the sceptic said:Then be a man and go to the clinic or shut up.
Be a man, really?
You can start showing me some calculations if you want to join in the discussion.
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the sceptic said:Then be a man and go to the clinic or shut up.
No_Balls said:You asked for evidence and (while not giving the whole picture) the presented arguments are very valid in regarding the climbing greats. I'm sorry to drop the bomb but the history of cycling does not circle around your bias.
Walkman said:Please elaborate?
The arguments presented are just a diagram. How can I know it's even valid? Because you say so? And how can I know the mathematics behind those numbers are correct? And the assumptions made about the riders weight? Wind speeds?
Those are legit questions to ask.
sir fly said:Keep wondering.
In this decade he started 5 GTs and won 2 (officially 1).
The 2012 Vuelta he's won because of his tactical sense, and not because of his dominant climbing ability, which is the topic of current discussion.
His 2011 Giro victory* hasn't been achieved against the best riders at the moment.
So, during this decade he hasn't shown he can beat the best of the best.
We could talk about his 2010 season as well, but I'm sure you'll exclude from the calculation everything you dislike.
sir fly said:Keep wondering.
In this decade he started 5 GTs and won 2 (officially 1).
The 2012 Vuelta he's won because of his tactical sense, and not because of his dominant climbing ability, which is the topic of current discussion.
His 2011 Giro victory* hasn't been achieved against the best riders at the moment.
So, during this decade he hasn't shown he can beat the best of the best.
We could talk about his 2010 season as well, but I'm sure you'll exclude from the calculation everything you dislike.
Well, being able to stay on the bike is fundamental presumption of the sport. Abandonment is just as valid result as any.BlurryVII said:Yeah, just as you count the Tour 2014 into your calculations when he couldn't even finish it, and when he was clearly the strongest. And why don't you talk about his results prior to 2010?
You've heard this from Tinkov, haven't you?BlurryVII said:You also have to consider his form, at the Vuelta 2012, he came back from 6 months without racing and he still was very strong.
He did beat the best of the best this season, he crushed Quintana at TA, he beat Froome twice, at Catalunia and Dauphiné. I don't even mention Nibali since he isn't at the same lvl at all.
Relax, kid.BlurryVII said:I repeat my question, barring Lance, who is the last rider to win at least a GT per season over 6 years? Most of the time, in an impressive fashion.
Walkman said:Please elaborate
Walkman said:The arguments presented are just a diagram. How can I know it's even valid? Because you say so? And how can I know the mathematics behind those numbers are correct? And the assumptions made about the riders weight? Wind speeds?
Those are legit questions to ask.
The facts are funny, I agree.LaFlorecita said:Lol
Okay then
sir fly said:Well, being able to stay on the bike is fundamental presumption of the sport. Abandonment is just as valid result as any.
Clearly the strongest?! We'll never know. I thought you've accepted that by now.
I'm talking about this decade. It's clearly emphasized in the initial post.
You've heard this from Tinkov, haven't you?
Relax, kid.
You're not here to make the questions.
And Contador isn't the answer.
BlurryVII said:Are you dumb? The initial point made by Hitch was that Contador is one of the best climber ever if not the best, if you're willing to discuss this point, you have to consider all his career, but you just came out of nowhere and decided to talk about this decade? Why only this decade? We will never know.
Yep, we will never know about the Tour 2014, that's why there's no point saying he won 2 GT's out of 5. He crashed, so we will never know And it is irrelevant to count it .
Nope, just a fact. AC didn't crush Quintana at TA? Didn't he beat Froome twice? What has tinkov to do with all of this?
Well, he is the last one to have won a GT per season over 6 years in a row since Eddy Merckx
Don't be rude. It doesn't strengthen your position or the reputation here. It just makes you look immature and helpless.BlurryVII said:Are you dumb? The initial point made by Hitch was that Contador is one of the best climber ever if not the best, if you're willing to discuss this point, you have to consider all his career, but you just came out of nowhere and decided to talk about this decade? Why only this decade? We will never know.
