97th Liège-Bastogne-Liège 2011

[hrotha]

Isn't that how Cav wins all his races? Well except the attacking part of course. Cav doesn't do that.

In case you haven't noticed, Cav can sprint a wee bit better than any Schleck.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Gilbert in this form can't be beaten on this kind of course anway.

Maybe a super Contador in 100% shape can. But he is never that good in april.

 

[ferryman]

this only means that gilbert was superior not only physically but mentally and psychologically. he was prepared.

Absolutely. The Schlecks had their plan and executed it well, much to the chagrin of many on here, but Gilbert has been simply untouchable this past week.

 

[Captain_Cavman]

It's easy to say they should have attacked, but it's another thing to actually attack and drop Phil.

I don't know why everyone is whining about the Schlecks. They couldn't do any better. If they had stronger legs I'm sure they'd have attacked him more. Let's not forget they already started at La Redoute.

While everyone is complaining about the Schlecks, WHERE THE **** WAS KATUSHA? Didn't they promise us a lot of attacks to make the race hard? The only thing that team is capable of is putting a teammate in a break, but that's where it ends.

The issue I have with the Schlecks/Leopard here is that they did far, far too much work. It was as if they felt they were the overwhelming favourites and Gilbert was just another rider.

Everything they did made a Gilbert victory more likely.

 

[hrotha]

Absolutely. The Schlecks had their plan and executed it well, much to the chagrin of many on here, but Gilbert has been simply untouchable this past week.

No, that's not the issue. The way they rode, they had no chance against Gilbert even if he hadn't been even close to his best. They tried to beat him in an uphill sprint for god's sake.

 

[El Pistolero]

In case you haven't noticed, Cav can sprint a wee bit better than any Schleck.

Cav is compared to Gilbert in my example.

Why doesn't he complain about Garmin, for example, setting up a train when they know Cav will just cruise them over. Why doesn't the entire peloton go on the attack to avoid the inevitable?

 

[Captain_Cavman]

Isn't that how Cav wins all his races? Well except the attacking part of course. Cav doesn't do that.

Yes.

Teams who haven't got as good a sprinter don't help with the chase. Would Radioshack pull back a break with Cavendish sitting on McEwen's wheel?

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

Maybe a super Contador in 100% shape can. But he is never that good in april.

Don't know about LBL. But I have no doubt in FW on the Mur de Huy, a 100% contador would beat a 100% Gilbert...

 

[El Pistolero]

Don't know about LBL. But I have no doubt in FW on the Mur de Huy, a 100% contador would beat a 100% Gilbert...

Pollen allergy.

Nuyens and Alberto make a good team lol.

 

[El Pistolero]

Yes.

Teams who haven't got as good a sprinter don't help with the chase. Would Radioshack pull back a break with Cavendish sitting on McEwen's wheel?

No, I'm just saying Garmin is just as stupid, if not a lot more, for still thinking they can beat Cav

People should say that more often.

That and Katusha stuffed up more than the Leopards. So they really don't deserve this hate here. AT LEAST they attacked.

Where were Kolobnev, Rodriguez, Di Luca(although we did see him a lot lol), Igor Anton, Samu Sanchez, Robert Gesink, etc

 

[indurain666]

Favourites? why the plural? Only one favourite in this race.

Impossibly strong? No stronger than Cancellara was on the cobbles. How come no-one towed Fabian to the line?

Successful tactic: get a man up the road and then sit on.

Unsuccessful tactic: Don't send a man up the road, chase down the break yourself, bridge up to your brother/teammate's attack with the favourite on your wheel, then give him an armchair ride for the last 10 or so KMs.

Lol, I totally knew the post-race discussion was going to be about Schlecks' strange tactics.

I know it is easy to criticize from keyboard, but these two guys are, IMO, two of the top 5 best cyclists in the world. So I am not cutting them some slack

Perhaps they were satisfied with 2-3 podium finish, which is pretty sad. They
should have taken turns attacking Gilbert, make the guy eat some wind. Likely, Gilbert would have slaughtered them, but at least they would have tried something.

