Are you a Vegetarian?

[stephens]

Right on Runninboy! I like your attitude and I bet I'd like your family's beef, too!

 

[runninboy]

Right on Runninboy! I like your attitude and I bet I'd like your family's beef, too!

Thanks, i agree with your observations as well. Lots of good commentary here but it seems like these discussions usually break down from a point of sharing information and enlightenment which is productive. To ridiculing and denigrating any opposing view because of a lack of respect. If people knew what was involved in the rural culture and animal production and had to live it 24/7 they might come to appreciate , as i did , that things are rarely as cut and dried as they appear from the outside.
Although my family had farming in its blood, my father was a lawyer and bought a farm as a casual investment. It nearly broke us as it is not as easy as city people think. One of the biggest misconceptions is that you can stockpile land and set it aside. Farmland has to be cared for and takes tremendous effort and expense to keep it's value and keep the life contained therin. One only has to go back to the history of the dustbowl to see what happens if you neglect the land. We found cattle to be an asset to land preservation rather than a drain on it. People drive by a feedlot or a dairy and think that is where cattle come from and many times that is their only first hand experience. But cattle are not raised on "factory farms" mostly they come from small family operations like ours.
While i can understand peoples ethical opposition to eating meat, it does no good to have a discussion where people throw out biased "facts".

 

[veganrob]

Save water, save grain save the planet.
Um you do know that is a gross generalization right?

My families cattle are all grass fed, so kind of kills a few assumptions you made there. Veggies also are not neccessarily enviromentally friendly. Did you know that certain pesticides and chemicals are allowed to used in "organic" farming? Organic does not neccessarily mean natural.
Now on our farm we raise nor use any grain. the cattle are rotated over many acres, so we use natural fertilizer to keep the soil ph balanced. we use buffer zones on all our ground to minimize any erosion. We have also converted land from erodable cropland to conservation reserve for wildife. However this land still has to be worked, if it were to remain idle top soil would be lost. So at certain times of the year( there are strict regulations to avoid nesting seasons etc) we disk under the combination vegetation that has been planted to provide cover & feed for wildlife , maximize soil regeneration and minimize soil erosion and replace it with a new seeding that compliments the old.There are very strict regulations from the dept of resources which tell us exactly when and where to do this. Farming is much more complicated than you would think. You cannot just sit by and try to let land return to its natural state. there are too many invasive non native species that destroy the land. Cattle help to minimize their effects and give us the resources to be able to afford to set land aside to preserve it for wildlife & future generations. I am speaking only from my families own personal experience. But if you raise cattle in general, the old fashioned way, with a little modern tweeking it can mitigate any damage caused.
Just for your info. raising vegetable except on a very small scale can involve many questionable practices. For instance leaving Genetically modified issues aside, what fertilizer would you use? Well most fertilizer today is petroleum based, that is one reason food prices are rising. the chemical companies control all the fertilizer. Animal based fertilizers are more natural and better for the enviroment imo. So what do the vegetable producers use for fertilizer? If there were no animals it would all be petroleum/chemically based. Then you add the pesticides. Also chemically based. How much water is used to raise vegetables? You complain about cattle feed(corn) but where my family has their farm it is all rainwater, no irrigation.
all things need to be in balance.
I appreciate your position and opinion. But quoting "facts" ignore that there is more to these issues than just black & white.
If you wish to be a vegetarian for whatever reason fine, but dont tell me what it takes to raise cattle as you probably have less personal knowledge on the subject.

Just to add a little more to the debate, there had been a widely quoted study as to the effects on resources . They took in all the "factors" and showed how bad it was to raise cattle and then compared it to other industries.
The problem with the study was when someone questioned the fact that transportation costs and fuel were only quantified for livestock and not in the competing industries. Not exactly an unbiased view.
So when you quote figures without personal knowledge of what it does or does not include(grass fed cattle for one, the amount of water to raise vegetable #2) expect those figures to not be accepted as fact by everyone.

Did you read "The Omnivores Dilemma"? Great read. I obviously am vegan, have been for 33 years. I also believe one can raise livestock in an environmentally friendly way, as you appear to be doing. It is the CAFO's that are evil, and I will extend that to industrial produce farming also which are destroying the planet. So though I wish the world was vegan, and would be better off, I applaud you for your efforts.