We'll never know if he was able to win the Tour, but we know that he's started it and hasn't won it. It's a fact.BlurryVII said:Yep, we will never know about the Tour 2014, that's why there's no point saying he won 2 GT's out of 5. He crashed, so we will never know And it is irrelevant to count it .
Different level from Nibali?!BlurryVII said:Nope, just a fact. AC didn't crush Quintana at TA? Didn't he beat Froome twice? What has tinkov to do with all of this?
O.K.BlurryVII said:Well, he is the last one to have won a GT per season over 6 years in a row since Eddy Merckx
sir fly said:Don't be rude. It doesn't strengthen your position or the reputation here. It just makes you look immature and helpless.
I have a right to enlighten a discussion from a different angle. If you didn't like it - you shouldn't involve yourself in the discussion.
Different level from Nibali?!
O.K., what's inaccurate in my post?BlurryVII said:You got a point! I shouldn't have replied to your comment, but it was so full of crap that I had to
My reputation wasn't even mentioned.BlurryVII said:Sorry, I didn't know your life was all about your reputation on CN forums? I couldn't give a **** about my reputation over here
You can get me banned, I couldn't care less tbh. I'm just here to debate fairly.
If you're willing to believe without a proof, then the credibility isn't a topic at all.BlurryVII said:Ah, just don't get me started on this
If you believe Nibs is on par with AC, then you lose all credibility
sir fly said:O.K., what's inaccurate in my post?
Try to reply with the facts, and not with the beliefs.
My reputation wasn't even mentioned.
Your manners were the subject.
If you're willing to believe without a proof, then the credibility isn't a topic at all.
Exactly what I've expected.BlurryVII said:The simple fact of mentioning reputation means that it is important to you, which truly makes me laugh.
Not gonna keep this conversation going any further. Proofs are all over the place to conclude that Nibs isn't on par with AC at all.
I'm too lazy to make a full comment on this, it'll get redundant. If you don't see it, then sorry for your blindness.
BlurryVII said:The simple fact of mentioning reputation means that it is important to you, which truly makes me laugh.
Not gonna keep this conversation going any further. Proofs are all over the place (palmarès, numbers, TT and climbing abilities, face to face) to conclude that Nibs isn't on par with AC at all.
I'm too lazy to make a full comment on this, it'll get redundant. If you don't see it, then sorry for your blindness.
BlurryVII said:Alright, there we go. Froome'average power strongly decreased by the 3rd week. Considering Ventoux and especially Ax 3, he is a class above Nibali.
Nibali's recovery would have been worse under incessant attacks from tougher competition, which was not the case, it was a walk in the park, he didn't have to deal with top shape Quintana or Purito.
Also Nibali's average power is higher thanks to Planche des belle filles, short climb = short effort = Better power output . Last year there wasn't such short MTF.
So it is just a false assumption to say that he is on par with Froome 2013.
Now when I say he isn't at the same lvl of Contador, he hasn't beaten him once in a MTF in his career, and AC is a better TT'er. And look at their palmarès, do you need something else?
Vino attacks everyone said:1. Not Nibalis fault that Froome doesn't have a good recovery
2. As you say. His tour win was a walk in the park. Didn't have to go all out at any point in the race.
3. Irrelevant that he hasn't beaten AC on a single mountain stage. Only the last 2 years that Nibali has been in what we might call "prime years" and they have not met each other in a single gt in those years, but I would bet my life savings on that he would have beaten AC in a gt last year
4. Better tt'er? On a hilly tt, perhpas. On a reasonably flat one? no way.
5. Palamares is a bad argument when we are talking about their situasion "now" anyways
Yes, plenty of water on the roads to Arenberg.Jspear said:If you base who has/had better form on how they performed throughout THIS whole season, AC still blows Nibali out of the water.