A Question About Indurain...

[Ryo Hazuki]

Thanks for the laugh!

what is funny? I symply ask who he is

 

[Big Doopie]

150 pounds is 68 kg and 174. that's like evans, who the almost entire clinic, thinks is doped

150 lbs and a 95 VO2max now makes you unable to climb mountains without doping?

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

150 lbs and a 95 VO2max now makes you unable to climb mountains without doping?

I'm not saying that. I'm just merely pointing out how hypocrite people are here. in the 80s all the gt riders save the colombians, were build very big too

 

[jam pants]

what is funny? I symply ask who he is

Listen, Shenmue is a horrible, horrible game. Why don't you go race some forklifts and take a break from questioning the insight of former pros?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

150 lbs and a 95 VO2max now makes you unable to climb mountains without doping?

He knows sh@t. Stating LeMond was a climber? Laughable. The whole package of LeMond made him the Grand Tour winner he was, good TT, good climber, and smart as hell in the course. He was no Herrera on the mountains, he was no Robert Millar, he was complete. Not a one trick pony like Indurain was before he got the extra oxygen from Padilla and Conconi.

 

[hrotha]

He knows sh@t. Stating LeMond was a climber? Laughable. The whole package of LeMond made him the Grand Tour winner he was, good TT, good climber, and smart as hell in the course. He was no Herrera on the mountains, he was no Robert Millar, he was complete. Not a one trick pony like Indurain was before he got the extra oxygen from Padilla and Conconi.

Where did he say LeMond was a climber? As a specialist?

Also, to state that Indurain could never climb without EPO you need to assume he was one of the earliest adopters in the peloton, back in 1989 or even 1988. It's a possibility, but ultimately I don't think there's much evidence to suggest that.

 

[red_flanders]

If he was doping, he didn't start doping until '95.

Here is what a clean Indurain did to a doping Armstrong in '94:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGPGm38wt5g

See the action at the ~3:05 min mark.

Keep in mind that Lance, by his own admission, was doping at this time.

Clean Indurain >> dirty Lance.

Dave.

Whaaa? Why do you think he was clean then?

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

He knows sh@t. Stating LeMond was a climber? Laughable. The whole package of LeMond made him the Grand Tour winner he was, good TT, good climber, and smart as hell in the course. He was no Herrera on the mountains, he was no Robert Millar, he was complete. Not a one trick pony like Indurain was before he got the extra oxygen from Padilla and Conconi.

and indeed you are laughable.

 

[red_flanders]

but...but... but he lost 10 kgs. he did. he did. that's why he became a climber.

where have we heard that one before.

in 1991, indurain, chiappucci and bugno were on epo.

mottet, fignon, hampsten, lemond and leblanc were not.

That's certainly how it appeared to this viewer. I thought those performances were shocking and outrageous at the time, but had no clue what was going on.

 

[131313]

Where did he say LeMond was a climber? As a specialist?

Also, to state that Indurain could never climb without EPO you need to assume he was one of the earliest adopters in the peloton, back in 1989 or even 1988. It's a possibility, but ultimately I don't think there's much evidence to suggest that.

You're kidding, right? Take a look at Indurain's GT results prior to 89. Lots of DNF's and couple of Vuelta finishes just inside the top 100. Not too different that some other guy. His rise to prominence in GT's coincided with his relationship with Conconi, the Godfather of EPO use in the peloton. Much like the rise of Armstrong when he started working w/Conconi's #1 disciple.

That's not to say he wasn't a talented rider, but so was Armstrong. No one has any idea of his "real talent", and no one ever will, including Indurain himself. He was on the cutting edge of dope, and that's why he won 5 tours. Other dopers like Riis caught up with him and he lost the arms race.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

You're kidding, right? Take a look at Indurain's GT results prior to 89. Lots of DNF's and couple of Vuelta finishes just inside the top 100. Not too different that some other guy. His rise to prominence in GT's coincided with his relationship with Conconi, the Godfather of EPO use in the peloton. Much like the rise of Armstrong when he started working w/Conconi's #1 disciple.

That's not to say he wasn't a talented rider, but so was Armstrong. No one has any idea of his "real talent", and no one ever will, including Indurain himself. He was on the cutting edge of dope, and that's why he won 5 tours. Other dopers like Riis caught up with him and he lost the arms race.

he finished every tour he started in the 80s except his first in 86, when he was only 21 also the year he won avenir in

 

[ultimobici]

This is from 1990, generally considered the last EPO-free Tour.
http://youtu.be/702mu0o3xXY
Indurain seemingly could climb before EPO and for a 1m80+ rider doesnt seem that big either.

He may have been on EPO et al in his Tour run, but to say he was cannon fodder as many seem to be is disingenuous to say the lease.

 

[hrotha]

You're kidding, right? Take a look at Indurain's GT results prior to 89. Lots of DNF's and couple of Vuelta finishes just inside the top 100. Not too different that some other guy. His rise to prominence in GT's coincided with his relationship with Conconi, the Godfather of EPO use in the peloton. Much like the rise of Armstrong when he started working w/Conconi's #1 disciple.

That's not to say he wasn't a talented rider, but so was Armstrong. No one has any idea of his "real talent", and no one ever will, including Indurain himself. He was on the cutting edge of dope, and that's why he won 5 tours. Other dopers like Riis caught up with him and he lost the arms race.

How does that contradict anything I said?