If they knew Gilbert was so strong when they attacked (I am not going to touch the fact the way the attack unfolded..) then why would you pace the guy to the finish to ensure he would win with an easy sprint against two climbers?

From a tactical perspective: these two guys are like Virenque, brilliant athletes but often make it seem like they don't really know how to race bicycles to win.

 

[Captain_Cavman]

Cav is compared to Gilbert in my example.

Why doesn't he complain about Garmin, for example, setting up a train when they know Cav will just cruise them over. Why doesn't the entire peloton go on the attack to avoid the inevitable?

I don't know why they don't. I wish they would.

 

[El Pistolero]

Frank Schleck turning him self into a real Boogerd by the way

I bet Dekker is a great fan of Frank xD

 

[hrotha]

No, I'm just saying Garmin is just as stupid, if not a lot more, for still thinking they can beat Cav

People should say that more often.

That and Katusha stuffed up more than the Leopards. So they really don't deserve this hate here. AT LEAST they attacked.

Where were Kolobnev, Rodriguez, Di Luca(although we did see him a lot lol), Igor Anton, Samu Sanchez, Robert Gesink, etc

You keep brining up all the other teams and theoretical favourites as if their underachievements had anything to do with the Schlecks. Leopard's failure was 100% tactical. The failure of the rest wasn't. That means all the others were disappointing, but that doesn't make them morons, which is the issue here.

 

[El Pistolero]

he will probably win a stage or two at the tour.
Should win Glb, and if he rides the Canadian races, might be up there also.
Sure he will pick up pints somewhere else to. So yeah, I like him for the WT.

Don't forget about the Clasica San Sebastian. A race like that really suits him... Easy 80/60/50 points if you ask me.

 

[El Pistolero]

You keep brining up all the other teams and theoretical favourites as if their underachievements had anything to do with the Schlecks. Leopard's failure was 100% tactical. The failure of the rest wasn't. That means all the others were disappointing, but that doesn't make them morons.

You keep thinking the Schlecks wouldn't have blown up if they attacked more. They can feel their legs better than you.

Pretty clear from Gilbert's acceleration on Saint Nicholas that he was the strongest and that Andy couldn't do better. The only reason he got back on was because Frank was sitting on Gilbert's wheel and Phil didn't mind Andy to be back.

 

[hrotha]

You keep thinking the Schlecks wouldn't have blown up if they attacked more. They can feel their legs better than you.

Pretty clear from Gilbert's acceleration on Saint Nicholas that he was the strongest and that Andy couldn't do better. The only reason he got back on was because Frank was sitting on Gilbert's wheel and Phil didn't mind Andy to be back.

What? I've never said such thing. What I've said is that, if you can't win the sprint, you at least try to avoid it, and the Schlecks didn't do jack. Sure, attacking might have endangered Andy's podium, but he's already won this race, he's one of the best riders in the world, and thus I'd expect him to be at least slightly ambitious. I'm not denying Gilbert was the strongest, and I'm pretty sure he'd have won regardless of what the Schlecks had done, but they didn't even put up a fight. We've all seen riders who were completely spent in a breakaway but still tried to attack if they knew they couldn't win the sprint.

 

[Michielveedeebee]

Enjoy it, might have been the last good one in a long while

Naah, Phille will continue to deliver wins, Big Sep and Thomas will make the next step in 2-3 years, Greg van savage will be up there too. We'll start dominating again, like in the 60's and 70's

 

[phanatic]

I'm new to watching the classics (part-time fanboy), but when I saw the trio breakaway, I assumed that Gilbert would simply drop Frank n Andy on the last climb. In retrospect, I see that his sprint made that unnecessary. I was pleasantly surprised by Frank's ability to hold his wheel. In fact, I don't think they would have stayed away from the leading chasers if PG hadn't come through to pull on several occasions. If attacking Gilbert had the same odds of working as sprinting against him, why should you attack rather than sprint?

