Are you a Vegetarian?

[Polyarmour]

.. if I called you a troll I appologize. We have never met, and you may be a reasonable person with sincere reasons for your actions. My goal was to point out the "bumber sticker philosophy" that often creeps into what should be discussions like this. Like... "Don't Mess With Texas!"

Or was he just expressing a cultural identification? Like I'm Italian therefore I eat pasta.

I understood it as "I'm Texan therefore the BBQ is a big part of the way I live my life". Coming from a hot climate myself I can understand this. BBQ's in particular are a social event that go way beyond just the food. I went to one on the weekend and the poor host was worried for days wondering what to feed the only vego guest. I think she would have felt better if I hadn't attended. Funny thing was, she ended up baking an eggplant, pumpkin and caramelised onion fritatta and the guests ditched the BBQ'd food in favour of it.

 

[lostintime]

I'm on my third day of just eating fruit and greens(bananas mixed with leafy spring mix in a blender,it's surprisingly good) and vegetable juice. I was quite concerned over what might happen... the great unknown. Would I crash for blood sugar irregularities? Would I wake up in the middle of the night craving food? Well.... no and no. I've found eating about every 3 hours is good. The key is in eating enough. I consumed over 3000 calories and rode for an hour and a half. I ate some dates on the ride, as I got hungry between meals. In hindsight, I don't think I ate enough beforehand.

I know my tries with eating raw foods always failed because I tried eating too many vegetables, nowhere near enough fruit. Vegetables are very low concentrations of calories, and hard to digest raw because all the fiber. I've juiced vegetables for the last 15 years with a low speed masticating juicer, it makes the nutrients immediately available. Only the fiber is discarded.

I felt good riding, but it's hard to judge anything because it's getting colder here, it was in the 40's. Cold weather riding is more about survival for me, as I really don't like riding in the cold, and fall is always the hardest transition coming from the heat of summer.

I have not had any meat since summer and don't miss it at all. No milk, no eggs except I tried some Quorn loaf that has some egg white in it about two weeks ago, it was pretty good.

I'll continue to try the raw food theory out, because it's all theory until you try it for yourself. I don't know if I'll be adding some cooked food or not. I'll just see how it goes.

 

[veganrob]

@lostintime
Good for you. It is a somewhat difficult transition but well worth it. Most important to remember is 1. get enough calories. You have to eat enough high quality, ripe fruit calories. 3000+ if your are training/racing. 2. Low fat. Do not use fat to get your calories, you will ultimately fail if you do so. It takes some getting used to because of the high volume of fruit but you get used to it and it becomes natural. I don't have an orange or two for a pre ride snack, I have 6. It fuels me for the duration. Post ride, 6-8 banana smoothies with berries and head of Romaine. You have to replace the glycogen with high quality ripe fruit. Do not eat unripe. Fuel up good day before hard ride.
Your performance will go to a higher level and then you will only desire to eat 811 because of how good you feel. Good luck to you. And read Dr. Grahams book. It answer all your questions.

 

[Polyarmour]

Living your passion is a good thing. Basing your diet on it is not. I've said it before and I'll say it again: vegetarians (or any food extremists) are not living in accordance with our evolutionary path.

How long you can fool mother nature depends on the individual.

Wiki on fructose:

Harley's liver may be able to handle the fructose load of 4000 bananas a day, but maybe not. Time will tell. But anyone looking for nutrition advise would be well advised to do a little research before attempting such silliness.

I think you'll find it's bananas.

Surely you're not arguing we're not meant to eat fruit because we didn't evolve eating it? You would be aware of the current thinking around the "Out of Africa" theory. What do think you think our (tropical) ancestors ate when the forest fruit trees came into season? Do you think they just let hundreds of mangoes drop to the ground and rot? Or do you think for several weeks/months they pretty much put down their spears and dined on mangoes, or bananas, or rambutans.... or even durians?

I mean it's a no brainer isn't it? Apply the "I'm stuck on a desert island" test. Faced with hunting wild animals (that might end up injuring or killing you) or picking ripe fruit off a tree, the fruit will win every time. The only reason you would take on the hunting is because you can't find enough fruit.