Indurain being on EPO already in 1989 would make him one of the first users in the peloton. Which is a perfectly reasonable conclusion, mind, but it has its problems: it doesn't explain how Indurain kept getting better as EPO became more widespread, for one. It also doesn't explain why Delgado or the rest of the team wasn't given the same treatment.

 

[roundabout]

Chiappucci in yellow = not EPO-free Tour

 

[sniper]

This is from 1990, generally considered the last EPO-free Tour.
http://youtu.be/702mu0o3xXY
Indurain seemingly could climb before EPO and for a 1m80+ rider doesnt seem that big either.

He may have been on EPO et al in his Tour run, but to say he was cannon fodder as many seem to be is disingenuous to say the lease.

"generally considered"?
afaik, common sense is now that epo emerged in cycling in the late 80s.

 

[roundabout]

How does that contradict anything I said?

Indurain being on EPO already in 1989 would make him one of the first users in the peloton. Which is a perfectly reasonable conclusion, mind, but it has its problems: it doesn't explain how Indurain kept getting better as EPO became more widespread, for one. It also doesn't explain why Delgado or the rest of the team wasn't given the same treatment.

Who was better, Chiappucci or Berzin?

 

[hrotha]

Who was better, Chiappucci or Berzin?

What does this have to do with anything I said?

I'd have no trouble accepting that Indurain was an EPO pioneer - in fact, I'm arguing right now for that possibility at another forum. But the theory does have problems that should be addressed.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

How does that contradict anything I said?

Indurain being on EPO already in 1989 would make him one of the first users in the peloton. Which is a perfectly reasonable conclusion, mind, but it has its problems: it doesn't explain how Indurain kept getting better as EPO became more widespread, for one. It also doesn't explain why Delgado or the rest of the team wasn't given the same treatment.

exactly and indurain's itt improved phenomenally in the early 90s, while he could already climb like a beast in 90 and 89 and even that improved against riders, doped to the moon, unlike indurains opponents in 89 and 90

 

[Gregga]

I'm afraid we'll never know when Indurain started EPO, but for sure in 1990 he had an incredible improvement in the mountain compared to 1989 where he was struggling most of the time except maybe from the hilly ITT (stage 15)

As 1990 was clearly the first or second (maybe third ?) year of the EPO era, with at least Chiappucci and Bugno as pionneers, why not Indurain ?

 

[hrotha]

I'm afraid we'll never know when Indurain started EPO, but for sure in 1990 he had an incredible improvement in the mountain compared to 1989 where he was struggling most of the time except maybe from the hilly ITT (stage 15)

As 1990 was clearly the first or second (maybe third ?) year of the EPO era, with at least Chiappucci and Bugno as pionneers, why not Indurain ?

1990 is indeed a more reasonable date, but judging from his continued improvement over the mountains in subsequent Tours even when pitted against heavy EPO users, he would have had to have started with a conservative program. In 1990 and 1991 he was not obliterating everyone in the ITTs like in 1992-1994.

 

[Bag_O_Wallet]

he finished every tour he started in the 80s except his first in 86, when he was only 21 also the year he won avenir in

That's actually incorrect. It was the Tour of the EEC by that point, and didn't have a high caliber field that year. It's been a while since I've watched the youtube of it... but about the only thing spectacular about the event is Roy Knickman coming apart at the seams.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PIsuM5d03w

Indurain did win TT's in the real Tour de L'avenir... but I haven't been able to spot him in the top 30 of any of them.

His GT results prior to the 1989 Tour, which appears to be Gianni Bugno's break through GT also, are not notable - especially for a guy that ended up bagging 7.

Indurain, in my opinion, was an early adopter of EPO, and perhaps had to re-up things in 1994 and 1995, after getting run close by Ugrumov in the Giro, and put under a great deal of pressure by Rominger in the Tour in 1993.

I think the Tyler book suggested that Riis did EPO and 3 transfusions in the 1996 Tour. I wonder if there were earlier adopters of this type of strategy, with maybe fewer bags...

 

[roundabout]

What does this have to do with anything I said?

I'd have no trouble accepting that Indurain was an EPO pioneer - in fact, I'm arguing right now for that possibility at another forum. But the theory does have problems that should be addressed.

That it was possible to dope to varying degrees and be very successful both pre-Gewiss and after without having much underlying talent.

Except perhaps in responding to dope.

 

[spalco]

What does this have to do with anything I said?

I'd have no trouble accepting that Indurain was an EPO pioneer - in fact, I'm arguing right now for that possibility at another forum. But the theory does have problems that should be addressed.

You are completely right, but the first part of what you said earlier can be explained by what we know already.

From my amateurish understanding, taking only EPO indiscriminately does not weild optimal results, but it's better to supplement it with other substances, iron or whatever. Maybe it took Conconi, Ferrari, et al a couple years to figure out the ideal dosage for certain points in pre-Tour training while adding certain other substances to unleash the drug's full potential.

 

[the asian]

Wikipedia reports that Indurain began consulting Conconi from 87, so it's certainly possible that he started using EPO from at least 89 onwards.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Where did he say LeMond was a climber? As a specialist?

Also, to state that Indurain could never climb without EPO you need to assume he was one of the earliest adopters in the peloton, back in 1989 or even 1988. It's a possibility, but ultimately I don't think there's much evidence to suggest that.

You are right, that was not nice of me. I am sorry those fanboys pi$$ me off. Thanks for the correction.