Teams & Riders Alberto Contador Discussion Thread

[dacooley]

Re: Re:

His Giro level would've been more than enough to be up there with Quintana and Froome, and fight for the win.

lol

Hmm, 5.96 w/kg on abetone, 5.97 w/kg on campitello matese, 5.81 w/kg on monte Ologno.

The only better performance in this Tour, is Froome's 6.09 on la Pierre. Today, Quintana did 5.69 w/kg for 44 mins on la Toussuire.

It's fair to say that he'd have competed for the win . But the usual bias will make you think not.

do you seriously find yourself not a positively biased in bertie's favor? lol. his this year's peak was in the giro. with regards to the double, well that was predictable, contador cannot his absolute peak every season like in 2009 or 2014 (which was still under light doubt), so he's way off his best conditions this season as a whole. coming down all this stuff to power outputs is not quite correct

 

[Miburo]

It hurts seeing him get dropped like that, it feels the exact same way as in 2013. And this tour was made for him but ok there's always next year.

Just don't ride anything anymore this year and rest out.

 

[Taxus4a]

Contador is doing a meritable Tour. He is the best after the other big names and valverde with hot. Bot easy after to win il Giro. I thinj wothout the Giro he wanst at the lebel of Froome and Quintana, but of course with this performance it is just an opinion, becouse he is strong.

He has showed for sure he can recover well from a GT. Not everybody can do it mentally and phisically.

I think Froome is another of those guys, We will see if he go for la Vuelta if he win le Tour, becouse you are always very busy in august: criteriums, celebrations,...With Quintana, Nibali, Van Garderen and Valverde again and with Aru, Landa, Pozzovivo, Bananito from il Giro will be really difficult.

But first and 5th is a good result IMO, and it is good to see him attacking from far, that help to do the stage harder and more spectacular at the end, even with a not very strong attack.

 

[bala v]

Re: Re:

Contador would love to get a stage victory, and in order to do that, I think he can't wait for the Alpe d'Huez.
Croix de Fer is probably too far for his current shape, and there are Nibali and Valverde, but the mutual interest could be found.
He'll try, I'm convinced

What mutual interest! They're all targeting the final podium spot, those three are like the worst enemies right now! Contador is probably the least interested, but they won't let him go, and he's not strong enough to drop them for good

Mutual interest for sharing the workload, not the GC battle.
The stage is on offer, and neither of them will fancy their chances against Froome and Quintana.

Those three will not share the workload for 10 m, believe me...

 

[BlurryVII]

Re: Re:

His Giro level would've been more than enough to be up there with Quintana and Froome, and fight for the win.

lol

Hmm, 5.96 w/kg on abetone, 5.97 w/kg on campitello matese, 5.81 w/kg on monte Ologno.

The only better performance in this Tour, is Froome's 6.09 on la Pierre. Today, Quintana did 5.69 w/kg for 44 mins on la Toussuire.

It's fair to say that he'd have competed for the win . But the usual bias will make you think not.

do you seriously find yourself not a positively biased in bertie's favor? lol. his this year's peak was in the giro. with regards to the double, well that was predictable, contador cannot his absolute peak every season like in 2009 or 2014 (which was still under light doubt), so he's way off his best conditions this season as a whole

I have a hard time understanding your point though? How is putting up numbers, being biased? How's is him not being at his 2009 / 2014 form relevant to the discussion?

I said his Giro level would've been enough to fight for the win in this Tour, and that is entirely true. Froome is pretty good in this Tour but not better than AC - Landa from the Giro. Being biased, is thinking since we're at the Tour, the performances are obviously much better than anywhere else, which is entirely false this year.

But you'll realise that when Froome's average w/kg will be estimated at the end.

And unfortunately, that's serious sam's mind. He thinks since we're at the Tour, everything is obviously better but the level not as good as expected by a mile.

 

[sir fly]

Re: Re:

Contador would love to get a stage victory, and in order to do that, I think he can't wait for the Alpe d'Huez.
Croix de Fer is probably too far for his current shape, and there are Nibali and Valverde, but the mutual interest could be found.
He'll try, I'm convinced

What mutual interest! They're all targeting the final podium spot, those three are like the worst enemies right now! Contador is probably the least interested, but they won't let him go, and he's not strong enough to drop them for good

Mutual interest for sharing the workload, not the GC battle.
The stage is on offer, and neither of them will fancy their chances against Froome and Quintana.

Those three will not share the workload for 10 m, believe me...

Yes, their vanity is bigger than Alpe d'Huez, we can speculate.

