Teams & Riders Alberto Contador Discussion Thread

[Forever The Best]

Re: Re:

It has absolutely nothing to do with disliking Contador or whatever you are trying to spin it. I just called all those out who actually think that Contador is more likely to win the Tour than Degenkolb is winning one single stage. Its not even close.

Anyways, I don't dislike Contador at all. I just dislike his fans.

Quoted for truth.

I can imagine the conversion now:

Degenkolb: Hi boss, I'm really up for the stage today. My legs feel great, it's a slight uphill finish after a lumpy finale and Sagan had to dig really deep yesterday. Just give me Brandle, Feline and De Kort int he final 5km and I think I can challenge for the win.

Trek DS: No sorry, we need Brandle and Felline to protect Contador.

Degenkolb: What do you mean? Can't one of the other four or five guys do that? And anyway, he can't follow his team-mates wheel.

Trek DS: No sorry, we have to protect him, because he has a 15/1 chance of winning this race.

Degenkolb: Sure, but it's the first week, everyone's fresh and he's already two minutes behind Froome. Just give me Felline, Brandle and De Kort for the last 5km.

Trek DS: No, can't do. Contador needs seven guys to protect him on this gently rolling run in. You're on your own.

Degenkolb: Hi, is that Astana? Are you looking for a new sprinter?

We are looking here at some serious **** talk.

First, even if Sagan had to dig really deep the day before (on the first week, have you had a look at the profiles?) he would beat Degenkolb's *** 9 out of 10 times. And if not Sagan, on a lumpy finale, Van Avermaet or Gilbert would beat Degenkolb easily too. On a flat finish? Greipel, Kittel, even Cav will do better than Degenkolb. Btw, have you seen how Degenkolb is riding recently?

Second, if Contador is 2 minutes behind Froome on the first week, he surely won't bother to be always at the front of the bunch on the flat stages.

And that's it. And I'm not a Contador fan, so I'm not bothered by your attacks at Contador and his fans. What annoyed me was the stupid ideas that were on the post.

Great post! Some people are really blinded by their Contador dislike.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

Dege should go to the Tour but he should only have 1 or 2 people assigned to him. And Contador has more chances of winning the Tour than Dege winning a stage. Mind you, chances of Contador winning the Tour are very low but chances of Dege winning a stage is even lower.
Also I'd prefer Brandle to Zubeldia or Cardoso because Contador needs some rouleurs to keep him safely on the flat stages.

You're right, he needs at least 2 of Irizar, Brändle, Rast plus Gogl and Felline. But with Pantano, Mollema, Degenkolb, De Kort, that leaves no room for a 3rd climber.
Of course, this could easily be solved by leaving Mollema at home, but...

 

[Forever The Best]

Re: Re:

Dege should go to the Tour but he should only have 1 or 2 people assigned to him. And Contador has more chances of winning the Tour than Dege winning a stage. Mind you, chances of Contador winning the Tour are very low but chances of Dege winning a stage is even lower.
Also I'd prefer Brandle to Zubeldia or Cardoso because Contador needs some rouleurs to keep him safely on the flat stages.

You're right, he needs at least 2 of Irizar, Brändle, Rast plus Gogl and Felline. But with Pantano, Mollema, Degenkolb, De Kort, that leaves no room for a 3rd climber.
Of course, this could easily be solved by leaving Mollema at home, but...

Mollema should definitely be in. If Contador is fighting for GC victory Mollema rides as a super dom by setting a very hard tempo/launching Contador or works for Contador on a long-range attack when Conta bridges to him. If Contador is far from the win Mollema should be allowed to go for stage wins.

@sacrifice&hardwork Dege was bad all season as you said. And he was horrible in Suisse. There are many riders who have bigger chances of winning a stage than Dege.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

It has absolutely nothing to do with disliking Contador or whatever you are trying to spin it. I just called all those out who actually think that Contador is more likely to win the Tour than Degenkolb is winning one single stage. Its not even close.

Anyways, I don't dislike Contador at all. I just dislike his fans.

Quoted for truth.

I can imagine the conversion now:

Degenkolb: Hi boss, I'm really up for the stage today. My legs feel great, it's a slight uphill finish after a lumpy finale and Sagan had to dig really deep yesterday. Just give me Brandle, Feline and De Kort int he final 5km and I think I can challenge for the win.

