A Question About Indurain...

[Dear Wiggo]

Do you have the figures for 2005, 2009 and 2012 / 2013?

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Do you have the figures for 2005, 2009 and 2012 / 2013?

Any normal person would have just asked for all years up to 2013.
Why would you actually want less 'data points'?

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Humans respond in different ways to medications.

Why do some people die from some diseases while others are cured!

examples of riders responding badly to epo? never heard of them.

 

[SundayRider]

Shows the average power output on the climbs for various TdF winners. What does this tell us? Indurain wasn't superhuman during his first two wins, but something huge happened in 1993, and Indurain without a shadow of a doubt in my mind, started using EPO then at the latest. It also shows how completely messed up the mid-90's were. EPO free-for-all, basically.

SO just because someone averages 5.7 W/Kg its hardly great evidence for clean sport is it.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

SO just because someone averages 5.7 W/Kg its hardly great evidence for clean sport is it.

What average would be reasonable evidence?

 

[Le breton]

Shows the average power output on the climbs for various TdF winners. What does this tell us? Indurain wasn't superhuman during his first two wins, but something huge happened in 1993, and Indurain without a shadow of a doubt in my mind, started using EPO then at the latest. It also shows how completely messed up the mid-90's were. EPO free-for-all, basically.

In 1991 too few climbs could be used therefore the average is meaningless.
Just look at the Alpe d'Huez climb for 1991 and you will see that something new was happening.
Concerning 1992, I would have to go back to it to explain the "low value", don't remember off-hand.

I don't know who produced the graph but it shows the resilience of absurd pseudo data, such as the 6.97 W/kg for L.A. which I have denounced on this forum many many years ago.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

examples of riders responding badly to epo? never heard of them.

Didn't some (Dutch?) riders die in the late 80s/early 90s? It has been strongly suggested it was because they raised their HCT too high using EPO.

I would argue that is responding badly.

 

[42x16ss]

Didn't some (Dutch?) riders die in the late 80s/early 90s? It has been strongly suggested it was because they raised their HCT too high using EPO.

I would argue that is responding badly.

More likely that poor responders would be lucky to get beyond continental level

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Didn't some (Dutch?) riders die in the late 80s/early 90s? It has been strongly suggested it was because they raised their HCT too high using EPO.

I would argue that is responding badly.

there's never been any evidence of that and even if that happened that doesn't mean they responded badly to it. they just used too much

 

[manafana]

Have agree it does seem Indurian came in and was better than rest, then they caught up with him and he decided to get that gap back

 

[Le breton]

examples of riders responding badly to epo? never heard of them.

Of course, because they didn't "make it" to the top level. Anybody with a high natural Hct will respond poorly compared to another rider with a low natural Hct. (of course other factors will certainly come into the game, but let us just consider that one)

Let's take my own case.
When I lived in Bolivia, spending 108 hours at 3500 m and 60 hours at 5220 m. altitude every week (weekly average 4100 m), my Hct most likely reached around 52-55% after a few months.

What do you think would have have happened if I had been given EPO a la Pantani/Indurain/Armstrong/Virenque/Riis?

Do you think I would be typing on a keyboard right now?
My own guess is I would have responded extremely badly, like passing away.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Of course, because they didn't "make it" to the top level. Anybody with a high natural Hct will respond poorly compared to another rider with a low natural Hct. (of course other factors will certainly come into the game, but let us just consider that one)

Let's take my own case.
When I lived in Bolivia, spending 108 hours at 3500 m and 60 hours at 5220 m. altitude every week (weekly average 4100 m), my Hct most likely reached around 52-55% after a few months.

What do you think would have have happened if I had been given EPO a la Pantani/Indurain/Armstrong/Virenque/Riis?

Do you think I would be typing on a keyboard right now?
My own guess is I would have responded extremely badly, like passing away.

by responding badly I didn't mean having no effect. I meant what I sai.d I know colombians don't have as much to gain for instance from epo. but saying indurain had all the benefits of epo use and delgado didn't (1990 tour) seem like nonsense unles someone can explain me else.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

so much bull**** indurain was brought by echavarry and unzue, known to be VERY careful ALWAYS with their talents. indurain was a huge prospect alreayd in early 80s as a talent. pre-epo no doubt. he was already winning and dominating smaller stage races like paris nice at young age in first half of 80s. pre epo. in the 1990 tour he was the strongest rider by far in the tour already despite him not finishing in top 10. 1990 tour that lemond could still win pre-epo perhaps

Mig won Paris-Nice in 1989-90, which is notably not the first half of the 1980s.

He didn't win anything of note other than the Tour de l'Avenir in 1986 prior to the Volta a Catalunya in 1988 when he was nearly 24.

By contrast, Hinault had won two Tours, one Vuelta, the Dauphine twice, LBL, Gent Wevelgem, La Fleche Wallon, the Giro Lombardia and 2 GP des Nations by age 24.

 

[M Sport]

examples of riders responding badly to epo? never heard of them.

Stephen Swart? In his deposition he stated some riders had a negative effect.

 

[del1962]

Weird isnt it, I read Di Canio say that when he took EPO he would feel really strong, but did not want to win the race (due to guilt I assume) so would work for his team mates but not really contest the win.

