Astana rider details Contador's doping practices

[webvan]

just read the complete article, doesn't say much more then what we knew last week from the internet-articel, but the article definitely ain't fake, its a serious article not satire or an attempt at humour

Good to hear, any chance you could scan it? What more does it say, even if isn't much, thanks!

 

[hrotha]

If I recall correctly Fuentes already did the whole frozen blood cells thing in 2005 or 2006. Would the clenbuterol traces still have showed up in the tests if he had taken it in late winter before drawing and freezing his blood?

 

[Merckx index]

If I recall correctly Fuentes already did the whole frozen blood cells thing in 2005 or 2006. Would the clenbuterol traces still have showed up in the tests if he had taken it in late winter before drawing and freezing his blood?

When red cells are separated from plasma before freezing, any drug like CB present in the circulation is removed. It's in the plasma, not in the cells, except in very tiny amounts in any liquid trapped in the cells. Possibly some small amounts are bound to the red cells, too, but most of it should be in the plasma. So this transfusion process would not expose the rider to CB, unless he froze the plasma and transfused that later, too.

In short, a rider using the frozen cell method should not, following transfusion of these cells, test positive for CB or any other drug he might have taken during the period prior to withdrawal, nor should he test positive for DEHP.

 

[Cobblestones]

just read the complete article, doesn't say much more then what we knew last week from the internet-articel, but the article definitely ain't fake, its a serious article not satire or an attempt at humour

Good enough for me. A person who read the print version and says it's not an attempt at satire. Thanks Michele

Of course, their source could still be corrupt, but at one point you simply have to trust that the journalist did a good enough job at checking.

 

[scribe]

Good enough for me. A person who read the print version and says it's not an attempt at satire. Thanks Michele

Of course, their source could still be corrupt, but at one point you simply have to trust that the journalist did a good enough job at checking.

I don't lend much of my opinion from anonymous sources. All these guys, in and around cycling, seem to have 'stories'.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

See my post above. The Humo article claimed that Bert withdrew blood a few weeks before the Tour, the idea being he was taking CB for weight loss after the DL. But if he used frozen cells, he would not have to withdraw blood at any time during the season. He could have collected the cells during the off-season, as they could be stored for many months.

My impression is that the riders who have the resources--and Bert obviously tops this list--freeze blood, as it avoids having to make withdrawals throughout the season. Also, it seems that when red cells are stored frozen, the bags used contain very little DEHP. If this is the case, then the DEHP test really isn't much good. It may catch second-tier riders, who don't have a centrifuge and who must therefore store and transfuse whole blood, but will probably not catch most riders who separate and freeze red cells. This also supports the possibility, that I discussed earlier, that Bert's DEHP values resulted from legitimate environmental sources, and not from transfusion.

Think about the twists in this case. It may be that Bert got busted for CB because he didn't know there were a few detectors capable of revealing concentrations as low as 50 pg/nl. Then he gets nailed for transfusion because his "natural" values are somewhat high. He claims he got the CB from contaminated meat, while a lot of people think he got it from transfusion, and both claims may have been wrong. He may have intentionally taken CB, and been a false positive in the DEHP test. Weird stuff.

1. They might still save the plasma to dilute the blood.

2. Hamilton transfused post DL and Fuentes froze blood, didn't he?

 

[Adamastor]

no offense, but this article is word for word reprint of the flemish article and dated 8 oct. it plainly refers to humo as the source. where is the news there ?

it's 14:30 CEST. did anyone see the humo article in the paper version ?

No offense but read my post. My point was belgian tv wouldn't TAKE OVER (read "relay") the news, if Humo were a micky mouse magazine. No other media as up to now brought fresh news ( to my knowledge) om who the astana contact might be

 

[Merckx index]

1. They might still save the plasma to dilute the blood.

2. Hamilton transfused post DL and Fuentes froze blood, didn't he?

They might save the plasma, or they might just use saline. If plasma was saved and used, that could account for the CB positive, but probably not the DEHP value, as I believe the plasma would also be frozen. The bags used to store frozen materials contain little or no DEHP, and in any case, what DEHP present does not leach out much under freezing conditions. On the other hand, if the rider used saline to dilute the cells, that would not account for the CB positive, but it might account for the DEHP, as the saline might well be stored in a DEPH-containing bag.