Trek DS: No sorry, we need Brandle and Felline to protect Contador.

Degenkolb: What do you mean? Can't one of the other four or five guys do that? And anyway, he can't follow his team-mates wheel.

Trek DS: No sorry, we have to protect him, because he has a 15/1 chance of winning this race.

Degenkolb: Sure, but it's the first week, everyone's fresh and he's already two minutes behind Froome. Just give me Felline, Brandle and De Kort for the last 5km.

Trek DS: No, can't do. Contador needs seven guys to protect him on this gently rolling run in. You're on your own.

Degenkolb: Hi, is that Astana? Are you looking for a new sprinter?

So in your opinion lightweight climbers should be the ones to protect Contador on the flat stages because Degenkolb needs 3 more guys to boost his chances of winning any particular stage from 0.5 to 1%? You can't seriously think this is reasonable?

I think it's perfectly reasonable. What can Brandle or Felline do to protect Contador anyway? He's hopeless at following his team-mates wheels towards the end of the race - especially guys who are good bike handlers. And doing 5km work for Degenkolb is hardly going to tire them out much - if, against the odds, they end up having to defend yellow in the last week.

We're only talking about the last few kms here. Of course, they're not going to be driving the peloton for 40km to close down a break, but I think Brandle and Felline at least will lend a hand if Degenkolb asks for it.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

It has absolutely nothing to do with disliking Contador or whatever you are trying to spin it. I just called all those out who actually think that Contador is more likely to win the Tour than Degenkolb is winning one single stage. Its not even close.

Anyways, I don't dislike Contador at all. I just dislike his fans.

Quoted for truth.

I can imagine the conversion now:

Degenkolb: Hi boss, I'm really up for the stage today. My legs feel great, it's a slight uphill finish after a lumpy finale and Sagan had to dig really deep yesterday. Just give me Brandle, Feline and De Kort int he final 5km and I think I can challenge for the win.

Trek DS: No sorry, we need Brandle and Felline to protect Contador.

Degenkolb: What do you mean? Can't one of the other four or five guys do that? And anyway, he can't follow his team-mates wheel.

Trek DS: No sorry, we have to protect him, because he has a 15/1 chance of winning this race.

Degenkolb: Sure, but it's the first week, everyone's fresh and he's already two minutes behind Froome. Just give me Felline, Brandle and De Kort for the last 5km.

Trek DS: No, can't do. Contador needs seven guys to protect him on this gently rolling run in. You're on your own.

Degenkolb: Hi, is that Astana? Are you looking for a new sprinter?

Damn. My bad. I keep forgetting Contador has been winning all season long. How naive of Degenkolb to think he has a change to achieve a better result than a climber who has placed second 3 times this season compared to his 8 second places in the WT. How silly of me and all of us, forgive me. :lol:

Once again, you've spectacularly missed the point. It's not a case of choosing between Degenkolb or Contador. Guys like Felline and Brandle will work for both. Contador is number one priority of course, but that doesn't mean they won't lend support to Degenkolb at times.

 

[Valv.Piti]

We can also continiously complain about Dege and if he should receive any support etc, but the fact of the matter is Contador knew that going in when he signed the contract. He knew Degenkolb would be selected and he most likely would get a few guys to support him Nobody forced him to sign with Trek...

And it wasn't exactly Sagan's fault Contador failed in 15 and 16, if anything, it helped him (speaking about 15 here). .

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

It has absolutely nothing to do with disliking Contador or whatever you are trying to spin it. I just called all those out who actually think that Contador is more likely to win the Tour than Degenkolb is winning one single stage. Its not even close.

Anyways, I don't dislike Contador at all. I just dislike his fans.

Quoted for truth.

I can imagine the conversion now:

Degenkolb: Hi boss, I'm really up for the stage today. My legs feel great, it's a slight uphill finish after a lumpy finale and Sagan had to dig really deep yesterday. Just give me Brandle, Feline and De Kort int he final 5km and I think I can challenge for the win.

Trek DS: No sorry, we need Brandle and Felline to protect Contador.

