Teams & Riders Alberto Contador Discussion Thread

[Publicus]

However it was partially simplified with the fact that Contador had a fight against parcours rather than riders on the road. Very tight contention on an easier parcours demands more effort than riding on tough course with huge advantage. What do you think on that?

Tougher resistance on easier cource may require a bigger effort? Or you don't see options for tougher resistance?

I think it is what you make of it. Every GT is about the difficulty of the course and the talent of the riders who line up. It's not always a tough course and best riders. Wiggins is being celebrated by many as a GT rider on par with Contador because he won on what I consider a weak TDF course, against what I consider a weak field. I don't begrudge them that. I just disagree with their assessment of Wiggins' talent (I'm not dismissing him as a threat. I want to see him perform on a more challenging course, against more talented riders).

So I do grasp your point. My point about the 2011 course was the physical toll it took on him in the run into the 2011 Tour. His team was battered from the Giro and then he suffered crash after crash which put him into a rather deep hole. Given the talent on Saxo Bank now, they should be able to field two GT squads to provide him with a fresh team for both GTs if he so chooses to ride. I don't think Wiggins gives him any more of a test on that parcours than Nibbles et al did in 2011, save the one long TT. The question, in my mind, assuming he wins the Giro, will he have enough time to recover for the Tour. Given the last week of the Giro and the first week of the Tour (I believe there are a couple of mountain stages (I could be wrong)), I have my doubts.

 

[airstream]

Oh man, poor Froome will inevitably carry additional pressure whereas [apparently] Contador will go the Tour lightly without pressure.

Hilarious guys...

 

[Publicus]

Speaking of the double - yes, it's big ask. It will be very demanding to race against 100% Wiggo. But when we speak about the Tour, I think there won't be a rider prepared like Wiggins. It's not rational to expect from Andy to turn to his best form already this year, and I don't rate Froome so high despite his remarkable showings in previous two seasons. I've already written about his lack of racing sense, and designating him for the team's Tour leader will carry additional pressure, especially if things don't develop according to Sky's expectations in the Giro.
The point is - Contador can win the Tour with worse form than that in the Giro this year. And that's why I think this season is good for the double.

I noticed this during the Vuelta last year. I think he needs much more experience leading a squad to understand how to handle the pressure.

EDIT: ^^^^to airstream: I don't think that's what serfla was saying at all. I think what he means is that Froome hasn't demonstrated that he can handle the pressure of being team leader and certain not the amount of pressure that goes with being a team leader at the Tour.

 

[LaFlorecita]

In my view, some Contador fans has one phobia: they think the strength of the field is defined by Contador's presence exceptionally.

That's a phobia? More a fallacy methinks.

Wiggins beat other guys probably with a bigger or the same edge in comparison how Contador did it in 2009.

He got the major part of his time in the tts whereas Alberto also won it by attacking. Wiggo was just the better tter. Alberto was the better tter AND climber.

And you dare say that he is not a factor just because Contador and Schleck were not there? In what year are you living?

Who the **** is saying that? You're living in your own fantasy world where everyone is against Sky/Froome/Wiggins. YOUR FANTASY WORLD IS NOT REALITY.

Everything evolves around Contador.
He's absolute point of reference for every categorical judgement. Even more, his presence determines existence of every important cycling quality in certain race, and often existence of a race itself.

WOW have you been studying airstream-ish or what? Your posts seem eerily familiar.

 

[Carols]

Although rhetorically lined, I'll say it depends how much the suspension took out of him.
If Vuelta is reliable indicator, then he can't.
But he works with good manager. That's exceptionally important.
I think Riis can match Sky's logistics. And that's important for this season.

IMO the he needed the Vuelta in his legs to get back to his top form. It obviously wore him out, but I'm sure he moved forward long term off it.

Alberto will face Wiggins a couple of times before the Giro. If he finds it fairly easy to win against him he should try the Giro. Otherwise he should focus on le Tour.

But that is just MO. He isn't getting any younger so if he wants the double he'll have to try it in the next couple of years.

Hummm nice to have a conversation without the baiting/hyperbole

 

[LaFlorecita]

For me, Contador alongside with Luis Leon Sanchez maybe were always the smartest riders in terms of ability to estimate themselves objectively. And I'm just wondering whether Contador really thinks that there is abysm between him and others and the double is a real thing or it is just a tricky game to try to push the opponents. This year's double will be harder than in 2011.