 

[runninboy]

Did you read "The Omnivores Dilemma"? Great read. I obviously am vegan, have been for 33 years. I also believe one can raise livestock in an environmentally friendly way, as you appear to be doing. It is the CAFO's that are evil, and I will extend that to industrial produce farming also which are destroying the planet. So though I wish the world was vegan, and would be better off, I applaud you for your efforts.

No but thanks. Most of my conclusions were based on views from working with my 80 year old grandfather. He taught me that modern wasn't always the smartest or the best way of doing things. For instance it was taught to me to have respect for the land that even thought you "owned it" all you really were was the caretaker. Same with the animals, yes they give up their lives eventually but you respect them and treat them as best you can.I can't tell you how many times my family has risked their lives personally to save an animal. Sometimes one that you didnt even own. But you did it because it is the right thing to do. If we have a cow die we take the loss, but we pay far more money to autopsy to make sure we don't have a problem and can prevent needless death. Yes there is an economic aspect but it is a moral value. Just a short story. We had a mudhole develop after some long rains, we drove out to check on the cattle and found one trapped in the mud we realized she had been there for quite some time( i had fenced it off but she broke through where i couldnt see)and probably would not survive. Now a businessman would probably put a bullet in her head and dragged the carcass out. But as my family are famers my Mother & grandfather told me i had to get her out because"no one should die like that" So i set up some planks and tried to make my way across the quick mud(mud version of quicksand) and tried to get some boards under her. She was in deep but not so deep she couldn't fight me with her head. (i had a cousin who had a metal plate in his skull as the result of such an encounter with a cows head) So there i was trying to save this cow, trying not to get hit by her head and all the time the planks(and me!) are sinking deeper into the mud. Eventually we got her out and while we were unable to save her we know we did the best we could and that we didnt let her die in the mud.
We do things the old fashioned way, we let the animals breed naturally no artificial insemination. We don't feed corn but in the winter our neighbors who raise corn let our cows into the field to eat the stalks and the corn the combine missed. This gives the cows added warmth to survive the winter but also allows the neighbor to have less byproduct and allows him to use less chemicals(added natural fertilizer from the cattle and removed secondary seed that would have to be sprayed) and by removing the byproduct of last years crop less tillage is needed so less topsoil is lost and less chemical means less chance of runoff.
So much to learn on a farm

 

[lostintime]

I am wholly aware of what I said and how I said it runninboy. I am aware that some here would take offense. It is impossible to speak in this forum, any forum, or any person in our lives . . . .without the risk of offending someone.

My intent in that post was to illustrate just how alseep we all are. Who am I to make such an assumption? I am nobody. I am but an arrangement of words you see on a pc screen. Yet you are offended? How can one be so offended by mere words if they were not asleep in some way? What is being reacted to? Please think without reacting, if but for a moment. If not, you can always go back asleep and call me names. (which makes the point further)

More to the point of this discussion, when there are perfectly suitable food alternatives for you to live a healthy life, doesn't the raising of animals for the sole purpose of killing them ..... a waste to any degree? It doesn't matter how much you say you care for them.... you are raising them with the sole intent on killing them for your benefit. If this doesn't strike you as odd, I hope some day it may. If it takes saying what I said earlier to get you to even consider what you're doing , so be it. It's no shot in my heart.

I'm not saying this to get you to be angry for me or for the forums recreation. There is no authority speaking over you here. I'm just a fellow human, tired of seeing the same ol same ol repeated over and over. Call me nuts, but I believe we can do better than this. My intent here is to spark a break in the habitual unconscious thinking we are all prone to. If we can see for a even a moment the attachments we have to the anger , maybe we will be able to see the futility of it.... and once we see that and the harm it does to ourselves and each other, maybe we would drop it. The anger just hides the fear. Come to think of it ... how can one eat the meat , and not feel the fear the animal has experienced? I don't know about you .... but that doesn't sound like good cuisine.

Don't want to hear it? You just did. If one person here relates to a lick of what I expressed, maybe that's one less person needlessly suffering, and maybe they'll want to make some changes in their life. If that is considered wrong, one must ask who and what is considering.