 

[SergeDeM]

Re:

It's just fun to put things in perspective and realise that Froome was stronger in the 3rd week of the Vuelta 2014 than in this entire Tour including la Pierre saint martin.

The overall level is quite low in this Tour actually, but people will think the contrary because it's the Tour. But the fact is that Contador and Landa Giro 15' version would be up there in the mountains with F and Q.

Or maybe there are several riders at a very high competitive level throughout the year?
It's not like everybody decided to take it easy this year

 

[Metabolol]

All in all Contador has done really well. I don't think Froome would have done much better given the same circumstances. I don't think the Giro-Tour double is impossible but everything has to click: strong team, perfect route, weak opposition, luck etc. In other words it's not likely anyone will manage it in the near future.

Had Contador targeted this Tour and achieved peak shape he could definitely have won this Tour.

 

[BlurryVII]

Re: Re:

It's just fun to put things in perspective and realise that Froome was stronger in the 3rd week of the Vuelta 2014 than in this entire Tour including la Pierre saint martin.

The overall level is quite low in this Tour actually, but people will think the contrary because it's the Tour. But the fact is that Contador and Landa Giro 15' version would be up there in the mountains with F and Q.

Or maybe there are several riders at a very high competitive level throughout the year?
It's not like everybody decided to take it easy this year

Not sure to understand your point. Despite the great field, nothing spectaculary happened on the other moutain stages, may it be Pra loup or plateau de beille. Today, that's it.

No one took it easy at the 2014 Vuelta, I'm not sure to understand what you're saying. The field was also very similar to this Tour. Aru instead of Nibali.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

All in all Contador has done really well. I don't think Froome would have done much better given the same circumstances. I don't think the Giro-Tour double is impossible but everything has to click: strong team, perfect route, weak opposition, luck etc. In other words it's not likely anyone will manage it in the near future.

Had Contador targeted this Tour and achieved peak shape he could definitely have won this Tour.

I agree. He is doing quite well but as you said everything has to work out to do the double.

 

[SergeDeM]

Re: Re:

It's just fun to put things in perspective and realise that Froome was stronger in the 3rd week of the Vuelta 2014 than in this entire Tour including la Pierre saint martin.

The overall level is quite low in this Tour actually, but people will think the contrary because it's the Tour. But the fact is that Contador and Landa Giro 15' version would be up there in the mountains with F and Q.

Or maybe there are several riders at a very high competitive level throughout the year?
It's not like everybody decided to take it easy this year

Not sure to understand your point. Despite the great field, nothing spectaculary happened on the other moutain stages, may it be Pra loup or plateau de beille. Today, that's it.

No one took it easy at the 2014 Vuelta, I'm not sure to understand what you're saying. The field was also very similar to this Tour. Aru instead of Nibali.

My point is that saying the overall level is quite low is a bold and disrespectful statement.
Out of curiosity, what do you think about the lever in last year's tour?

 

[SeriousSam]

Re:

It's just fun to put things in perspective and realise that Froome was stronger in the 3rd week of the Vuelta 2014 than in this entire Tour including la Pierre saint martin.

The overall level is quite low in this Tour actually, but people will think the contrary because it's the Tour. But the fact is that Contador and Landa Giro 15' version would be up there in the mountains with F and Q.

But he wasn't. If you actually believe Froome was stronger in the Vuelta than he was in this Tour, you probably also believe Peraud would have been on Froome's wheel up PSM and also but a minute into Quintana if only he had last year's form. Cos dem power numbers.

 

[BlurryVII]

Re: Re:

It's just fun to put things in perspective and realise that Froome was stronger in the 3rd week of the Vuelta 2014 than in this entire Tour including la Pierre saint martin.

The overall level is quite low in this Tour actually, but people will think the contrary because it's the Tour. But the fact is that Contador and Landa Giro 15' version would be up there in the mountains with F and Q.

But he wasn't. If you actually believe Froome was stronger in the Vuelta than he was in this Tour, you probably also believe Peraud would have been on Froome's wheel up PSM and also but a minute into Quintana if only he had last year's form. Cos dem power numbers.

I don't think Péraud did 6.09 w/kg for 40 minutes at any point last year, so I don't get the comparison at all here.

And yes he was stronger in the 3rd week of the Vuelta 14'. Not the entire Vuelta, the 3rd week, he was very similar to what he did on la Pierre saint martin.

Much stronger than he is now in the Alps.

 

[BlurryVII]

Re: Re:

It's just fun to put things in perspective and realise that Froome was stronger in the 3rd week of the Vuelta 2014 than in this entire Tour including la Pierre saint martin.