 

[craig1985]

I'm on my third day of just eating fruit and greens(bananas mixed with leafy spring mix in a blender,it's surprisingly good) and vegetable juice. I was quite concerned over what might happen... the great unknown. Would I crash for blood sugar irregularities? Would I wake up in the middle of the night craving food? Well.... no and no. I've found eating about every 3 hours is good. The key is in eating enough. I consumed over 3000 calories and rode for an hour and a half. I ate some dates on the ride, as I got hungry between meals. In hindsight, I don't think I ate enough beforehand.

I know my tries with eating raw foods always failed because I tried eating too many vegetables, nowhere near enough fruit. Vegetables are very low concentrations of calories, and hard to digest raw because all the fiber. I've juiced vegetables for the last 15 years with a low speed masticating juicer, it makes the nutrients immediately available. Only the fiber is discarded.

I felt good riding, but it's hard to judge anything because it's getting colder here, it was in the 40's. Cold weather riding is more about survival for me, as I really don't like riding in the cold, and fall is always the hardest transition coming from the heat of summer.

I have not had any meat since summer and don't miss it at all. No milk, no eggs except I tried some Quorn loaf that has some egg white in it about two weeks ago, it was pretty good.

I'll continue to try the raw food theory out, because it's all theory until you try it for yourself. I don't know if I'll be adding some cooked food or not. I'll just see how it goes.

So is this an experiment that you are doing, or have you made the 'leap' to veganism? Have you tried some of the recipes from the ebooks link that durianrider posted?

 

[durianrider]

Here's a video that gives an explanation of protein from a raw vegetarian food diet.
I was very skeptical about a vegetarian raw food diet and getting enough protein. What I'm learning is that much of this nutritional info we've been fed has been false. Raw food is full of enzymes. Enzymes are amino acids. Amino acids are what our bodies need.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae-dlHOmwk4

Google "protein myth"

Tim Van Orden is one of the best hill climb runners in the US. Drug free too I might add.

# All plant foods contain all 8 essential amino acids so the notion that animal products are 'complete protein' is like saying you have to buy a trek to get a carbon fiber frame..
http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/105/25/e197

#I walk around the street and RARELY find a fit looking person. I train all the time and really rarely find someone that can out climb me. Ive been a vegan for 9 years and even David Zabriskie has gone vegan.

 

[lostintime]

@lostintime
Good for you. It is a somewhat difficult transition but well worth it. Most important to remember is 1. get enough calories. You have to eat enough high quality, ripe fruit calories. 3000+ if your are training/racing. 2. Low fat. Do not use fat to get your calories, you will ultimately fail if you do so. It takes some getting used to because of the high volume of fruit but you get used to it and it becomes natural. I don't have an orange or two for a pre ride snack, I have 6. It fuels me for the duration. Post ride, 6-8 banana smoothies with berries and head of Romaine. You have to replace the glycogen with high quality ripe fruit. Do not eat unripe. Fuel up good day before hard ride.
Your performance will go to a higher level and then you will only desire to eat 811 because of how good you feel. Good luck to you. And read Dr. Grahams book. It answer all your questions.

So true what you write veganrob. It's exactly where I have failed before ... too much fat from nuts/seeds, not remotely near enough sweet fruit! Too many raw hard to digest vegetables=gastric distress. I'm off to get the book today. I recently bought a Vitamix blender too. It's got the power to pulverize that the cheapies don't have.

So is this an experiment that you are doing, or have you made the 'leap' to veganism? Have you tried some of the recipes from the ebooks link that durianrider posted?

I have to find out for myself what's true, for me at least, so this is what I'm doing for the present. Is it an experiment or a leap full time? I don't know, I'll take it a day at a time. My digestion is better than I've ever experienced, no gastric distress. No sleepiness in the day. Lots of energy. I've not tried any of the recipes, but thanks for reminding me of them, I forgot they were there. I made some raw hummus last night with spring mix and sprouted wheat bread(not raw). It tasted great but I felt a bit sleepy afterward, I don't know if it was from the Ezekial bread or what. I'll just monitor the effects of what foods do what. It seems that while eating fruit , I'm much more in tune with how my body reacts to what I put in. With cooked foods I tend to be in a fog much of the time, which I can clearly see has happened for a long time. Something I'll watch.