 

[stephens]

My intent in that post was to illustrate just how alseep we all are.

There you go again, judging other people you've never even met. Why not just describe your own life experience and why you do what you do, without judging others?

 

[veganrob]

I have tried to stay away from this thread because of the ridiculous comments by some people.
I have seen and experienced it all. I worked in a packing house and slaughterhouse for five years after I got out of high school and it had a profound affect on me. I became a vegan and have been so for 33 years now. I have done animal welfare protests at circuses, rodeos, race tracks puppy mills...But the best way I have found to reach someone is by not reaching out at all. Let my actions speak for themselve. If someone is interested in my life choices I will be happy to share them. I can't stand the sanctimonious, self absorbed, attention seeking, ego maniacs who think their way is better than everyone elses.
Lostintime is playing mind games with all his "we are all asleep BS" and DR's ridiculousness speaks for itself.
I know one thing, I would much rather go for a bike ride with runninboy anyday than lostintime or Dr.
AAhhhh just want to scream.

 

[Polyarmour]

I have tried to stay away from this thread because of the ridiculous comments by some people.
I have seen and experienced it all. I worked in a packing house and slaughterhouse for five years after I got out of high school and it had a profound affect on me. I became a vegan and have been so for 33 years now. I have done animal welfare protests at circuses, rodeos, race tracks puppy mills...But the best way I have found to reach someone is by not reaching out at all. Let my actions speak for themselve. If someone is interested in my life choices I will be happy to share them. I can't stand the sanctimonious, self absorbed, attention seeking, ego maniacs who think their way is better than everyone elses.
Lostintime is playing mind games with all his "we are all asleep BS" and DR's ridiculousness speaks for itself.
I know one thing, I would much rather go for a bike ride with runninboy anyday than lostintime or Dr.
AAhhhh just want to scream.

Soooo, it's ok to do animal protests at circuses, rodeos and race tracks etc, but get a bit preachy on a forum and you've completely overstepped the mark??? Sorry VeganRob I don't think you are "holier than thou" on this. Clearly many vegetarians and vegan not only don't like eating meat themselves, they are also offended if others eat it. And finding a diplomatic way of getting this message across is the problem. Perhaps you have your way of expressing this and others have another way?

 

[lostintime]

Who in their heart of hearts enjoys being angry, hurt, annoyed, depressed , striking out, striking back, and ending life over and over and over?

This is no game. How does it feel?

That's the point. Who in their heart of hearts wants to harm another being?

That's the game we've all been fooled into playing. Eat them before being eaten.

Arrogant, insane, wacko ? Yup .... I'm all of those. .... just like everyone else on the planet.

I took a chance by saying what I have. I knew some would not understand, misinterpret, and hence be offended, and I don't blame them. Many go through their entire life without saying anything of their sincere beliefs, because they have received reactions like the few of you here. Comes a time to just Sing your song . . and not take what others think about it to heart..... because you trust the intention you sang it by.

 

[runninboy]

That's the point. Who in their heart of hearts wants to harm another being?

That's the game we've all been fooled into playing. Eat them before being eaten.

Arrogant, insane, wacko ? Yup .... I'm all of those. .... just like everyone else on the planet.

I took a chance by saying what I have. I knew some would not understand, misinterpret, and hence be offended, and I don't blame them. Many go through their entire life without saying anything of their sincere beliefs, because they have received reactions like the few of you here. Comes a time to just Sing your song . . and not take what others think about it to heart..... because you trust the intention you sang it by.

OK this will be my last response to you, I just would like you to think about a few things.
My psychology teacher in college was also an award winning practicing psychiatrist. One of the most important concepts he stressed was the ying & yang that there had to balance in all things.
When does enlightenment end and ego and control start for instance?
I remember he taught us that dream interpretation in the conventional sense was a crock.
Why?
Mainly we are all individuals with different life experiences that affect us in different ways. TO generalize you ignore the truth and the individual.
In someone's dream a train rushing through a tunnel is frequently equalled to sex. But for some people it could represent their life rapidly slipping away from them. For someone like me it would probably represent my mother.Because some of my earliest and fondest memories was taking a daily afternoon walk with my mother to watch the trains pass by, and we would talk about where they would go etc etc.