The overall level is quite low in this Tour actually, but people will think the contrary because it's the Tour. But the fact is that Contador and Landa Giro 15' version would be up there in the mountains with F and Q.

Or maybe there are several riders at a very high competitive level throughout the year?
It's not like everybody decided to take it easy this year

Not sure to understand your point. Despite the great field, nothing spectaculary happened on the other moutain stages, may it be Pra loup or plateau de beille. Today, that's it.

No one took it easy at the 2014 Vuelta, I'm not sure to understand what you're saying. The field was also very similar to this Tour. Aru instead of Nibali.

My point is that saying the overall level is quite low is a bold and disrespectful statement.
Out of curiosity, what do you think about the lever in last year's tour?

I think there's a misurderstanding. The field is great in this Tour, not the Level on the climbs. You're confusing field and level. Nibali is a great name for this Tour, but he is not half what he was last year. Contador obviously is screwed up by the Giro.
Rodriguez aging, can't reach the level he had at Vuelta 12' - Tour 13'. Nothing much happened in the mountains between the favorites and the numbers aren't stratospherical at all.

 

[dacooley]

Re: Re:

His Giro level would've been more than enough to be up there with Quintana and Froome, and fight for the win.

lol

Hmm, 5.96 w/kg on abetone, 5.97 w/kg on campitello matese, 5.81 w/kg on monte Ologno.

The only better performance in this Tour, is Froome's 6.09 on la Pierre. Today, Quintana did 5.69 w/kg for 44 mins on la Toussuire.

It's fair to say that he'd have competed for the win . But the usual bias will make you think not.

do you seriously find yourself not a positively biased in bertie's favor? lol. his this year's peak was in the giro. with regards to the double, well that was predictable, contador cannot his absolute peak every season like in 2009 or 2014 (which was still under light doubt), so he's way off his best conditions this season as a whole

I have a hard time understanding your point though? How is putting up numbers, being biased? How's is him not being at his 2009 / 2014 form relevant to the discussion?

I said his Giro level would've been enough to fight for the win in this Tour, and that is entirely true. Froome is pretty good in this Tour but not better than AC - Landa from the Giro. Being biased, is thinking since we're at the Tour, the performances are obviously much better than anywhere else, which is entirely false this year.

But you'll realise that when Froome's average w/kg will be estimated at the end.

And unfortunately, that's serious sam's mind. He thinks since we're at the Tour, everything is obviously better but the level not as good as expected by a mile.

my point is one cannot compare different gts and make categorical conclusions like you sometimes do. i have no clue how bertie would've performed in this tour having the giro form, all opinions on that are utterly сonjectural. comparing power outputs is a quite primitive model. different gts have different racing intensity, different tactical plots, different conditions, weather and wind on mtfs - million other circumstances and that's impossible just to boil it down to numbers. my humble impression is the giro required an extreme effort from alberto. probably the field was seriously underrated by him or that's not just his year. be that as it may, i share your disappointment from his perfomance but it's not the reason to mark the level of the tour down. the general level of this tdf is very high.

 

[jmdirt]

AC has proven me wrong! I thought that his recovery and then reset from the GdI would have his form improving as the stages ticked by...that didn't happen. Obviously he has still been solid though.

 

[SeriousSam]

Re: Re:

It's just fun to put things in perspective and realise that Froome was stronger in the 3rd week of the Vuelta 2014 than in this entire Tour including la Pierre saint martin.

The overall level is quite low in this Tour actually, but people will think the contrary because it's the Tour. But the fact is that Contador and Landa Giro 15' version would be up there in the mountains with F and Q.

But he wasn't. If you actually believe Froome was stronger in the Vuelta than he was in this Tour, you probably also believe Peraud would have been on Froome's wheel up PSM and also but a minute into Quintana if only he had last year's form. Cos dem power numbers.

I don't think Péraud did 6.09 w/kg for 40 minutes at any point last year, so I don't get the comparison at all here.

And yes he was stronger in the 3rd week of the Vuelta 14'. Not the entire Vuelta, the 3rd week, he was very similar to what he did on la Pierre saint martin.

Much stronger than he is now in the Alps.

You're right, he didn't for 40 min. But eg Nibali did up the Hautacam. And Quintana's Alpe from 2013 was that level as well iirc.

When I check out jen's climbing times website, I see that the same people doing the same climbs over the years have quite different times, and hence w/kgs. I don't think that's variation in their ability but variation in external circumstances, and for that reason I'm not confident at all that dropping Hautacam Nibali into PSM results in him winning the stage or being close to it.