Degenkolb: What do you mean? Can't one of the other four or five guys do that? And anyway, he can't follow his team-mates wheel.

Trek DS: No sorry, we have to protect him, because he has a 15/1 chance of winning this race.

Degenkolb: Sure, but it's the first week, everyone's fresh and he's already two minutes behind Froome. Just give me Felline, Brandle and De Kort for the last 5km.

Trek DS: No, can't do. Contador needs seven guys to protect him on this gently rolling run in. You're on your own.

Degenkolb: Hi, is that Astana? Are you looking for a new sprinter?

We are looking here at some serious **** talk.

First, even if Sagan had to dig really deep the day before (on the first week, have you had a look at the profiles?) he would beat Degenkolb's *** 9 out of 10 times. And if not Sagan, on a lumpy finale, Van Avermaet or Gilbert would beat Degenkolb easily too. On a flat finish? Greipel, Kittel, even Cav will do better than Degenkolb. Btw, have you seen how Degenkolb is riding recently?

Second, if Contador is 2 minutes behind Froome on the first week, he surely won't bother to be always at the front of the bunch on the flat stages.

And that's it. And I'm not a Contador fan, so I'm not bothered by your attacks at Contador and his fans. What annoyed me was the stupid ideas that were on the post.

Terrible post.

The first mistake you make is assuming that teams only care about winning stages and races. They don't - they care a lot about placings an WT points.

Secondly, the weaker Degenkolb is, the more he needs support from his team. I agree he can't beat these guys mano a mano. But with good tactics and utilizing his team well, he has a chance.

Thirdly, it's not just about the results in this race, it's about keeping morale in the team high and keeping riders motivated - epsecially ones who are a serious long term investment for the team.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Mollema should definitely be in. If Contador is fighting for GC victory Mollema rides as a super dom by setting a very hard tempo/launching Contador or works for Contador on a long-range attack when Conta bridges to him. If Contador is far from the win Mollema should be allowed to go for stage wins.

@sacrifice&hardwork Dege was bad all season as you said. And he was horrible in Suisse. There are many riders who have bigger chances of winning a stage than Dege.

I posted this in reply to Gigs earlier

I honestly think that Mollema definitely should be in the team. His big weakness seems to be recovery since he always fades at the end of a gt, but as a domestique he can rest on a few days to be at his best at a few specific mountain stages and in those stages he could be an incredible helper.

Although I hate to say it, because I think he's a certainty for the team, I really don't see it. The guy has never in his career had to work for someone else. I just don't see him as a committed, loyal domestique. Before the Giro I read an interview (don't remember now if it was a newspaper or a magazine) and he didn't really sound happy to be going to the Giro instead of the Tour. Sounded more like he would have preferred the Tour but "that's what you get when you have two big GC men & the team decides in the end".
And I'm not just doubting his commitment, I just don't think he has it in him. I expect some half-hearted pulls à la Catalunya with him secretly hoping Contador fails and he gets freedom to go for a stage.
I desperately hope I'm wrong because as I said, I can't see him not on the team unless he's 'tired' (like Majka in 2014).
.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Thirdly, it's not just about the results in this race, it's about keeping morale in the team high and keeping riders motivated - epsecially ones who are a serious long term investment for the team.

Yeah, seems smart to alienate your GC leader à la Tinkoff. It worked wonders for the morale on that team.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Thirdly, it's not just about the results in this race, it's about keeping morale in the team high and keeping riders motivated - epsecially ones who are a serious long term investment for the team.

Yeah, seems smart to alienate your GC leader à la Tinkoff. It worked wonders for the morale on that team.

To be fair, the only one with low morale on Tinkoff was Contador. Largely because the owner and half the team despised him. They had a superb Tour last year after he crashed out: 3 stage wins, points jersey, mountains jersey and a top 10 on the GC.

Trek would bite your arm off for even half of that this year.

 

[Valv.Piti]

How in the world is selecting Degenkolb (which Contador knew was on the team when he signed) alienating him?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

I think it's perfectly reasonable. What can Brandle or Felline do to protect Contador anyway?

Errr.. haven't you seen what Bennati and Tosatto have done for Contador in the past? Felline, Brändle, Gogl may not be as good, but they can do that job a helluva lot better than Pantano and Cardoso.