Neither Alberto nor his fans think that way. YOU are the one who came up with this ridiculous thing and I'm gonna quote Hitch now you are twisting our words and putting them back into our mouths. Stop accusing us of things none of us have ever said. I won't tolerate it any longer.

 

[serfla]

EDIT: ^^^^to airstream: I don't think that's what serfla was saying at all. I think what he means is that Froome hasn't demonstrated that he can handle the pressure of being team leader and certain not the amount of pressure that goes with being a team leader at the Tour.

And pressure of must win the race, if Wiggins fails to deliver at the Giro.
It would be must win situation at the Tour for Sky if Wiggo disappoints in Italy.

 

[rhubroma]

If any racer of this generation has the capacity to do the Giro-Tour double, then it's got to be AC (doping notwithstanding).

He needs to have this feat in his palmarès to reinforce the status of being an all-time great. Nobody expected to witness the extra-terrestrial Wiggins (I don't care what anybody says - from Paris Nice through the Tour he was unbeatable) we had last year, and I think the Briton probably wants to assume the role of Re from the Spaniard. Personally a time trial man, no matter how strong and impressive, shouldn't be put on the same plane as one who can explode a race in uneven terrain, tearing the field to shreds and leaving everybody in the dust. For this reason Wiggins, more than Contador, needs a most favorable course to achieve success.

On that account, Alberto will undoubtedly be wanting to put Wiggins in his place. There would be no better way to do this than by beating him at the Giro and the Tour successively. If it were possible for Indurain and Pantani in the modern era, then it must be possible for an athlete today. The experts keep doubting this, however, it isn’t as if in the 90’s things were all that different.

 

[Carols]

Neither Alberto nor his fans think that way. YOU are the one who came up with this ridiculous thing and I'm gonna quote Hitch now you are twisting our words and putting them back into our mouths. Stop accusing us of things none of us have ever said. I won't tolerate it any longer.

I don't know why you bother to respond to him; he just goes for effect and it is impossible to have a rational conversation with him....Ignore works to some extent but folks keep quoting him LOL!

 

[Carols]

If any racer of this generation has the capacity to do the Giro-Tour double, then it's got to be AC.

Yes, can't thing of anyone else that could pull it off right now.

Nobody expected to witness the extra-terrestrial Wiggins (I don't care what anybody says - from Paris Nice through the Tour he was unbeatable) we had last year, and I think the Briton probably wants to assume the role of Re from the Spaniard.

Indeed, who could have foreseen that???? Wiggo has a Long way to go to assume the role though.

Personally a time trial man, no matter how strong and impressive, shouldn't be put on the same plane as one who can explode a race in uneven terrain, tearing the field to shreds and leaving everybody in the dust. For this reason Wiggins, more than Contador, needs a most favorable course to achieve success.

Totally Agree!!!!

On that account, Alberto will undoubtedly be wanting to put Wiggins in his place. There would be no better way to do this than by beating him at the Giro and the Tour successively.

He can put Wiggo in his place before the Giro in T/A.

If it were possible for Indurain and Pantani in the modern era, then it must be possible for an athlete today. The experts keep doubting this, however, it isn’t as if in the 90’s things were all that different.

They had advantages not possible today in the current climate.

 

[Froome19]

I don't think Wiggins gives him any more of a test on that parcours than Nibbles et al did in 2011, save the one long TT. The question, in my mind, assuming he wins the Giro, will he have enough time to recover for the Tour. Given the last week of the Giro and the first week of the Tour (I believe there are a couple of mountain stages (I could be wrong)), I have my doubts.

Wiggins out rode Nibali this year in the Tour. Wiggins also will have a far superior team than Nibali and this was certainly a better version of Nibali than the 2011 Giro Nibali, who was beaten by Scarponi. So I would be very surprised if Wiggins puts up as little resistance as Nibali did in 2011 (or even for that matter Scarponi).

 

[Froome19]

Speaking of the double - yes, it's big ask. It will be very demanding to race against 100% Wiggo. But when we speak about the Tour, I think there won't be a rider prepared like Wiggins. It's not rational to expect from Andy to turn to his best form already this year, and I don't rate Froome so high despite his remarkable showings in previous two seasons. I've already written about his lack of racing sense, and designating him for the team's Tour leader will carry additional pressure, especially if things don't develop according to Sky's expectations in the Giro.
The point is - Contador can win the Tour with worse form than that in the Giro this year. And that's why I think this season is good for the double.