Wrt Hamilton, the issue is not whether transfusion took place. The issue is when the blood used for transfusion was withdrawn. Again, if red cells are frozen, the blood can be withdrawn at any convenient time, so presumably during the off-season. The transfusion occurs just before a major race.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

They might save the plasma, or they might just use saline. If plasma was saved and used, that could account for the CB positive, but probably not the DEHP value, as I believe the plasma would also be frozen. The bags used to store frozen materials contain little or no DEHP, and in any case, what DEHP present does not leach out much under freezing conditions. On the other hand, if the rider used saline to dilute the cells, that would not account for the CB positive, but it might account for the DEHP, as the saline might well be stored in a DEPH-containing bag.

Wrt Hamilton, the issue is not whether transfusion took place. The issue is when the blood used for transfusion was withdrawn. Again, if red cells are frozen, the blood can be withdrawn at any convenient time, so presumably during the off-season. The transfusion occurs just before a major race.

RBCs can be stored and reused within 6 weeks under normal refrigeration.

But actually freezing them for reuse longer than this involves Cryopreservation which would be quite expensive and involve more logistics. Thats not to say that it is not used - as Kohl has already outlined that his Tour '08 blood was extracted in (IIRC) September & November of 2007.

But the methods employed for an extraction after the Dauphine (as has been suggested re Contador) & freezing the RBC's longer are different.

So it is likely that anyone saving blood after the DL was using normal blood bags.

 

[El Pistolero]

Yeah. Like we need to pay for the obvious.

I bought it for the Kaproen article, not for the Contador one

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaproen_(cartoonist)

 

[El Pistolero]

Good to hear, any chance you could scan it? What more does it say, even if isn't much, thanks!

Why would it be a satire? Humo never does that.

 

[Barrus]

Good to hear, any chance you could scan it? What more does it say, even if isn't much, thanks!

No scans allowed here

 

[Hematide]

I read the article, it has the part that was made public a few days ago, and also an interview with an anonymous cyclist who claims to be an epo-user and who basically confirms that clenbuterol is sometimes used. Interestingly, the cyclist also notes that when using clenbuterol while during the season, you just have to wait until a doping control, and then use it right afterwards. Because the chance that you are subject to another test in the next 48h is very low (the rider adds "unless your name is Lance Armstrong" )

And perhaps the anonymous source is lying, but I'm sure humo wouldn't make up something like this.

 

[JPM London]

... Because the chance that you are subject to another test in the next 48h is very low (the rider adds "unless your name is Lance Armstrong" )

And then what if you are LA? Take it any time, because you know when the tester comes (unless he's French and is wearing a backpack)?

 

[peloton]

And then what if you are LA? Take it any time, because you know when the tester comes (unless he's French and is wearing a backpack)?

+1

nice spin the LA part...

 

[webvan]

I read the article, it has the part that was made public a few days ago, and also an interview with an anonymous cyclist who claims to be an epo-user and who basically confirms that clenbuterol is sometimes used. Interestingly, the cyclist also notes that when using clenbuterol while during the season, you just have to wait until a doping control, and then use it right afterwards. Because the chance that you are subject to another test in the next 48h is very low (the rider adds "unless your name is Lance Armstrong" )

And perhaps the anonymous source is lying, but I'm sure humo wouldn't make up something like this.

Do they explain why they're following the Contador story so closely? Any hint that the source might be Belgian?

 

[Hematide]

Do they explain why they're following the Contador story so closely? Any hint that the source might be Belgian?