I'm kind of laughing at myself here ..... 'cause I always thought for anyone to eat raw and/or vegan food was wacked. Turns out, maybe not. Take a look in the mirror. Maybe I was the one who was wacked ! The only way to change is to honestly be aware of what you're doing ..... see the futility of doing the same errant thing over and over and over..... and make changes where you need to. It's easier said than done , because you've built your whole identity over what you were, and changing challenges that identity. Identities don't like to be challenged, so it takes courage to face them.

I walk around the street and RARELY find a fit looking person. I train all the time and really rarely find someone that can out climb me. Ive been a vegan for 9 years and even David Zabriskie has gone vegan.

Yeah, in the USA too, here in Ohio most are very unfit. Many people walk around like Penguins, waddling side to side .... feet shuffling.... limping ... It's actually quite sad. It's as though you can see their burdens in their walks.

 

[craig1985]

Wasn't that because Garmin did a whole bunch of tests and found that Dave Z was actually allergic to a lot of different foods?

(And BTW, I maybe a meat eater, but I barely have any body fat, anywhere, on me)

 

[stephens]

I thought that was the Eskimo (Danielson).

 

[craig1985]

Just thought about something today, and perhaps one of either durianrider, or veganrob and/or dave can answer this, how do you guys measure how many calories you eat in a day? Do you measure it by, a banana is worth x amount of calories, so if you eat five of them on a long training ride, then you can work how many calories you have consumed whilst on your ride?

Thanks.

 

[Polyarmour]

Just thought about something today, and perhaps one of either durianrider, or veganrob and/or dave can answer this, how do you guys measure how many calories you eat in a day? Do you measure it by, a banana is worth x amount of calories, so if you eat five of them on a long training ride, then you can work how many calories you have consumed whilst on your ride?

Thanks.

Craig, I came to the point some time ago that I measured and calculated everything I ate. After a while you get a feel for it and you can put the scales and calculator away.

I asked a similar question a while back. I think the answer can be found here:

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=6856&page=2

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

Are you a Vegetarian?

No, despite decades of chemical abuse, I still have more than two surviving brain cells.

 

[Polyarmour]

More nonsense. Plant based proteins = 3rd world proteins. There is a reason our species evolved on animal based proteins. You need to step back from this identity you've created for yourself (it's always in the screen name or signature with the vegetarians, isn't it? lol), and take some time to study human evolution.

I was thinking about this statement again. Implicit in the statement is the belief that eating meat gave humans "something extra" that enabled them to evolve to where they are today. However when you have vegetarians performing at the highest levels in both sport and academia it's a bit hard to argue that meat is some kind of "anabolic steroid". The fact is meat does not confer any tangible benefits that can't also be obtained from plant foods. The extent to which meat played a role in our evolution is in the provision of calories and that's about it.

 

[stephens]

Sure, because these days you can go to your supermarket and get fruits and vegetables all year round, regardless of the blizzard outside your door. So you're at no disadvantage to the meat eater. But back in the day, you know, when humans were evolving, the story was quite different.

 

[Polyarmour]

Sure, because these days you can go to your supermarket and get fruits and vegetables all year round, regardless of the blizzard outside your door. So you're at no disadvantage to the meat eater. But back in the day, you know, when humans were evolving, the story was quite different.

Humans evolved in the tropics I'm afraid. That's why you don't have fur.
They only moved north after they invented clothes.

 

[stephens]

It took me quite a while to figure out what you were talking about. The word "blizzard," right? That was just an example to stress that we now have unlimited access to fruits and vegetables regardless of the conditions and so a vegetarian lifestyle is not the disadvantage it once might have been. I could have said fire, rain, poor soil, being too busy, or any other thing that would make it hard to maintain a healthy, steady supply of non-meat foods.

Early evolutionary link aside, those humans who happened to have had more large animal species for food in their area certainly did much better than those who didn't. Everyone's read Guns, Germs, and Steel by now, right?