Sorry, but you say it will be very demanding to race against Wiggo?
And then you say you do not rate Froome. Froome was miles ahead of Wiggo in this year's Tour.

In terms of his designated leader role. He managed well enough in the Vuelta where he seemed fine in his role and seemed to be excelling until his fatigue kicked in and has now had valuable experience in that role. By the time that the Tour comes around he would have had even more experience.

 

[Publicus]

Wiggins out rode Nibali this year in the Tour. Wiggins also will have a far superior team than Nibali and this was certainly a better version of Nibali than the 2011 Giro Nibali, who was beaten by Scarponi. So I would be very surprised if Wiggins puts up as little resistance as Nibali did in 2011 (or even for that matter Scarponi).

He out rode Nibbles on a relatively light course. I don't see Wiggins doing better than Nibbles in the high mountains at the Giro. That's just my opinion. Wiggins could be the second coming of Indurain. We'll see this year....

 

[Froome19]

He out rode Nibbles on a relatively light course. I don't see Wiggins doing better than Nibbles in the high mountains at the Giro. That's just my opinion. Wiggins could be the second coming of Indurain. We'll see this year....

Fair enough. What I saw was Wiggins out riding Nibali on close to every mountain stage(the limited ones there were) in the Tour, so I would say it is more logical to assume Wiggins can climb better than Nibali.

 

[cineteq]

What I saw was Wiggins out riding Nibali on close to every mountain stage(the limited ones there were) in the Tour, so I would say it is more logical to assume Wiggins can climb better than Nibali.

Blasphemous. You're picking on the wrong crowd here, not good. On top of that, in the wrong thread.

 

[airstream]

I think it is what you make of it. Every GT is about the difficulty of the course and the talent of the riders who line up. It's not always a tough course and best riders.

Significant part of fans position the 2011 Giro like sort of an absolute. The best guys were not there. All the more so most people would agree Nibali was not prepared very well even by his then-standarts, but... who cares if it is so fascinating, right?

Wiggins is being celebrated by many as a GT rider on par with Contador because

Parcours is a decoration of the race, its framework. A rider is beaten by other riders, not by parcours. Considering what we saw, there is minimum evidence to suppose those guys would have beaten Wiggins on a harder course (theoretically probable TdF course surely because they are never so difficult how the Giro course).

he won on what I consider a weak TDF course, against what I consider a weak field. I don't begrudge them that.

He won with huge advantage. He did not grind out this. He rode the race, reveling his superiority. Doesn't it affect on your estimation of what was happening?

I just disagree with their assessment of Wiggins' talent (I'm not dismissing him as a threat. I want to see him perform on a more challenging course, against more talented riders).

I agree, though talent is not always equal to the result.

I don't think Wiggins gives him any more of a test on that parcours than Nibbles et al did in 2011

Wow, just wow. Why do you think so if Nibali had no terrain to gain any time, when Wiggins has a 55k TT, where he would definetely win not a few seconds and a mountain TT where I'd also bet on him 60 vs 40? What makes you think that Nibali is a better climber in general?

Given the last week of the Giro and the first week of the Tour (I believe there are a couple of mountain stages (I could be wrong)), I have my doubts.

No matter how the giro will end, it would be a big leg-up for Schleck and Froome

Froome hasn't demonstrated that he can handle the pressure of being team leader and certain not the amount of pressure that goes with being a team leader at the Tour.

Sure. He just didn't have possibility so far. He will demontrate this as ill luck would have it, don't worry.

 

[Angliru]

Oh man, poor Froome will inevitably carry additional pressure whereas [apparently] Contador will go the Tour lightly without pressure.

Hilarious guys...

You conveniently ignore the experience factor. You have one rider that has been leading grand tour teams since almost 2007 and you have another who has exactly one full grand tour where he was the undisputed leader and never at either the Tour or the Giro. I think that gives one rider a decided advantage in the ability to deal with whatever circumstances/scenarios are thrown their way.

