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Any normal person would have just asked for all years up to 2013.Dear Wiggo said:Do you have the figures for 2005, 2009 and 2012 / 2013?
Benotti69 said:Humans respond in different ways to medications.
Why do some people die from some diseases while others are cured!
Saint Unix said:
Shows the average power output on the climbs for various TdF winners. What does this tell us? Indurain wasn't superhuman during his first two wins, but something huge happened in 1993, and Indurain without a shadow of a doubt in my mind, started using EPO then at the latest. It also shows how completely messed up the mid-90's were. EPO free-for-all, basically.
What average would be reasonable evidence?SundayRider said:SO just because someone averages 5.7 W/Kg its hardly great evidence for clean sport is it.
Saint Unix said:
Shows the average power output on the climbs for various TdF winners. What does this tell us? Indurain wasn't superhuman during his first two wins, but something huge happened in 1993, and Indurain without a shadow of a doubt in my mind, started using EPO then at the latest. It also shows how completely messed up the mid-90's were. EPO free-for-all, basically.
Didn't some (Dutch?) riders die in the late 80s/early 90s? It has been strongly suggested it was because they raised their HCT too high using EPO.Ryo Hazuki said:examples of riders responding badly to epo? never heard of them.
More likely that poor responders would be lucky to get beyond continental levelDon't be late Pedro said:Didn't some (Dutch?) riders die in the late 80s/early 90s? It has been strongly suggested it was because they raised their HCT too high using EPO.
I would argue that is responding badly.
Don't be late Pedro said:Didn't some (Dutch?) riders die in the late 80s/early 90s? It has been strongly suggested it was because they raised their HCT too high using EPO.
I would argue that is responding badly.
Ryo Hazuki said:examples of riders responding badly to epo? never heard of them.
Le breton said:Of course, because they didn't "make it" to the top level. Anybody with a high natural Hct will respond poorly compared to another rider with a low natural Hct. (of course other factors will certainly come into the game, but let us just consider that one)
Let's take my own case.
When I lived in Bolivia, spending 108 hours at 3500 m and 60 hours at 5220 m. altitude every week (weekly average 4100 m), my Hct most likely reached around 52-55% after a few months.
What do you think would have have happened if I had been given EPO a la Pantani/Indurain/Armstrong/Virenque/Riis?
Do you think I would be typing on a keyboard right now?
My own guess is I would have responded extremely badly, like passing away.
Ryo Hazuki said:so much bull**** indurain was brought by echavarry and unzue, known to be VERY careful ALWAYS with their talents. indurain was a huge prospect alreayd in early 80s as a talent. pre-epo no doubt. he was already winning and dominating smaller stage races like paris nice at young age in first half of 80s. pre epo. in the 1990 tour he was the strongest rider by far in the tour already despite him not finishing in top 10. 1990 tour that lemond could still win pre-epo perhaps
Ryo Hazuki said:examples of riders responding badly to epo? never heard of them.
Ryo Hazuki said:examples of riders responding badly to epo? never heard of them.
Benotti69 said:Shows how much you know, Stephen Swart. Not too many talk about their doping past.
Also if a rider had a high HcT 47% he could not take a lot of EPO before reaching the cut off point of 50%, whereas a guy with a HcT of 38% can take lots to get his HcT up to 50%.
Le breton said:In 1991 too few climbs could be used therefore the average is meaningless.
Just look at the Alpe d'Huez climb for 1991 and you will see that something new was happening.
Concerning 1992, I would have to go back to it to explain the "low value", don't remember off-hand.
I don't know who produced the graph but it shows the resilience of absurd pseudo data, such as the 6.97 W/kg for L.A. which I have denounced on this forum many many years ago.
Wallace and Gromit said:Mig won Paris-Nice in 1989-90, which is notably not the first half of the 1980s.
He didn't win anything of note other than the Tour de l'Avenir in 1986 prior to the Volta a Catalunya in 1988 when he was nearly 24.
By contrast, Hinault had won two Tours, one Vuelta, the Dauphine twice, LBL, Gent Wevelgem, La Fleche Wallon, the Giro Lombardia and 2 GP des Nations by age 24.
Wallace and Gromit said:I think for Mig's era the issue was simply one of how well a rider responded to EPO. The 50% test was introduced from 1997, if memory serves. Coincidentally or otherwise, Mig retired at the end of 1996, whilst still quite young.
Benotti69 said:Shows how much you know, Stephen Swart. Not too many talk about their doping past.
Also if a rider had a high HcT 47% he could not take a lot of EPO before reaching the cut off point of 50%, whereas a guy with a HcT of 38% can take lots to get his HcT up to 50%.
Wallace and Gromit said:I think for Mig's era the issue was simply one of how well a rider responded to EPO. The 50% test was introduced from 1997, if memory serves. Coincidentally or otherwise, Mig retired at the end of 1996, whilst still quite young.
Ryo Hazuki said:he retired at age 32, when being 32 wasn't young at all but rather old. maybe he retired because he saw guys like riis getting more insane with the year.
Wallace and Gromit said:Fair point. After his career to that point, the prospect of continuing against Ullrich and Pantani was probably not an appealing one, particularly if he was a "Mr 55%" or something at that level.