came into San Remo. Any winner of Milan-San Remo is a worthy winner.

On the other. Boonen won first monument at 24/25. Cancellara I think was 27.

None of those two will ever win all five. Neither will Goss.

 

[El Pistolero]

Two things. There is no such thing as bad luck when racing. And, there were still plenty of favorites left in the bunch that came into San Remo. Any winner of Milan-San Remo is a worthy winner.

On the other. Boonen won first monument at 24/25. Cancellara I think was 27.

None of those two will ever win all five. Neither will Goss.

Yes, there is bad luck. Ask Freire.

What favorites where there that were sprinters by the way? Boonen was sick as was Petacchi. Just Haussler.

Of course he's a worthy winner, but so was Pozatto in 2006.

This is just no indication towards any other classics. Ok, Gent-Wevelgem perhaps.