 

[ferryman]

Favourites? why the plural? Only one favourite in this race.

Impossibly strong? No stronger than Cancellara was on the cobbles. How come no-one towed Fabian to the line?

Successful tactic: get a man up the road and then sit on.

Unsuccessful tactic: Don't send a man up the road, chase down the break yourself, bridge up to your brother/teammate's attack with the favourite on your wheel, then give him an armchair ride for the last 10 or so KMs.

One favourite yes and he won me a lot of money. Favourite(s) was a reference to individual posters on this thread and the disappointment that you are feeling they weren't in the mix.

Your tactics are flawed but not today. Normally a Schleck 1 -2 attack like that will be successfull. It certainly isolated everyone else apart from the yes impossibly strong Gilbert. It was the correct tactic but they did have not the legs to follow it through.

So you don't like Leopard let it go.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Naah, Phille will continue to deliver wins, Big Sep and Thomas will make the next step in 2-3 years, Greg van savage will be up there too. We'll start dominating again, like in the 60's and 70's

Nope, next year Lars Boom will make the magical 26/27 year explosion, find out he is good at hills and immediately tripple up in the Ardennes.
In the same time Maaskant makes the same 'explosion' and gobbles up the cobbled classics.
Gesink continues his Tour dominance started with the TDF 2011.

*dreams on*

 

[Christian]

Correct - there was only one wheel Fränk could have followed - Gilbert's.

Gilbert didn't go instantly when Andy did. Fränk went across and Gilbert went with him. If Fränk hadn't gone across, Gilbert would have gone across anyway, Fränk could have followed his wheel, and then you have a slightly more tired Gilbert and a slightly less tired Fränk. Maybe that little amount could have been what made the difference between a Fränk that could only follow and watch Gilbert disappear and a Fränk that could put in an attack and try to pressurise Gilbert.

It would probably have failed anyway, but the whole debate would have been nullified because the Schlecks would have tried to shake Gilbert but failed. As it was, it just looked like they were content to fill out the podium and let Gilbert have his moment in the sun. That they didn't win isn't what annoyed people. That they didn't have the strength to win isn't what annoyed people. That they rolled over and accepted it without a fight is what annoyed people.

You could argue that the 240km before that was what the fight was. But we didn't see any fighting in that 240km - we just saw a péloton riding together. So when it came to the business end nobody had the strength to do anything, and it looked like they were just letting it happen. That left a sour taste in the mouth.

Meh. I don't buy it. Honestly all this "Gilbert would have been a tiny bit more tired" stuff is ridiculous IMO. You say it yourself - it wouldn't have mattered either way. Then why keep insisting on it? I think people try to pick out these little things in order to prove that the Schlecks lost the race due to bad tactics, when this was not at all the case.

You say that they "rolled over without a fight" - I would argue that they were the only ones who challenged Gilbert, if only a little bit. As someone pointed out, they had the third highest average speed ever, so it wasn't like they were setting a comfy pace for Gilbert. I would have prefered to see Di Luca, Rodriguez, Anton and so on up there but they weren't there. I didn't see their teams much, either. They are the ones who didn't put up a fight. People say they are excused because they didn't have the strength today, but for some reason that excuse is not valid for the Schlecks. I've been trying to tell you that they would have done more if they had had the strength, but apparently that counts for everyone except the Schlecks.

Unsuccessful tactic: Don't send a man up the road, chase down the break yourself, bridge up to your brother/teammate's attack with the favourite on your wheel, then give him an armchair ride for the last 10 or so KMs.

Yes IMO that is the biggest problem LEOPARD TREK has had this classics season: placing men in breaks. Today they could have sent Denifl, Lund or in the best case scenario Wegmann (although I'm not sure the peloton would have allowed him to be in there). This way they might have forced Gilbert, who had only Jelle left rather early on, to attack and pull by himself. On the other hand they could have lost everything because Lund or Denifl would have been no match for Gasparotto or van Avermaet (to name only the most obvious). If you look at LBL 2009, they had succeeded to place Kroon and Kolobnev up the road ... but of course those are riders of a different calibre.