 

[airstream]

You conveniently ignore the experience factor. You have one rider that has been leading grand tour teams since almost 2007 and you have another who has exactly one full grand tour where he was the undisputed leader and never at either the Tour or the Giro. I think that gives one rider a decided advantage in the ability to deal with whatever circumstances/scenarios are thrown their way.

You absolutize the experience factor as though it is manna. Everyone should win his first GT without winning experience or there are other ways out?

Though, dear Angliru, if you have to seriously rely on his experience, I sympathize with you. )

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Wiggins out rode Nibali this year in the Tour. Wiggins also will have a far superior team than Nibali and this was certainly a better version of Nibali than the 2011 Giro Nibali, who was beaten by Scarponi. So I would be very surprised if Wiggins puts up as little resistance as Nibali did in 2011 (or even for that matter Scarponi).

in the timetrials yes, everywhere else no. besides nibali won;t be wiggins problem in the giro. there are far better climbers there

 

[Angliru]

Sorry, but you say it will be very demanding to race against Wiggo?

And then you say you do not rate Froome. Froome was miles ahead of Wiggo in this year's Tour.

In terms of his designated leader role. He managed well enough in the Vuelta where he seemed fine in his role and seemed to be excelling until his fatigue kicked in and has now had valuable experience in that role. By the time that the Tour comes around he would have had even more experience.

Isn't that (the bolded sentence above) a bit of an exaggeration? Stronger in the mountains yes but not by miles from what we could see. Definitely not stronger against the clock.

 

[airstream]

That's a phobia? More a fallacy methinks.

By phobia I imply the ideological platform using which you evaluate riders who is a real threat.

He got the major part of his time in the tts whereas Alberto also won it by attacking. Wiggo was just the better tter. Alberto was the better tter AND climber.

Diversity? True. But Wiggins gained in TTs so much that Contador can not even dream to gain on the climbs.

Who the **** is saying that? You're living in your own fantasy world where everyone is against Sky/Froome/Wiggins. YOUR FANTASY WORLD IS NOT REALITY.

Don't spray your nerve cells. It is just a cycling discussion.

WOW have you been studying airstream-ish or what? Your posts seem eerily familiar.

Living in my country you would know nothing. Ridiculing my English, you cry shame upon yourself actually.

 

[Angliru]

You absolutize the experience factor as though it is manna. Everyone should win his first GT without winning experience or there are other ways out?

Though, dear Angliru, if you have to seriously rely on his experience, I sympathize with you. )

No, I stated that you ignored it's importance and then I laid out the vast difference between the 2 riders. YOU, as usual, over dramatized my post and spin it as if it is the only factor at play. Why are you always itching for a fight?

 

[airstream]

No, I stated that you ignored it's importance and then I laid out the vast difference between the 2 riders. YOU, as usual, over dramatized my post and spin it as if it is the only factor at play. Why are you always itching for a fight?

No, I'm all for peaceful exchange of opinions but I don't like when some spoilt children rage.


As for discussion, I agree experience can give 1-2% to shake a total parity but it is not fundamental. Experience can't salvage one if he is prepared significantly worse.

 

[rhubroma]

...They had advantages not possible today in the current climate.

I'm not so sure those advantages aren't still in place. Especially in light of the most current situation, it has become increasingly difficult to safely handle risk management for sure, though not for this should we conclude that we have arrived at epochal change. Nor has the inertia of new release state of the art products seem to have diminished over recent years.

Be that as it may, in any case even if those advantages have been attenuated then one would assume that the situation has reverted back to an older balance of powers, for which there are examples like Hinault and Roche to provide optimism that the Giro-Tour double is possible in today's cycling.

The most likely candidate to achieve this, unless having courses with multiple 50k+ time trials and effectively castrated mountain stages like we got In last year’s Tour, is Alberto as we both agree.

 

[airstream]

If any racer of this generation has the capacity to do the Giro-Tour double, then it's got to be AC (doping notwithstanding).

Sadly, one handles this aspect for 2 different riders very differently.

Nobody expected to witness the extra-terrestrial Wiggins (I don't care what anybody says - from Paris Nice through the Tour he was unbeatable) we had last year

Nobody of those who don't want to see him extra-terrestrial. Logically, I think the likelihood that Contador will reproduce his the 2009 form and the likelihood that Wiggins will reproduce his the 2012 Tour one are equal.

And yet I think your vision of 'Wiggins' place' and real place are really different.