He's hopeless at following his team-mates wheels towards the end of the race - especially guys who are good bike handlers.

So that's enough of a reason to give up on protecting him altogether? Ya know, because 50% odds of him crashing isn't better than 100%?

And doing 5km work for Degenkolb is hardly going to tire them out much - if, against the odds, they end up having to defend yellow in the last week.

This isn't about tiring them out for defending yellow for goodness sake. If the best they can do to protect Contador on the flat stages is assigning riders like Pantano to him, there isn't even a 0.001% chance they'll be defending yellow.
He needs to be in the race to take yellow, right?

 

[Katabatic]

Re: Re:

Secondly, the weaker Degenkolb is, the more he needs support from his team.

Wouldn't this apply to every rider in the peloton?

So if, as you assert, Contador is a relatively weak rider (out of the GC contenders), wouldn't that also imply he needs more support from his team?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

How in the world is selecting Degenkolb (which Contador knew was on the team when he signed) alienating him?

Leaving him to fend for himself on the flat stages is guaranteed to alienate him. And it won't happen, but apparently DFA would love to see it.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

We can also continiously complain about Dege and if he should receive any support etc, but the fact of the matter is Contador knew that going in when he signed the contract. He knew Degenkolb would be selected and he most likely would get a few guys to support him Nobody forced him to sign with Trek...

And it wasn't exactly Sagan's fault Contador failed in 15 and 16, if anything, it helped him (speaking about 15 here). .

You seriously believe Contador didn't negotiate about the support he'd get for the Tour?

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

We can also continiously complain about Dege and if he should receive any support etc, but the fact of the matter is Contador knew that going in when he signed the contract. He knew Degenkolb would be selected and he most likely would get a few guys to support him Nobody forced him to sign with Trek...

And it wasn't exactly Sagan's fault Contador failed in 15 and 16, if anything, it helped him (speaking about 15 here). .

You seriously believe Contador didn't negotiate about the support he'd get for the Tour?

I don't understand, I thought you meant simply selecting Degenkolb and giving him a few riders would be to alianate him?

 

[DFA123]

Re:

How in the world is selecting Degenkolb (which Contador knew was on the team when he signed) alienating him?

It's laughable isn't it? So much myopia when it comes to Contador.

Ultimately Trek have a second tier GC contender and a second tier sprinter. So, naturally, they'll hedge their bets and split the resources between them. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Pantano ends up as the only Trek rider to get something out of this Tour though, soloing clear from a stylish third week breakaway.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

I don't understand, I thought you meant simply selecting Degenkolb and giving him a few riders would be to alianate him?

You've not been paying attention then. DFA suggested that Trek's rouleurs should work for Degenkolb on the flat stages, leaving the climbers as flat support for Contador because he can't keep a wheel anyway. I said that would be a surefire way to alienate him.

 

[Forever The Best]

Mollema should definitely be in. If Contador is fighting for GC victory Mollema rides as a super dom by setting a very hard tempo/launching Contador or works for Contador on a long-range attack when Conta bridges to him. If Contador is far from the win Mollema should be allowed to go for stage wins.

@sacrifice&hardwork Dege was bad all season as you said. And he was horrible in Suisse. There are many riders who have bigger chances of winning a stage than Dege.

I posted this in reply to Gigs earlier

I honestly think that Mollema definitely should be in the team. His big weakness seems to be recovery since he always fades at the end of a gt, but as a domestique he can rest on a few days to be at his best at a few specific mountain stages and in those stages he could be an incredible helper.

Although I hate to say it, because I think he's a certainty for the team, I really don't see it. The guy has never in his career had to work for someone else. I just don't see him as a committed, loyal domestique. Before the Giro I read an interview (don't remember now if it was a newspaper or a magazine) and he didn't really sound happy to be going to the Giro instead of the Tour. Sounded more like he would have preferred the Tour but "that's what you get when you have two big GC men & the team decides in the end".
And I'm not just doubting his commitment, I just don't think he has it in him. I expect some half-hearted pulls à la Catalunya with him secretly hoping Contador fails and he gets freedom to go for a stage.
I desperately hope I'm wrong because as I said, I can't see him not on the team unless he's 'tired' (like Majka in 2014).
.