Now you my friend are one of those people who has found enlightenment and i congratulate you. However you now try to take your reality an impose it on other people
When someone protest or demonstrates it is an informative situation, to get people to think twice about what they are doing and then make their own decision.
But that is not what you are doing, you are making assumptions and generalizations about other people based on your own life and denigrating other people for not being as enlightened as yourself.
You know nothing of me, my family my life experience. and yet you have decided that we are brainwashed into thinking and reacting a certain way.
How dare you!
Sometimes people have no choice in the matter.
Without getting into a long explanation. My sisters both have severley comprimised immune systems. We must raise a good amount of the food they eat because of "helpful" people who think they know better. The people who alter food to make it better, additives preservatives. Many natural ingredients that are added to products are deadly to my family.
One day i was at a whole foods looking at some barley bread, a "helpful" employee came over and asked why i was reading the ingredient label, i said my sisters both had deadly reactions to soy in even small amounts.
This person told me it was not possible for women to be allergic to soy.
She really got in my face about it and i couldnt believe it. This person had no personal knowledge of our situation, how my sister had spent 45 days in an intensive care unit because of "helpful" people who thought they should make a decision that would benefit "everyone".
Now i come up against you. In my sisters case, meat & animal products do not affect their allergies(of which they have many) However as one of her other conditions is diabetes it is a neccessary evil for her to control her blood sugar. Don't even start to give me other options, as i told you there is a long list of things that would kill them, mainly due to misdiagnosis & mistreatments of several ailments when they were young.

Now i can appreciate you think you are coming from a better place but why? Why do you think the world exists for everyone else in the same context as it does for you? It does not. I am glad you want to make the world what you feel is a better place, but remember there is a right way and a wrong way. The wrong way is to discount and demeanother people because they have not come to the same conclusion as yourself.
Especially when you have no personal knowledge of what is going on in the other peoples lives how dare you judge them.

while you believe you are allowed to "sing your song" because your intent is noble I wish you could understand that in the real world there can be disasterous consequences to your actions no matter how noble your intent.

 

[lostintime]

runninboy,
If encouraging anyone to look in the mirror is imposing , I suggest one ask what the threat is. Your vehement reaction far outweighs any real danger you are in from my words, and you are reacting as if I am speaking to your situation specifically.

You're defending a slight that never happened. If I am the only one who sees the insanity of this, so be it.

I have no more desire to continue with you and anyone else who thinks I'm slighting them specifically. Peace.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I became a vegan and have been so for 33 years now.....

That's a long time Rob. Impressive. Back 30 years ago society was sure different.

Curious what you do about getting enough Vitamin D? Vitamin B-12? Those seem to be the two most difficult to get as a vegan.

 

[durianrider]

Vitamin D deficiency is ever increasing in Australia. A land where eating animals for breakfast is 'normal'.

http://www.femail.com.au/anthony-pearce-vitamin-d-deficiency.htm

B12 deficiency is rife in the US. A land where eating bambi, babe or bullwinkle is 'normal'.

http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2000/000802.htm

Every TDF rider Ive asked about b12 supps, they all take em. The only one that is a vegan is Dave Zabriske.

People think that they are safe from Vitamin D and b12 deficiencies cos they eat a SAD(Standard Australia/American Diet) diet. Science indicates thats far from the truth. Get your levels checked every few months and take a supp if need be.

 

[Archibald]

Vitamin D deficiency is ever increasing in Australia. A land where eating animals for breakfast is 'normal'.

http://www.femail.com.au/anthony-pearce-vitamin-d-deficiency.htm

B12 deficiency is rife in the US. A land where eating bambi, babe or bullwinkle is 'normal'.

http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2000/000802.htm

Every TDF rider Ive asked about b12 supps, they all take em. The only one that is a vegan is Dave Zabriske.