 

[Polyarmour]

It took me quite a while to figure out what you were talking about. The word "blizzard," right? That was just an example to stress that we now have unlimited access to fruits and vegetables regardless of the conditions and so a vegetarian lifestyle is not the disadvantage it once might have been. I could have said fire, rain, poor soil, being too busy, or any other thing that would make it hard to maintain a healthy, steady supply of non-meat foods.

Early evolutionary link aside, those humans who happened to have had more large animal species for food in their area certainly did much better than those who didn't. Everyone's read Guns, Germs, and Steel by now, right?

I don't doubt that meat was needed to supplement a lack of calories available from vegetables and fruit in certain environments. My dispute was that eating this meat somehow gave mankind a boost that was essential to his evolution. For example I have heard it said that eating meat was essential to the evolution of the brain from monkey to human. Yet today we have some very smart people being produced from vegetarian diets. Clearly Ghandi's brain was quite happy with vegetarian food too.

 

[Archibald]

It took me quite a while to figure out what you were talking about. The word "blizzard," right? That was just an example to stress that we now have unlimited access to fruits and vegetables regardless of the conditions and so a vegetarian lifestyle is not the disadvantage it once might have been. I could have said fire, rain, poor soil, being too busy, or any other thing that would make it hard to maintain a healthy, steady supply of non-meat foods.

Early evolutionary link aside, those humans who happened to have had more large animal species for food in their area certainly did much better than those who didn't. Everyone's read Guns, Germs, and Steel by now, right?

as ployarmour pointed out, we evolved in the tropics. we didn't start eating meat until we worked out how to sharpen the end of large sticks and make fire, so just what do you believe we started out eating? Which do you think was easier for "caveman" to obtain - chasing and spearing animals, or picking fruit?
the description of humans as "hunter gatherers" shows we did a fair bit of "gathering" - we didn't go planting vegetables or fruit trees for a long time. Does the term "nomad" or "migration" mean anything to you? or simply "going where the food is"?
we have evolved into something quite unnatural, and the current creation of our meat supplies goes even further away from this...

 

[lostintime]

I've been eating a mostly raw vegan diet for about 2 weeks now. I say mostly because I've had a few cooked meals of sweet potatoes. The difference in how I feel between a raw and cooked meal is noticeable. . . the cooked feels like a lump in my stomach, but the raw doesn't.

Overall, I'm surprised how good I feel. Bike riding is better for sure, but the big thing is I feel better all day long. I feel calmer and have more energy to do what I need to do. One bonus has been improved vision.

The key to implementing this diet is to eat enough sweet fruit. Bananas, pineapple, grapes, oranges, kiwis, papaya and dates have been the mainstay, with deep green leafy green lettuces. I eat those with dates or bananas. I've tried adding some various raw seeds, ground up, but they don't feel good digesting at all right now. Prior to these weeks , I was eating ground raw seeds, so it appears they weren't doing me much good.

As far as a 80/10/10 type diet of raw food goes ...... it's not for everyone. I'm in place where I wanted to make a change, and there came the opportunity. I wanted to make a change because I was tired of feeling crappy, though it took all these years to break through and cross the longest river of all ....... D'Nile .

 

[oldborn]

I don't doubt that meat was needed to supplement a lack of calories available from vegetables and fruit in certain environments. My dispute was that eating this meat somehow gave mankind a boost that was essential to his evolution. For example I have heard it said that eating meat was essential to the evolution of the brain from monkey to human. Yet today we have some very smart people being produced from vegetarian diets. Clearly Ghandi's brain was quite happy with vegetarian food too.

Quotation "Australopithecines like Lucy grew brains to our current size because meat let our digestive systems shrink, freeing up energy for a bigger brain. In fact, our brains are twice as large as they should be for a primate our size … and our digestive system is 60 percent smaller.

Consider gorillas. They are vegetarians and have the smallest brains and largest digestive systems of any primate. The exact opposite of humans. It’s our large brains that need the energy that only meat and a small digestive system can provide."

Scientists explore Chimps and Gorrilas lifes side by side. Chimps are ours closest relatives and they are omnivores like humans.


