Teams & Riders Alberto Contador Discussion Thread

[rhubroma]

Re:

If you teleport '95 Indurain into today's cycling, he would probably manage triple (Giro-Tour double is definitely certain) as he would be way too strong compared to anyone else. Even '09 Contador is not even close to Indurain in terms of absolute power.

On what grounds? 95 Indurain struggled against Ugrimov! 96 Indurain lost to Riis! Contador would have slayed Indurain in the mountains, only 100ks of flat TTing could have made up the difference.

I also mention this in regards to the rest of the season: Contador has won just about every other stage race imaginable.

 

[Fernandez]

In my mind Indurain would have destroyed Contador. Regarding GTs, Indurain did back to back Giro-Tour double in 92 and 93, a thing that he is the only one who has done it. But also he was another two times close to doubles: Vuelta-Tour 91 and Giro-Tour 94. Indurain was just a natural monster, capable of climb with the very best and even better, and time trial like a high speed train. I dont see Contador winning Big Mig.

 

[cantpedal]

Re: Re:

fuente de wasn't an extremely risky move, by then bertie virtually secured podium spot and if rodriguez had caught contador the peloton would have just reunited and all of them would quietly cruised to the finish line. landis' bloodbath and the 2000 tour solo from pantani is what i really call an all-or-nothing long-range attack.

If it wasn't risky why do we see such moves so rarely, in fact Bertie is the only big GC rider that frequently tries such a move.

In the deep, deep freeze here and yesterday I watched T-A 2014. Contador while holding a slim lead went from 32km out, hunted down the break 4+ minutes ahead and won the stage and the race with total Panache by over 2 minutes on Nairito. Who else in the modern day peloton does this kind of thing? Total class with an adventurous spirit; he's the man!

Andy did and in a much bigger race

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

fuente de wasn't an extremely risky move, by then bertie virtually secured podium spot and if rodriguez had caught contador the peloton would have just reunited and all of them would quietly cruised to the finish line. landis' bloodbath and the 2000 tour solo from pantani is what i really call an all-or-nothing long-range attack.

If it wasn't risky why do we see such moves so rarely, in fact Bertie is the only big GC rider that frequently tries such a move.

In the deep, deep freeze here and yesterday I watched T-A 2014. Contador while holding a slim lead went from 32km out, hunted down the break 4+ minutes ahead and won the stage and the race with total Panache by over 2 minutes on Nairito. Who else in the modern day peloton does this kind of thing? Total class with an adventurous spirit; he's the man!

Andy did and in a much bigger race

That was a belated (but spectacular and gutsy) attempt to win from 2nd, but too late. Contador was already in the lead, when just about any other rider would have been content to defend.

 

[42x16ss]

Re:

In my mind Indurain would have destroyed Contador. Regarding GTs, Indurain did back to back Giro-Tour double in 92 and 93, a thing that he is the only one who has done it. But also he was another two times close to doubles: Vuelta-Tour 91 and Giro-Tour 94. Indurain was just a natural monster, capable of climb with the very best and even better, and time trial like a high speed train. I dont see Contador winning Big Mig.

Of course Indurain would have obliterated Contador. At his best he could even annihilate Pantani.

He was the best in the "unrestricted" era, so Contador would have had no chance. I'll leave it there though, as we're straying towards clinic territory.

 

[rhubroma]

Re:

In my mind Indurain would have destroyed Contador. Regarding GTs, Indurain did back to back Giro-Tour double in 92 and 93, a thing that he is the only one who has done it. But also he was another two times close to doubles: Vuelta-Tour 91 and Giro-Tour 94. Indurain was just a natural monster, capable of climb with the very best and even better, and time trial like a high speed train. I dont see Contador winning Big Mig.

You have to consider the era, while Big Mig wasn't so big before he met Conconi, as in the first 5 years of his career. He also filled a lacuna during a transition period. This means the mentality of the Giro-Tour double was still valid, while today it is all but impossible. No way does a rider of his caliber win the Giro and Tour in current cycling and no way does a rider of his size hang with AC in the high mountains.

 

[rhubroma]

Re: Re:

In my mind Indurain would have destroyed Contador. Regarding GTs, Indurain did back to back Giro-Tour double in 92 and 93, a thing that he is the only one who has done it. But also he was another two times close to doubles: Vuelta-Tour 91 and Giro-Tour 94. Indurain was just a natural monster, capable of climb with the very best and even better, and time trial like a high speed train. I dont see Contador winning Big Mig.

Of course Indurain would have obliterated Contador. At his best he could even annihilate Pantani.

He was the best in the "unrestricted" era, so Contador would have had no chance. I'll leave it there though, as we're straying towards clinic territory.

He never faced Pantani at his best between 97-99 and there he'd have taken big losses. Perhaps not enough to still have a chance with TTs, but Pantani 94-95, wasn't at his top level yet, was basically new to the scene.

 

[Carols]

Re: Re:

fuente de wasn't an extremely risky move, by then bertie virtually secured podium spot and if rodriguez had caught contador the peloton would have just reunited and all of them would quietly cruised to the finish line. landis' bloodbath and the 2000 tour solo from pantani is what i really call an all-or-nothing long-range attack.