 

[Metabolol]

Actually comparing power outputs does tell you a lot about strength in the mountains. But as we have seen this Tour you can gain and lose time at other places than in the mountains. Nibali in last year's shape would have been very close to Froome in the climbs and in other words he would had a good shot at winning this Tour. Contador from last year's vuelta would have been right there up with Froome on stage 10.

Quintana has this Tour shown that he can match Froome over several mountain stages but he can't match Froome on a single all out climb if they are both fresh and in top shape.

 

[SeriousSam]

I wonder if Quintana could have matched Froome by just trying harder and going into the red. It blows my mind that a guy like Porte can apparently do a single long climb quicker than Quintana.

 

[Metabolol]

Re:

I wonder if Quintana could have matched Froome by just trying harder and going into the red. It blows my mind that a guy like Porte can apparently do a single long climb quicker than Quintana.

It would have been very interesting if everything else in this tour would have been the same but the final climb on stage 10 would have angliru or zoncolan. I doubt very much Froome would have put 1min into Quintana in that case even if both are fresh going into that climb.

 

[SergeDeM]

Re: Re:

It's just fun to put things in perspective and realise that Froome was stronger in the 3rd week of the Vuelta 2014 than in this entire Tour including la Pierre saint martin.

The overall level is quite low in this Tour actually, but people will think the contrary because it's the Tour. But the fact is that Contador and Landa Giro 15' version would be up there in the mountains with F and Q.

Or maybe there are several riders at a very high competitive level throughout the year?
It's not like everybody decided to take it easy this year

Not sure to understand your point. Despite the great field, nothing spectaculary happened on the other moutain stages, may it be Pra loup or plateau de beille. Today, that's it.

No one took it easy at the 2014 Vuelta, I'm not sure to understand what you're saying. The field was also very similar to this Tour. Aru instead of Nibali.

My point is that saying the overall level is quite low is a bold and disrespectful statement.
Out of curiosity, what do you think about the lever in last year's tour?

I think there's a misurderstanding. The field is great in this Tour, not the Level on the climbs. You're confusing field and level. Nibali is a great name for this Tour, but he is not half what he was last year. Contador obviously is screwed up by the Giro.
Rodriguez aging, can't reach the level he had at Vuelta 12' - Tour 13'. Nothing much happened in the mountains between the favorites and the numbers aren't stratospherical at all.

No misunderstanding. I'm not talking about names. I'm saying it's absurd to think all riders showed up at low levels. Those who show up are ready and doing their best, and just because -bar one day- they all are at a very similar level doesn't mean they're all doing poorly. It means the show is less spectacular, but it doesn't mean these guys here now would've bit the dust at last year's Vuelta.

 

[Metabolol]

Re:

I wonder if Quintana could have matched Froome by just trying harder and going into the red. It blows my mind that a guy like Porte can apparently do a single long climb quicker than Quintana.

Quintana might have performed better on the first mountain stage had he done the dauphine instead of the route de sude.

 

[BlurryVII]

Re:

- Nibali in last year's shape would have been very close to Froome in the climbs and in other words he would had a good shot at winning this Tour.

-Contador from last year's vuelta would have been right there up with Froome on stage 10.

-Quintana has this Tour shown that he can match Froome over several mountain stages but he can't match Froome on a single all out climb if they are both fresh and in top shape.

Exactly what I think.

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

It's just fun to put things in perspective and realise that Froome was stronger in the 3rd week of the Vuelta 2014 than in this entire Tour including la Pierre saint martin.

The overall level is quite low in this Tour actually, but people will think the contrary because it's the Tour. But the fact is that Contador and Landa Giro 15' version would be up there in the mountains with F and Q.

But he wasn't. If you actually believe Froome was stronger in the Vuelta than he was in this Tour, you probably also believe Peraud would have been on Froome's wheel up PSM and also but a minute into Quintana if only he had last year's form. Cos dem power numbers.

Come on Sam, Froome has struggled the last 2 days. Stronger opposition and he would have lost time just like he did to Bertie at the Vuelta. He would have lost time to Nibs today however the race had played out. Nibs was way stronger and if Nibs sat on Froomes wheel until the last climb instead of attacking the way he did his attack on the last climb would have been even more damaging.

I have to say Nibs has impressed me a lot with his attitude and fighting spirit and I think last years victory now looks better. It would have taken something special to have beaten him.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Jens Voigt ‏@thejensie 6h6 hours ago
What an awesome start! @albertocontador in the break already! True grit! Never give up. Chapeaux pour Alberto! @letour