 

[Benotti69]

examples of riders responding badly to epo? never heard of them.

Shows how much you know, Stephen Swart. Not too many talk about their doping past.

Also if a rider had a high HcT 47% he could not take a lot of EPO before reaching the cut off point of 50%, whereas a guy with a HcT of 38% can take lots to get his HcT up to 50%.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Shows how much you know, Stephen Swart. Not too many talk about their doping past.

Also if a rider had a high HcT 47% he could not take a lot of EPO before reaching the cut off point of 50%, whereas a guy with a HcT of 38% can take lots to get his HcT up to 50%.

I think for Mig's era the issue was simply one of how well a rider responded to EPO. The 50% test was introduced from 1997, if memory serves. Coincidentally or otherwise, Mig retired at the end of 1996, whilst still quite young.

 

[D-Queued]

In 1991 too few climbs could be used therefore the average is meaningless.
Just look at the Alpe d'Huez climb for 1991 and you will see that something new was happening.
Concerning 1992, I would have to go back to it to explain the "low value", don't remember off-hand.

I don't know who produced the graph but it shows the resilience of absurd pseudo data, such as the 6.97 W/kg for L.A. which I have denounced on this forum many many years ago.

Yes, the 1992 data is odd. According to Merckx, 1992 was the 'Tear of the Double' (Mig takes Tour #2, takes Giro & Tour; Bugno takes World's #2).

Maybe the data can be explained by Mig's domination over his competition? As I vaguely recall, Cappucino and Bugno faded quickly at the Tour. back then, Merckx stated that Bugno had "messed up his Tour de France ride".

Quoting Merckx on Indurain:

"Last year I said that Miguel Indurain's win in theTour de France would only become significant if he managed to win another Tour de France. Well, he did that and more besides. Indurain is quite simply the best rider in the sport at the moment...

When you dominate races the way Miguel Indurain has done in 1992, there are always calls for you to do more. Taking into account his time trialling, it is natural that he should think about the world hour record. I've been saying that for a coup of years now that he is well able to beat it, much more so than Francesco Moser who has also been talking about having another crack at it."

At the end of 1992, Indurain had 2539.47 FICP points compared to runner up Rominger with 1608 and Cappucino with 1607.

The 1992 Tour may well have been a ride-over for Big Mig.

Dave.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Mig won Paris-Nice in 1989-90, which is notably not the first half of the 1980s.

He didn't win anything of note other than the Tour de l'Avenir in 1986 prior to the Volta a Catalunya in 1988 when he was nearly 24.

By contrast, Hinault had won two Tours, one Vuelta, the Dauphine twice, LBL, Gent Wevelgem, La Fleche Wallon, the Giro Lombardia and 2 GP des Nations by age 24.

This. Lemond had a similar trajectory.

Add to that the always helpful EPO in Europe timeline URL.

http://www2.iaaf.org/TheSport/Science/NSA15_1/Bibliography.html

1987 - EPO introduced to Europe
1988 FIS (that's Olympic Skiing) bans use of EPO.

Not even 12 months passed. It's properties *had* to be well known in international sport if the sports federation knew about it.

 

[Netserk]

I think for Mig's era the issue was simply one of how well a rider responded to EPO. The 50% test was introduced from 1997, if memory serves. Coincidentally or otherwise, Mig retired at the end of 1996, whilst still quite young.

AFAIK he was older when he retired than (the prior five-time winner of the Tour) Hinault was.

 

[robow7]

show me one other rider ever that climbed the way he did at 176 lbs (according to wiki) day after day and that we feel was likely clean?

crickets...............................

He was giving up 25 or more pounds to Lemond. I'll bet he would have been a modern day Cancellara, hell on the TT's and flat one day races but no way he hangs with those little flyweights up the mountains only to abuse them on the ITT.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Shows how much you know, Stephen Swart. Not too many talk about their doping past.

Also if a rider had a high HcT 47% he could not take a lot of EPO before reaching the cut off point of 50%, whereas a guy with a HcT of 38% can take lots to get his HcT up to 50%.

there was no cut off point when indurain was racing

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

I think for Mig's era the issue was simply one of how well a rider responded to EPO. The 50% test was introduced from 1997, if memory serves. Coincidentally or otherwise, Mig retired at the end of 1996, whilst still quite young.

he retired at age 32, when being 32 wasn't young at all but rather old. maybe he retired because he saw guys like riis getting more insane with the year.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

he retired at age 32, when being 32 wasn't young at all but rather old. maybe he retired because he saw guys like riis getting more insane with the year.

Fair point. After his career to that point, the prospect of continuing against Ullrich and Pantani was probably not an appealing one, particularly if he was a "Mr 55%" or something at that level.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Fair point. After his career to that point, the prospect of continuing against Ullrich and Pantani was probably not an appealing one, particularly if he was a "Mr 55%" or something at that level.

pantani and ullrich actually were not the dopers they may have seemed to indurain, but by then you couldn't know anything anymore. I'm sure he saw in 1996 guys like luttenberger (and ullrich) who was 10 years younger and thought I have 5 tourwins, a lot of money, 32 with a family and still in good health, well this is it then. I can happily retire