If it wasn't risky why do we see such moves so rarely, in fact Bertie is the only big GC rider that frequently tries such a move.

In the deep, deep freeze here and yesterday I watched T-A 2014. Contador while holding a slim lead went from 32km out, hunted down the break 4+ minutes ahead and won the stage and the race with total Panache by over 2 minutes on Nairito. Who else in the modern day peloton does this kind of thing? Total class with an adventurous spirit; he's the man!

Andy did and in a much bigger race

That was a belated (but spectacular and gutsy) attempt to win from 2nd, but too late. Contador was already in the lead, when just about any other rider would have been content to defend.

Exactly! There was absolutely No Need to attack from 32km, it's just the kind of Panache the man has. Legs feel good, Attack! Legs don't feel so good, Attack!

Andy's ride was one for the ages! But it is comparing apples to oranges.

 

[LaFlorecita]

To be fair Berto wasn't already in the lead when he attacked on stage 5. Granted Kwiat was probably already dead when Nairo first launched his attack but it was not a done deal. I remember we were debating what Kwiat vs Berto vs Nairo on the Muro would result in. Throw in a few wildcards (Peraud was exceptionally quick) and who knows what could've happened.

 

[Escarabajo]

Re:

If you teleport '95 Indurain into today's cycling, he would probably manage triple (Giro-Tour double is definitely certain) as he would be way too strong compared to anyone else. Even '09 Contador is not even close to Indurain in terms of absolute power.

You probably right, but if we teletransport Contador to 1995 he would probably destroy everyone as well.

 

[Carols]

Re:

To be fair Berto wasn't already in the lead when he attacked on stage 5. Granted Kwiat was probably already dead when Nairo first launched his attack but it was not a done deal. I remember we were debating what Kwiat vs Berto vs Nairo on the Muro would result in. Throw in a few wildcards (Peraud was exceptionally quick) and who knows what could've happened.

LOL that is what happens when you get old, the memory goes within 24 hours I would have sworn he was 16 seconds ahead but I just looked it up and he was 16 seconds behind! Okay surely he knew he needed to attack from 32km out to get 17 seconds, he couldn't possibly have done that from closer

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

If you teleport '95 Indurain into today's cycling, he would probably manage triple (Giro-Tour double is definitely certain) as he would be way too strong compared to anyone else. Even '09 Contador is not even close to Indurain in terms of absolute power.

You probably right, but if we teletransport Contador to 1995 he would probably destroy everyone as well.

This

 

[burning]

If he is exactly '09 Bert in 90's, he has absolutely no chance to beat Indurain, but if he is allowed to be full genius, then you can speculate that in clinic but I still think that it won't be close at all.

 

[ray j willings]

I would say Bertie in top form would be way to much for Mig. IMO Only Chicken ,Schleck, Evans, Froome would stay in touching distance with a top form Bertie on a queen stage.
I think a early Armstrong was unbeatable followed by a eyeballs out Pantani from videos I have seen of him.
Before that era I have no idea its a job for the clinic to discuss.

 

[burning]

Seriously, how on earth can Contador beat a guy who killed everyone and their mother by at least 2 minutes including some guy that set the Alpe record 24 hours later. Especially if you consider the Liege assault, crazy fast Guzet Neige ascent, the Mende record and he won both long tt's against bunch of mutants. It is perfectly clear Contador has absoutely zero chance to beat Indurain.

 

[KyoGrey]

As great as Contador is in today's era, we haven't seen him perform repeatedly in the kind of back-to-back-to-back +220 km multi HC mountain stages where the tremendous endurance and bigger fuel tank of Indurain came to scene.

Just take a look at the parcours at the 1992-1994 Giros and 1992-1995 Tours. For instance, the middle section of the 1994 Tour:

Périgueux - Bergerac 64 km (ITT)
Bergerac - Cahors 160,5 km
Cahors - Lourdes-Hautacam 263,5 km
---Rest Day---
Lourdes - Luz-Ardiden 204,5 km
Bagnères-de-Bigorre - Albi 223 km
Castres - Montpellier 202 km
Montpellier - Carpentras 231 km
Valréas - L'Alpe-d'Huez 224,5 km
Bourg-d'Oisans - Val-Thorens 149 km (Queen Stage)
Moûtiers - Cluses 174,5 km
Cluses - Avoriaz 46,5 km (ITT)

In a space of 12 days you had 2 stages of 110 km of hard timetrialing, 5-6 days of bloody carnage, 2-3 days of moderate carnage and 1-2 days to relax your legs.

We now commonly have a succession of only 2-3 important stages for the GC guys (sometimes we get lucky and we get 4 consecutive days, but never over 220 km), but it's not not the same test of endurance, of Gran Fondo (especially in the Tour, the Giro has some good editions in this sense like last years).
So we really don't know how Contador behaves when he is being pushed to the limit AFTER 5-6 PREVIOUS DAYS OF BIG WEAR. When he has to perform in a timetrial up to Avoriaz after 6 mountain stages in the last 7 days like the riders in Indurain's era did.