People think that they are safe from Vitamin D and b12 deficiencies cos they eat a SAD(Standard Australia/American Diet) diet. Science indicates thats far from the truth. Get your levels checked every few months and take a supp if need be.

is perhaps the vitamin D issue partially due to folks covering up from the sun more? (I know, I probably should read the article...)
I'm not so sure that eating an animal for breakfast is all that 'normal' in Aus either where it's all about your Weetbix and Cornies? Bacon n eggs is far more an English thing where hot breakies are generally the go...
which coincidentally has a high rate of SADs sufferers (Seasonal Affected Disorder) brought about by not seeing or receiving enough sunlight (vitamin D)...

as for the vitB shots that riders constantly get (I see comments on this in almost every cycling book I've read), I'm not so sure that they are only vitamin B that's in the syringe - if you get my drift...

don't get me wrong about the vegan issue, I support that (being one of the few others having read the China Study), but these are my initial reactions to your post...

 

[beepee]

Fruit and veg

There is enough protein in fruit and veg as long as you eat enough to meet your energy requirements.

 

[stephens]

There is enough protein in fruit and veg as long as you eat enough to meet your energy requirements.

Terms like "enough" are pretty vague and it depends on what you put in the categories of fruits and vegetables (are you including grains, nuts, legumes?). How many calories of fruits and vegetables would I have to consume in order to get 150 grams of protein a day? Impossible I would think with things that people typically consider "fruits and vegetables."

 

[lostintime]

Terms like "enough" are pretty vague and it depends on what you put in the categories of fruits and vegetables (are you including grains, nuts, legumes?). How many calories of fruits and vegetables would I have to consume in order to get 150 grams of protein a day? Impossible I would think with things that people typically consider "fruits and vegetables."

150g a day ? who needs that ? no human I know of .

 

[stephens]

I thought we were talking about athletes here. It's quite common for athletes to eat at least 2 grams of protein per kilogram of their body weight in order to promote muscle development/maintenance. For a 160 pound athlete that'd be 150grams a day. Or figure it out by percentage of calories: i doubt many of us here eat less than 3000 calories a day while training and at a minimum we should be getting 20% of our calories as protein which would be 600 and since it's 4 calories per gram of protein, there's our 150g of protein.

I'm only 66kg and I usually struggle to get to 100g even with some meat in my diet.

 

[lostintime]

I thought we were talking about athletes here. It's quite common for athletes to eat at least 2 grams of protein per kilogram of their body weight in order to promote muscle development/maintenance. For a 160 pound athlete that'd be 150grams a day. Or figure it out by percentage of calories: i doubt many of us here eat less than 3000 calories a day while training and at a minimum we should be getting 20% of our calories as protein which would be 600 and since it's 4 calories per gram of protein, there's our 150g of protein.

I'm only 66kg and I usually struggle to get to 100g even with some meat in my diet.

I can only speak for myself, not of arbitrary formulas. We can believe anyone's high protein or low protein mantra , but until you try them for yourself in earnest, our words are empty.

Since eating mostly fruit and deep green lettuces and spinach, etc.. my protein intake is now 5-10%. Yet, I' now experience greater strength, endurance and recovery.... than I ever had eating more than 20% protein a day from animal and grain .

I'm as surprised as anyone could be. I keep scratching my head and laughing... How Can This Be? ..... because of all the untruths I once bought as the truth, are seen for what they were. Someone else's truth. Speaking for myself alone.

 

[stephens]

With your sample size of one, what you should have said is "Personally I've found I don't need much protein," and not make a general statement about no one needing 150g of protein.

I will agree that carbs make us feel great. In fact, so great that I wonder if this feeling might be masking reality sometimes. As long as we are going with anecdotes, a lot of us really seem to believe that post workout protein has improved our lives. There are studies that show it's effectiveness, but I'm sure there are others saying it doesn't matter.

I'm all for a non-meat diet. But I prefer to include grains, nuts, legumes, and even dairy to be sure to provide myself with all the stuff I think I need.

 

[craig1985]

I can only speak for myself, not of arbitrary formulas. We can believe anyone's high protein or low protein mantra , but until you try them for yourself in earnest, our words are empty.

Since eating mostly fruit and deep green lettuces and spinach, etc.. my protein intake is now 5-10%. Yet, I' now experience greater strength, endurance and recovery.... than I ever had eating more than 20% protein a day from animal and grain .

I'm as surprised as anyone could be. I keep scratching my head and laughing... How Can This Be? ..... because of all the untruths I once bought as the truth, are seen for what they were. Someone else's truth. Speaking for myself alone.