Mollema doesn't look like a loyal domestique indeed which is a problem. But if Contador is near the win I think he will be give decent help, maybe awesome help if there is a good synergy between them.

 

[Ricco']

Re: Re:

It has absolutely nothing to do with disliking Contador or whatever you are trying to spin it. I just called all those out who actually think that Contador is more likely to win the Tour than Degenkolb is winning one single stage. Its not even close.

Anyways, I don't dislike Contador at all. I just dislike his fans.

Quoted for truth.

I can imagine the conversion now:

Degenkolb: Hi boss, I'm really up for the stage today. My legs feel great, it's a slight uphill finish after a lumpy finale and Sagan had to dig really deep yesterday. Just give me Brandle, Feline and De Kort int he final 5km and I think I can challenge for the win.

Trek DS: No sorry, we need Brandle and Felline to protect Contador.

Degenkolb: What do you mean? Can't one of the other four or five guys do that? And anyway, he can't follow his team-mates wheel.

Trek DS: No sorry, we have to protect him, because he has a 15/1 chance of winning this race.

Degenkolb: Sure, but it's the first week, everyone's fresh and he's already two minutes behind Froome. Just give me Felline, Brandle and De Kort for the last 5km.

Trek DS: No, can't do. Contador needs seven guys to protect him on this gently rolling run in. You're on your own.

Degenkolb: Hi, is that Astana? Are you looking for a new sprinter?

We are looking here at some serious **** talk.

First, even if Sagan had to dig really deep the day before (on the first week, have you had a look at the profiles?) he would beat Degenkolb's *** 9 out of 10 times. And if not Sagan, on a lumpy finale, Van Avermaet or Gilbert would beat Degenkolb easily too. On a flat finish? Greipel, Kittel, even Cav will do better than Degenkolb. Btw, have you seen how Degenkolb is riding recently?

Second, if Contador is 2 minutes behind Froome on the first week, he surely won't bother to be always at the front of the bunch on the flat stages.

And that's it. And I'm not a Contador fan, so I'm not bothered by your attacks at Contador and his fans. What annoyed me was the stupid ideas that were on the post.

Terrible post.

The first mistake you make is assuming that teams only care about winning stages and races. They don't - they care a lot about placings an WT points.

Secondly, the weaker Degenkolb is, the more he needs support from his team. I agree he can't beat these guys mano a mano. But with good tactics and utilizing his team well, he has a chance.

Thirdly, it's not just about the results in this race, it's about keeping morale in the team high and keeping riders motivated - epsecially ones who are a serious long term investment for the team.

First - Well, Trek doesn't come to this Tour with the mindset of Emirates, Bahrain or Cannondale. Since last year, Trek and Contador said that they were coming here to fight for the win, and all has been said so far is that the preparation is going according to plan (will it work? Will see in a month). So, between fighting for the Tour win and fighting for a top-5 in a stage, I'm pretty sure what is going to be Trek priority.

Second - What good tactics? Degenkolb's problems are lack of pure speed in the flat and being weaker than the puncheurs in the hilly finishes. Degenkolb won't attack from far out, if he has 2 or 3 guys committed to him, he has 2 options. One: he uses them to build a sprint train. Result? Trek is not used to have a sprint train and they will get swallowed up by Quick Step and Dimension Data. Two: He uses them to get a good wheel. Result? Lack of pure speed prevent him from winning.

Third - That goes both ways.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

I don't understand, I thought you meant simply selecting Degenkolb and giving him a few riders would be to alianate him?

You've not been paying attention then. DFA suggested that Trek's rouleurs should work for Degenkolb on the flat stages, leaving the climbers as flat support for Contador because he can't keep a wheel anyway. I said that would be a surefire way to alienate him.

We're talking about the last five km here. If Contador needs the help so much, then he can surely just sit on the back of Degenkolb's train. But he can't follow wheels, so it would be useless. Someone like Pantano is probably the best rider to protect him anyway. A guy who is fast, handles well and knows his way around a sprint. But doesn't have the kind of acceleration which will just drop Contador.