Of course, it's not Contador's fault that organisers don't thread the same stages nowadays than in the 90's, but based in this difference of parcours we don't have enough information to know how he would perform against Indurain had he been born in 1964.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

The Indurain - Contador discussion cannot include meaningful comparisons without entering into Clinic territory.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

Seriously, how on earth can Contador beat a guy who killed everyone and their mother by at least 2 minutes including some guy that set the Alpe record 24 hours later. Especially if you consider the Liege assault, crazy fast Guzet Neige ascent, the Mende record and he won both long tt's against bunch of mutants. It is perfectly clear Contador has absoutely zero chance to beat Indurain.

Again, you can't compare riders from different eras. Contador in the 1990's might have been an ultra-mythical climber who would have ridden Alpe d'Huez in 36 minutes.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

The Indurain - Contador discussion cannot include meaningful comparisons without entering into Clinic territory.

Basically this.

 

[burning]

Re: Re:

Seriously, how on earth can Contador beat a guy who killed everyone and their mother by at least 2 minutes including some guy that set the Alpe record 24 hours later. Especially if you consider the Liege assault, crazy fast Guzet Neige ascent, the Mende record and he won both long tt's against bunch of mutants. It is perfectly clear Contador has absoutely zero chance to beat Indurain.

Again, you can't compare riders from different eras. Contador in the 1990's might have been an ultra-mythical climber who would have ridden Alpe d'Huez in 36 minutes.

viewtopic.php?p=1852756#p1852756

My post talks about "teleporting Indurain into today's cycling", therefore I did the comparison in that context. About your claim, I have not idea if that would be true, that is pure speculation.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Seriously, how on earth can Contador beat a guy who killed everyone and their mother by at least 2 minutes including some guy that set the Alpe record 24 hours later. Especially if you consider the Liege assault, crazy fast Guzet Neige ascent, the Mende record and he won both long tt's against bunch of mutants. It is perfectly clear Contador has absoutely zero chance to beat Indurain.

Again, you can't compare riders from different eras. Contador in the 1990's might have been an ultra-mythical climber who would have ridden Alpe d'Huez in 36 minutes.

viewtopic.php?p=1852756#p1852756

My post talks about "teleporting Indurain into today's cycling", therefore I did the comparison in that context. About your claim, I have not idea if that would be true, that is pure speculation.

Yes, my post was meant to show that any comparison is pure speculation. That's why I wrote "might".

 

[KyoGrey]

Re:

The Indurain - Contador discussion cannot include meaningful comparisons without entering into Clinic territory.

Why exactly, we can discuss their different natural physical abbilities besides the fact that they both raced (and race) in a doped peloton.

I thought it could be an interesting conversation comparing their talents, but I guess political correctness makes it impossible.

 

[Tonton]

Yes, it's Alberto Contador that we're talking about, so The Clinic's shadow is all over us. BTW, for those of you too young to remember, BigMig was an ET on a bike, something that only Wonderboy can compare with. Why do you think Libertine Seguros picked him first in the Fantasy Doping Draft? Luxembourg ITT anyone? Bertie is not in the same league. He's in the Ulle, Froome category IMO.

But looking forward, as it relates to the upcoming TdF, yes he's in the Froome category. The only one who can beat Dawg. Nairito won't go on an all-out attack mode like a Pantani, Nibali chickens out, end of story. Only Contador (or bad luck, or a nosy custom agent) can beat Froome in July.

I hope they all Beloki out of the race and Pinot wins .

 

[burning]

Yes, it's Alberto Contador that we're talking about, so The Clinic's shadow is all over us. BTW, for those of you too young to remember, BigMig was an ET on a bike, something that only Wonderboy can compare with. Why do you think Libertine Seguros picked him first in the Fantasy Doping Draft? Luxembourg ITT anyone? Bertie is not in the same league. He's in the Ulle, Froome category IMO.

But looking forward, as it relates to the upcoming TdF, yes he's in the Froome category. The only one who can beat Dawg. Nairito won't go on an all-out attack mode like a Pantani, Nibali chickens out, end of story. Only Contador (or bad luck, or a nosy custom agent) can beat Froome in July.

I hope they all Beloki out of the race and Pinot wins .

Are you still mad that I sniped your beloved French?

Here is how I would rank the GT riders considering absolute power:

Indurain


Riis/Ulle/Texan/Contador/Pantani
Berzin/Dawg/Basso/Rominger

 

[IndianCyclist]

In terms of raw power without assistance
Indurain = Cance = Ullrich = Wiggins = Martin ~ 480 w
Contador = Froome ~ 430
in terms of power/weight
Contador = Froome = Quintana = Pantani @ 6.2 w/kg (ref wt 70kg)
Ullrich = Wiggins @ 6.1
Indurain @ 5.9

But there are no 80+ kg GT riders. For a GT 50-72 kg is required @ 6.2 w/kg
Indurain would have won TT by 1-3 mins but IMO Contador would have dropped Indurain like a stone in the mountains by 2-5 mins per stage and won