They're probably following Contador closely because they like somewhat controversial/scandalous subjects, for example also reporting on recent paedophilia scandals in the catholic church. Also, some amount of sports is covered in the magazine. For example, there was an in-depth interview with roy sentjens published a few weeks ago.

No extra hints that the source is Belgian. To me it sounds like the interview is untranslated, but who knows? They only say "a source very close to the astana team"

 

[Merckx index]

RBCs can be stored and reused within 6 weeks under normal refrigeration.

But actually freezing them for reuse longer than this involves Cryopreservation which would be quite expensive and involve more logistics. Thats not to say that it is not used - as Kohl has already outlined that his Tour '08 blood was extracted in (IIRC) September & November of 2007.

But the methods employed for an extraction after the Dauphine (as has been suggested re Contador) & freezing the RBC's longer are different.

So it is likely that anyone saving blood after the DL was using normal blood bags.

My whole point is that the Humo article is probably incorrect. If Kohl was freezing his cells, then presumably Bert was, too. In that case, he would not be withdrawing blood at any time during the racing season. He would not have to, that is one of the main advantages of that procedure. He would be re-infusing during the season, of course, and the anonymous source would be correct about that. For all we know, he learned about the re-infusion, and just assumed, from his own experience, that there must have been a withdrawal a few weeks earlier.

I'll grant you, the refrigerated whole blood scenario explains both the CB and DEHP detected. That's its main attraction. But freezing cells is a safer (in the sense of less likely to be detected) procedure, so I would think an elite rider like Bert, with lots of money, would use it. Also, it should be noted that even when blood is stored for a few weeks refrigerated, frequently the cells are separated from the plasma, then stored with some added fluids. This method, too, would not result in a CB positive following re-infusion, though it would be detected in the DEHP test.

My inclination now is to speculate that Bert is protesting so much because he knows that his method of blood doping, involving separation and freezing of red cells, could not involve significant exposure to either CB or DEHP. But of course he can't explain that.

 

[Anonymous]

I read the article, it has the part that was made public a few days ago, and also an interview with an anonymous cyclist who claims to be an epo-user and who basically confirms that clenbuterol is sometimes used. Interestingly, the cyclist also notes that when using clenbuterol while during the season, you just have to wait until a doping control, and then use it right afterwards. Because the chance that you are subject to another test in the next 48h is very low (the rider adds "unless your name is Lance Armstrong" )

And perhaps the anonymous source is lying, but I'm sure humo wouldn't make up something like this.

Um, Lance was never tested all that much. The myth of the "most tested athlete" has been thoroughly and completely debunked.

ANYWAY...

From the Matschiner article:

"Clenbuterol in general is something that is quite common in the world of cycling. It's usually orally used on a pretty frequent basis. It's just a guess on my side, but hypothetically, if an athlete takes a very small dose it would help him breathe. The half life is so short that my only guess for a positive case for such a small amount is that he took a little too much."

...uh yea.....it was tainted beef Alberto...tainted beef.

 

[webvan]

They're probably following Contador closely because they like somewhat controversial/scandalous subjects, for example also reporting on recent paedophilia scandals in the catholic church. Also, some amount of sports is covered in the magazine. For example, there was an in-depth interview with roy sentjens published a few weeks ago.

No extra hints that the source is Belgian. To me it sounds like the interview is untranslated, but who knows? They only say "a source very close to the astana team"

Thanks, I still find it odd that they would get the scoop on such a hot case, versus a sports paper/magazine, if there wasn't some type of connection with Belgium, hopefully we'll find out at some point.

 

[python]

No offense but read my post. My point was belgian tv wouldn't TAKE OVER (read "relay") the news, if Humo were a micky mouse magazine. No other media as up to now brought fresh news ( to my knowledge) om who the astana contact might be

no offense, except it, the belgian tv did relay the news, read the article you linked - 'according to Humo magazine'.

 

[mycenos]

My whole point is that the Humo article is probably incorrect. If Kohl was freezing his cells, then presumably Bert was, too.