Some recent evidence show us that even Australopithecines were meat eaters, were using stone tools to cleave meat off animal bones as far back as 3.2-3.5 million years ago.1, and not by spear and bow invention.
We start eating meat not only by hunting big animals. Some worms, insects, small funny things etc. were very popular among cyclists these days.

Of course fire and weapons push it even further, by some scientists we have only one big difference beetwen us and dogs, and that is site of our canines, which many believe shrank after we started using fire and tools.

Quoatation: Herbivores also have a variety of specialized digestive organs capable of breaking down cellulose, the main component of plant tissue. Humans find cellulose totally indigestible, and even plant eaters have to take their time with it. If you were a ruminant (cud eater), for instance, you might have a stomach with four compartments, enabling you to cough up last night's alfalfa and chew on it all over again.

Quoatation:Good thing, too. I won't claim meat is the ideal source of protein, but on the whole it's better than plants. Sure, soybeans and other products of modern agriculture are pretty nutritious. But in the wild, much of the plant menu consists of leaves and stems, which are low in food value. True herbivores have to spend much of the day scrounging for snacks just to keep their strength up.


So i beleive based on what i read, that we are omnivores from our start, and plants and other food have important role in our development or no development. Necesstity and not health is prime reason for that.

Stay well!

 

[Polyarmour]

I've been eating a mostly raw vegan diet for about 2 weeks now. I say mostly because I've had a few cooked meals of sweet potatoes. The difference in how I feel between a raw and cooked meal is noticeable. . . the cooked feels like a lump in my stomach, but the raw doesn't.

Overall, I'm surprised how good I feel. Bike riding is better for sure, but the big thing is I feel better all day long. I feel calmer and have more energy to do what I need to do. One bonus has been improved vision.

The key to implementing this diet is to eat enough sweet fruit. Bananas, pineapple, grapes, oranges, kiwis, papaya and dates have been the mainstay, with deep green leafy green lettuces. I eat those with dates or bananas. I've tried adding some various raw seeds, ground up, but they don't feel good digesting at all right now. Prior to these weeks , I was eating ground raw seeds, so it appears they weren't doing me much good.

As far as a 80/10/10 type diet of raw food goes ...... it's not for everyone. I'm in place where I wanted to make a change, and there came the opportunity. I wanted to make a change because I was tired of feeling crappy, though it took all these years to break through and cross the longest river of all ....... D'Nile .

Lostintime, you were a vegan waiting to happen

 

[Polyarmour]

Quotation "Australopithecines like Lucy grew brains to our current size because meat let our digestive systems shrink, freeing up energy for a bigger brain. In fact, our brains are twice as large as they should be for a primate our size … and our digestive system is 60 percent smaller.

Consider gorillas. They are vegetarians and have the smallest brains and largest digestive systems of any primate. The exact opposite of humans. It’s our large brains that need the energy that only meat and a small digestive system can provide."

Scientists explore Chimps and Gorrilas lifes side by side. Chimps are ours closest relatives and they are omnivores like humans.

I'm not sure where you got this from but I'm not sure it's a credible reference? Sounds more like the type of conversation that would happen at a pub between two drunks.

The "Expensive Tissue Hypothesis" to which this refers, is just a hypothesis. At this stage unproven and very much disputed.

Take for example the comment,

"It’s our large brains that need the energy that only meat and a small digestive system can provide."

Only meat can provide the energy for a large brain!! This is exactly what I was saying. It's complete nonsense when you have phd vegetarians all over the place, yet "only meat can provide the energy for a large brain".

 

[oldborn]

I'm not sure where you got this from but I'm not sure it's a credible reference? Sounds more like the type of conversation that would happen at a pub between two drunks.

The "Expensive Tissue Hypothesis" to which this refers, is just a hypothesis. At this stage unproven and very much disputed.

Of course that is a "smoking gun" in men evolution, why do you think that all scientist sholud have same thoughts, but evidencies are there whether you like it or not, or you think it is a two drunks chating. For now as we know oldest stone tools were about 2,5 million years old, so Selam tool was made almost million year earlier.

Maybe this 3,2 million year tool has been used by onother our yet not discovered relative, who knows.