The issue I have with the Schlecks/Leopard here is that they did far, far too much work. It was as if they felt they were the overwhelming favourites and Gilbert was just another rider.

Everything they did made a Gilbert victory more likely.

Well the team worked a lot to make the race hard and try to isolate Gilbert, which they succeeded. They didn't have the strongest rider but they had the strongest team, so they tried to play that to their advantage and thereby did a lot of harm to the peloton ... remember it wasn't only a race against Gilbert but against many other teams and possible candidates as well

They tried to beat him in an uphill sprint for god's sake.

Yeah I think that was more like their very last resort because everything else had failed

You keep thinking the Schlecks wouldn't have blown up if they attacked more. They can feel their legs better than you.

Don't waste your time El-P, I've been trying to get this across for a while ... if the Schlecks didn't attack it's because they're morons, not because they didn't have the strength ... the excuse counts for everyone but them I've learned

 

[Captain_Cavman]

...

Well the team worked a lot to make the race hard and try to isolate Gilbert, which they succeeded. They didn't have the strongest rider but they had the strongest team, so they tried to play that to their advantage and thereby did a lot of harm to the peloton ... remember it wasn't only a race against Gilbert but against many other teams and possible candidates as well


...

Fair point, but I think they turned it into a Schleck Brothers vs Everybody Else, when they'd have been better off as part of Everybody Else vs Gilbert.

 

[hughmoore]

Let's see what Gilbert thought of the Schleck's tactics:

Now I know why the have the Zero on the back of their shirts.

Thats a great photo.


Hugh

 

[greatking88]

Meh. I don't buy it. Honestly all this "Gilbert would have been a tiny bit more tired" stuff is ridiculous IMO. You say it yourself - it wouldn't have mattered either way. Then why keep insisting on it? I think people try to pick out these little things in order to prove that the Schlecks lost the race due to bad tactics, when this was not at all the case.

You say that they "rolled over without a fight" - I would argue that they were the only ones who challenged Gilbert, if only a little bit. As someone pointed out, they had the third highest average speed ever, so it wasn't like they were setting a comfy pace for Gilbert. I would have prefered to see Di Luca, Rodriguez, Anton and so on up there but they weren't there. I didn't see their teams much, either. They are the ones who didn't put up a fight. People say they are excused because they didn't have the strength today, but for some reason that excuse is not valid for the Schlecks. I've been trying to tell you that they would have done more if they had had the strength, but apparently that counts for everyone except the Schlecks.



Yes IMO that is the biggest problem LEOPARD TREK has had this classics season: placing men in breaks. Today they could have sent Denifl, Lund or in the best case scenario Wegmann (although I'm not sure the peloton would have allowed him to be in there). This way they might have forced Gilbert, who had only Jelle left rather early on, to attack and pull by himself. On the other hand they could have lost everything because Lund or Denifl would have been no match for Gasparotto or van Avermaet (to name only the most obvious). If you look at LBL 2009, they had succeeded to place Kroon and Kolobnev up the road ... but of course those are riders of a different calibre.



Well the team worked a lot to make the race hard and try to isolate Gilbert, which they succeeded. They didn't have the strongest rider but they had the strongest team, so they tried to play that to their advantage and thereby did a lot of harm to the peloton ... remember it wasn't only a race against Gilbert but against many other teams and possible candidates as well



Yeah I think that was more like their very last resort because everything else had failed



Don't waste your time El-P, I've been trying to get this across for a while ... if the Schlecks didn't attack it's because they're morons, not because they didn't have the strength ... the excuse counts for everyone but them I've learned

But answer me why would Frank follow Andy's attack instead of waiting to see if Gilbert followed it first? Im not saying the Schlecks are morons, just dont understand that move..