This seems like a jump in logic to me. What if Contador's body adjusts quicker to a whole-blood transfer? What if he started doping with refrigerated blood, and saw no need to switch to the freezer method later? What about the logistics of traveling with a portable freezer, when it's so much easier to explain a cooler?

We are talking about a sport where riders routinely pin on the number 13 upside down to avoid bad luck--logic doesn't always triumph. For that matter, we're also talking specifically about an elite cyclist who can afford the best agent in the business, and yet employs his brother instead. So I think it's well possible that he might stick with an older method of doping if it's always worked for him.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Wrt Hamilton, the issue is not whether transfusion took place. The issue is when the blood used for transfusion was withdrawn. Again, if red cells are frozen, the blood can be withdrawn at any convenient time, so presumably during the off-season. The transfusion occurs just before a major race.

You don't get it, Hamilton WITHDREW blood post Dauphine.

 

[Cobblestones]

Maybe it was a last-minute adjustment of plans. He could have planned out the season with frozen, spun bags of RBCs which he prepared in the off season. But somehow he felt during the DL that he needed an extra bit to win the TdF. So he takes out another pint after the DL, maybe supported by some EPO microdosing and Clen to slim down. Since that blood would be used within ~4 weeks, maybe he thought it not necessary to spin and freeze it (which is quite a bit of a procedure). It could be so simple as that he thought not worthwhile to first go to wherever he has his centrifuge set up, then freeze it, and then somehow bring it back to the TdF in a frozen bag. Maybe from a logistics point of view, it was simply easier to use whole blood just in this instance.

 

[Merckx index]

This seems like a jump in logic to me. What if Contador's body adjusts quicker to a whole-blood transfer? What if he started doping with refrigerated blood, and saw no need to switch to the freezer method later? What about the logistics of traveling with a portable freezer, when it's so much easier to explain a cooler?

We are talking about a sport where riders routinely pin on the number 13 upside down to avoid bad luck--logic doesn't always triumph. For that matter, we're also talking specifically about an elite cyclist who can afford the best agent in the business, and yet employs his brother instead. So I think it's well possible that he might stick with an older method of doping if it's always worked for him.

We can't rule that out, and as I said, the older method can explain both the CB positive and the presence of DEHP in his system. Obviously, I'm not privy to what Bert does. But freezing has the enormous advantage of not requiring regular blood withdrawals during the racing season. You withdraw blood once or twice during the offseason, when you can afford to be a little weak for a few weeks.

Using refrigerated blood involves regular withdrawal/re-infusion cycles during the season that increases the chances of getting caught. A few years ago, before the passport was developed, blood doping was almost impossible to detect. All a rider had to worry about was keeping his HT below 50%. But now he has to pay attention to other parameters like reticulocyte levels. Hence the evidence that riders are lowering the amounts withdrawn/transfused to 150 ml., and Floyd's testimony that EPO is used to bring reticulocyte levels up (they are suppressed by blood doping).

A rider who uses frozen cells still has to worry about these things, but he worries less, because he's performing fewer manipulations. He only has to transfuse before a major race he wants to do well in, which will probably be only 3-4 times a season. In contrast, a rider using refrigerated blood has to withdraw and transfuse every few weeks, probably beginning in January, and continuing until he has no more races on his schedule. Scheduling has to be done very carefully so it doesn't interfere with performance, so that it can be done when least likely to attract attention, and so on.

You mentioned carrying a freezer as opposed to a refrigerator. I don't think that comes into play. A rider can store frozen cells in his home or anywhere else that affords privacy. When he goes to a race, he can thaw the cells and store them refrigerated for a few days. In fact, the actual transfusion process is exactly the same. So a rider accustomed to storing refrigerated blood will see no disadvantages at all to freezing. He's transfusing the same way he did before. The only thing that has changed is that he doesn't have to keep withdrawing every few weeks.

That seems to me like a no-brainer. It's so much easier and more convenient, why not do it?