If you don't mind, can you give a brief run down on what you eat for each meal? I'm genuinely interested.

 

[lostintime]

Sure Craig ....

Yesterday bfast.... 7 really large bananas, 2 cups of frozen berries(thawed overnite), 2 large mangos,the juice of 2 large oranges(done manually with a cheap basic grocer hand juicer), and 4 soaked Medjool dates for some extra calories. Blended in a big blender, the goal is 50-60oz. 3 hours later, efore a 1.25 hour ride in the cold, I had a small pineapple, and 5 oranges in the vita-mix blender. I makes it very smooth, "chew" the juicy puree. Shortly after the ride I had another blend of 6 soaked dates, 5 bananas ,2 kiwis, and a mango, with about 3 celery stalks. After that I chewed a half pound of deep green romaine. 3 hours later or so I had 8oz of turkish figs I had soaked overnite(with the soaking juice), with a couple more bananas, 2oz. of raw Brazil nuts, and about a pound of the romaine.
Last meal of the day was light, just the juice of 6 oranges and a grapefruit, and a couple of bananas.

Looking back at it .... I think I'm still a little low on cals.. I'm still learning how to maximize the calorie to volume ratio as I go. Fortunately it's winter so I'm not able to ride as often or as long as in summer, so this is a good time for trial and error. I've started adding the soaked dates to the blends as a way to boost the cals. without adding more volume. I'm going to try the same with soaking sun dried raisins and adding them. I am an eclectic eater though, I just combine whatever tastes good, so don't take my combination's as anything but one person's way!

Some people prefer to eat the foods whole, no blending. I may get there at some point, but for now this works, and I'll adjust as necessary down the road. This is still relatively new for me, I made the full time commitment starting in Nov., but had transitioned by eating some all fruit meals since last summer. Some people can just jump right in with no transition, but there's always growing pains in changing! I still sometimes eat a big bowl of cooked yams, as the need arises. Maybe once or twice a month. It's about the only cooked thing that I have a taste for. They are a winter favorite, so come spring I doubt I'll want them anymore.

 

[craig1985]

Thanks, what are your (or even Harley's) views on eating things like bread, bread rolls, jam etc.? My lunch today consisted of a jam sandwhich, 2x bannas, and an orange, I seemed to survive all right.

 

[lostintime]

Thanks, what are your (or even Harley's) views on eating things like bread, bread rolls, jam etc.? My lunch today consisted of a jam sandwhich, 2x bannas, and an orange, I seemed to survive all right.

It's not that they are sooo bad . ... I mean , they just are not really that great of food. Now ... people will always counter argue that... I accept that ... because to challenge a long standing tradition of eating refined foods will be met with strong opposition. Everything needs to be challenged, or else we have nutritional dogma.

I accept people for who they are , but at the same time, when I have experienced something that has worked for me and many others, I am at times drawn to speak about it.

Like I said, yes, people live long lives on refined foods. They do great things. At the same time ... what if there was a better way to live ones life? I am dumbfounded by what eating fruit has done not just for my body, but my whole life. I was drawn to try this, because I was dissatisfied with just getting by in life. This is entirely personal of course, so I offer no judgments of others for their choices. But... if no one speaks up and says hey. . . this has helped me change my life for the better! ... heck ... we'd go nowhere as a people in general. yes?

I noticed Craig ... you said "I seemed to survive all right." Is that not telling ? would you rather survive... or thrive, if it was possible? No judgments here brother, just observations. I recognize I can never know your life , and how you are to live it. I don't know if or what eating more fruit would do for you, but you have nothing to lose, but opportunity, yes?

 

[Polyarmour]

Like I said, yes, people live long lives on refined foods. They do great things. At the same time ... what if there was a better way to live ones life? I am dumbfounded by what eating fruit has done not just for my body, but my whole life. I was drawn to try this, because I was dissatisfied with just getting by in life. This is entirely personal of course, so I offer no judgments of others for their choices. But... if no one speaks up and says hey. . . this has helped me change my life for the better! ... heck ... we'd go nowhere as a people in general. yes?

Can you quantify any improvements in your health? Has your cycling improved? For example when I dropped meat from my diet my times for various events continued to improve so I was happy that I wasn't causing any harm.