My question to you, are you willing to accept new evidencies about Australopithecus way of life and intelegent when (or?) they gonna be mainstreem or not? Those and some other recent discoveries seriously testing our entire history and books, so why scinetist should accept it, what they gonna teach and beleive, maybe there is some new evidence is waiting to be discovered and that gonna collaps their world of human evolution, same as Darwin theory.

There is a study from co-author Zeresenay Alemseged, the palaeoanthropologist from the California Academy of Sciences in San Francisco, who found these stones with cut marks 200m from Selam ("Lucy s doughter") so maybe those tools are oldest tools ever found (3,2-3,4 mil. years) and evidence for australopithecus beeing meat eater from start.

"With stone tools in hand to quickly pull off flesh and break open bones, animal carcasses would have become a more attractive source of food. This type of behavior sent us down a path that later would lead to two of the defining features of our species -- carnivory and tool manufacture and use."
(says Dr. Shannon McPherron, archeologist with the Dikika Research Project and research scientist at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig)

So i agree with you that it is hard to determine what people eat before 3,2 million years ago, and we can only guess, but evidence guess is better than two between drunks chat.

Take for example the comment,

Only meat can provide the energy for a large brain!! This is exactly what I was saying. It's complete nonsense when you have phd vegetarians all over the place, yet "only meat can provide the energy for a large brain".

Your last comment is still mystery to me, please plain English.

 

[Polyarmour]

Of course that is a "smoking gun" in men evolution, why do you think that all scientist sholud have same thoughts, but evidencies are there whether you like it or not, or you think it is a two drunks chating. For now as we know oldest stone tools were about 2,5 million years old, so Selam tool was made almost million year earlier.

Maybe this 3,2 million year tool has been used by onother our yet not discovered relative, who knows.

My question to you, are you willing to accept new evidencies about Australopithecus way of life and intelegent when (or?) they gonna be mainstreem or not? Those and some other recent discoveries seriously testing our entire history and books, so why scinetist should accept it, what they gonna teach and beleive, maybe there is some new evidence is waiting to be discovered and that gonna collaps their world of human evolution, same as Darwin theory.

There is a study from co-author Zeresenay Alemseged, the palaeoanthropologist from the California Academy of Sciences in San Francisco, who found these stones with cut marks 200m from Selam ("Lucy s doughter") so maybe those tools are oldest tools ever found (3,2-3,4 mil. years) and evidence for australopithecus beeing meat eater from start.

"With stone tools in hand to quickly pull off flesh and break open bones, animal carcasses would have become a more attractive source of food. This type of behavior sent us down a path that later would lead to two of the defining features of our species -- carnivory and tool manufacture and use."
(says Dr. Shannon McPherron, archeologist with the Dikika Research Project and research scientist at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig)

So i agree with you that it is hard to determine what people eat before 3,2 million years ago, and we can only guess, but evidence guess is better than two between drunks chat.



Your last comment is still mystery to me, please plain English.

I'm not sure about your tools argument. Who knows? Do you think Australopithecus was also cooking the meat 3 million years ago? Or eating it raw, like a dog does?

This is your quote

"It’s our large brains that need the energy that only meat and a small digestive system can provide."

I was disputing this statement. It says ONLY meat can provide the energy for a large brain. It's nonsense. Some of our smartest people are vegetarians. Their brains don't need meat.

PS Oldborn: Which country are you from?

 

[oldborn]

I'm not sure about your tools argument. Who knows? Do you think Australopithecus was also cooking the meat 3 million years ago? Or eating it raw, like a dog does?

This is your quote



I was disputing this statement. It says ONLY meat can provide the energy for a large brain. It's nonsense. Some of our smartest people are vegetarians. Their brains don't need meat.

PS Oldborn: Which country are you from?

There is a link http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129180191 to transcript of radio show where couple of scientist (Dr.Zeresenay Alemseged included) have discussion about it, very interesting. I can not find study itself. It is interesting to see all pro and contras.

Did they cooking meat, i doubt. As i mention they alleged eat dead animals.

Ok, i understand your comment now.

Croatia, "Mediterranean as it once was" did not see that commercial on Eurosport.

Stay well!