Anyway, I somehow doubt that Contador is as prickly and such a prima donna as many of his fans make out. He'll be fine with Degenkolb getting a few guys on a couple of stages which suit him. If he got 'alienated' by something as trivial as that, he wouldn't have last over a decade in the pro peloton.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Terrible post.

The first mistake you make is assuming that teams only care about winning stages and races. They don't - they care a lot about placings an WT points.

Secondly, the weaker Degenkolb is, the more he needs support from his team. I agree he can't beat these guys mano a mano. But with good tactics and utilizing his team well, he has a chance.

Thirdly, it's not just about the results in this race, it's about keeping morale in the team high and keeping riders motivated - epsecially ones who are a serious long term investment for the team.

First - Well, Trek doesn't come to this Tour with the mindset of Emirates, Bahrain or Cannondale. Since last year, Trek and Contador said that they were coming here to fight for the win, and all has been said so far is that the preparation is going according to plan (will it work? Will see in a month). So, between fighting for the Tour win and fighting for a top-5 in a stage, I'm pretty sure what is going to be Trek priority.

Second - What good tactics? Degenkolb's problems are lack of pure speed in the flat and being weaker than the puncheurs in the hilly finishes. Degenkolb won't attack from far out, if he has 2 or 3 guys committed to him, he has 2 options. One: he uses them to build a sprint train. Result? Trek is not used to have a sprint train and they will get swallowed up by Quick Step and Dimension Data. Two: He uses them to get a good wheel. Result? Lack of pure speed prevent him from winning.

Third - That goes both ways.

Once again. No one is denying that Contador will be Trek's priority. But that doesn't mean they are going to completely abandon Degenkolb on stages which suit him. Of course fighting for a tour win is by far the most important thing, but fighting for stage wins or even top 5s are important as well. And the two aims aren't really mutually exclusive. We've seen plenty of teams before split resources well between a sprinter and a GC rider.

And, if we're being honest, Contador is kind of a long shot to win. You clearly don't put all your eggs in the basket of a guy who hasn't come anywhere near winning the tour for seven years now.

 

[bob.a.feet]

Re: Re:

Thirdly, it's not just about the results in this race, it's about keeping morale in the team high and keeping riders motivated - epsecially ones who are a serious long term investment for the team.

Yeah, seems smart to alienate your GC leader à la Tinkoff. It worked wonders for the morale on that team.

To be fair, the only one with low morale on Tinkoff was Contador. Largely because the owner and half the team despised him. They had a superb Tour last year after he crashed out: 3 stage wins, points jersey, mountains jersey and a top 10 on the GC.

Trek would bite your arm off for even half of that this year.

Trek could easily get half that if they wanted to do.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Thirdly, it's not just about the results in this race, it's about keeping morale in the team high and keeping riders motivated - epsecially ones who are a serious long term investment for the team.

Yeah, seems smart to alienate your GC leader à la Tinkoff. It worked wonders for the morale on that team.

To be fair, the only one with low morale on Tinkoff was Contador. Largely because the owner and half the team despised him. They had a superb Tour last year after he crashed out: 3 stage wins, points jersey, mountains jersey and a top 10 on the GC.

Trek would bite your arm off for even half of that this year.

Trek could easily get half that if they wanted to do.

No they couldn't. Not easily. A couple of stage wins, and a jersey of some kind would be a very, very good race for them. The Tour de France is really, really hard to get anything from. Especially for a team who has just one WT stage win all season.

 

[bob.a.feet]

Re: Re:

Thirdly, it's not just about the results in this race, it's about keeping morale in the team high and keeping riders motivated - epsecially ones who are a serious long term investment for the team.

Yeah, seems smart to alienate your GC leader à la Tinkoff. It worked wonders for the morale on that team.

To be fair, the only one with low morale on Tinkoff was Contador. Largely because the owner and half the team despised him. They had a superb Tour last year after he crashed out: 3 stage wins, points jersey, mountains jersey and a top 10 on the GC.

Trek would bite your arm off for even half of that this year.

Trek could easily get half that if they wanted to do.

No they couldn't. Not easily. A couple of stage wins, and a jersey of some kind would be a very, very good race for them. The Tour de France is really, really hard to get anything from. Especially for a team who has just one WT stage win all season.

They could get the KOM with Pantano, top 10 with Contador, and maybe 1 stage aswell