Astana rider details Contador's doping practices

[Tyler'sTwin]

A rider who uses frozen cells still has to worry about these things, but he worries less, because he's performing fewer manipulations. He only has to transfuse before a major race he wants to do well in, which will probably be only 3-4 times a season. In contrast, a rider using refrigerated blood has to withdraw and transfuse every few weeks, probably beginning in January, and continuing until he has no more races on his schedule. Scheduling has to be done very carefully so it doesn't interfere with performance, so that it can be done when least likely to attract attention, and so on.

This is totally baseless. There's no reason he'd have to withdraw and transfuse every few weeks throughout the season. That is overly complicated and serves no purpose.

 

[thehog]

Why would it be a satire? Humo never does that.

Humo is tabloid! Looks like Contas threat to sue shut them up. What a joke.

 

[thehog]

wtf, are you serious or is this a lame attempt at humour?

Are you from Belgium? That country has a lot of explaining to do. Absolutely disgusting what went on there and the political cover ups.

 

[soulor]

Humo is tabloid! Looks like Contas threat to sue shut them up. What a joke.

Am I missing something here? I haven't seen the print version of the article and the one forum member who has says there is little difference in substance between that and the online version (which is still there). What do you know that he does not?

 

[Beech Mtn]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but here's my guess on what happened:

Isn't Clen also taken to breathe better immediately, not just to lose weight? Remember the lousy weather on the Tourmalet, and how close Alberto and Andy were on GC at that point? 2nd Tourmalet day was going to be important, and AC needed to not be suffering breathing issues due to the crappy weather.

So AC had a dope test the morning of the rest day. I think the morning was the blood test that showed no clen (but did show plasticizers, I think). Immediately after the dope test, he could have taken a very small dose of clen to help with breathing, not expecting to be tested again until the following morning, when it should be cleared out of his system. Unbeknownst to him, however, he gets a surprise second dope test the evening of the rest day. This is the urine test where the clen shows up.

Now maybe they thought the small amount wouldn't show up in the lab (and it likely would not have, if a different lab had been used), or maybe they didn't expect another dope test until the following morning when this small dose would be out of the system.

I think he probably took the clen directly on the rest day, and did not get it through a transfusion. I do think he likely had a small transuion, which is where the plasticizer test shows up.

HOWEVER - I don't like the fact that only Alberto's plasticizer results have been leaked. There had to have been a lot of guys tested who had small transfusions too. Were they not tested? Was Alberto singled out once he popped positive for clen?

Either every sample needs to be checked for plasticizers and sanctioned the same, or it needs to be ignored for all, including Alberto. But AC does have to be held responsible for failing the clen test.

On the meat issue-
I don't believe the tainted beef story, but I do know that the Astana chef brought special, acorn-fed hams from Spain to feed the team during the race. It was supposed to be a high quality meat. I remember back during the Tour reading an interview/profile of the Astana chef. The guy didn't actually work for Astana, but was someone Alberto knew and had gotten him the job of coming to the Tour to cook for the team. The riders were eating the Spanish ham throughout the early part of the race at least. The chef commented that the Kazakhs liked it too, and that he would probably run out and have to send back to Spain for more ham. I've looked for this interview since the story broke, but now can't find it. I do remember reading it back during the Tour, before this doping story broke.

 

[Adamastor]

Humo is tabloid! Looks like Contas threat to sue shut them up. What a joke.

I've heard this one before. Where was it? Yes, l'Equipe is a tabloid too, it was Armstrong's explanation for their article about the big lie.

Are you from Belgium? That country has a lot of explaining to do. Absolutely disgusting what went on there and the political cover ups.

I apologise to all posters for losing my time and theirs about arguing with this guy...1,889 posts since July 2009? Have they all been like this?

A disgrace.

Hog, this was my last reaction to your racist and extremist posts. Ciaooooo

 

[Arnout]

Isn't Clen also taken to breathe better immediately, not just to lose weight? Remember the lousy weather on the Tourmalet, and how close Alberto and Andy were on GC at that point? 2nd Tourmalet day was going to be important, and AC needed to not be suffering breathing issues due to the crappy weather.

Actually the weather that day was the best weather in the whole Tour for Contador. He has a form of hay fever and there's nothing better than rainy weather to solve that.

 

[Cobblestones]

HOWEVER - I don't like the fact that only Alberto's plasticizer results have been leaked. There had to have been a lot of guys tested who had small transfusions too. Were they not tested? Was Alberto singled out once he popped positive for clen?

Either every sample needs to be checked for plasticizers and sanctioned the same, or it needs to be ignored for all, including Alberto. But AC does have to be held responsible for failing the clen test.

I had this discussion before, so instead of repeating it, let me ask a question:

Which test result was acknowledged by the UCI? Clen, platicizer or both? I think it was only clen. So, while the UCI may or may not have results of plasticizer tests for many riders, they have not made public any of them, not even Contador's. Probably because the test is not (yet) validated to give an AAF (which is a legal, not a scientific term; scientifically, the test is just fine).

The person who leaked the results to the press probably had in his possession only Contador's results. That's all he could leak. He couldn't leak Schleck's result, Cuddles results, Menchov's results, LA's results and so on, because he didn't have them (likely because all the samples are anonymous, except for Contador's which had to be decoded because of the clen positive and the breaking of the B sample.)

So, anyway, I think all the complaining about Contador being singled out by the plasticizer test is missing the point. There's no indication he ever was singled out.


Ok, with that said, one point on which the reports are conflicted (likely because the phthalate results were never acknowledged by the UCI or any official whatsoever), is on which day the suspect phthalate concentrations were measured. Some say the day before, some say the same day as the clen positive. But then, clen was found in two consecutive samples which just adds to the confusion.

In fact, we know the times at which residues of clen and phthalates end up in the urine are different. The former is in the order of 24-36 hours, the latter only 6-12 hours. So even if both chemicals were administered at the same time, one of them might show up earlier in tests.

So, I still believe in the 'transfusion theory' of how clen ended up in his system. A good point is made that Contador, just as Kohl, might have relied more on packed cells than on whole blood, which would shoot down the 'transfusion theory' because clen residues would be spun off with the plasma. But the source talks about whole blood, not packed RBCs. This could in fact make sense because of the short timeframe between extraction and re-injection which would make packing and freezing unnecessary (and it would also explain the phthalate concentrations, which apparently would be lower when transfusing packed RBCs, stored at freezing temperatures).

I think in this regard, the source adds a lot to the case because it tells us that whole blood, not packed RBCs were used. So far everything still fits very well together.

 

[Merckx index]

This is totally baseless. There's no reason he'd have to withdraw and transfuse every few weeks throughout the season. That is overly complicated and serves no purpose.

You have to do this because of the limited shelf life of refrigerated blood. Let's say you have a big race coming up in April. You withdraw blood in March, store it, and re-infuse it before your race.

After that initial withdrawal, you might let your body recover naturally. But that takes a couple of weeks, and presumably you want to be able to train then. Taking EPO can help restore your HT, but it's faster if you have blood on hand to transfuse, to replace what you take out. That blood you have from a previous withdrawal, as I explained in an earlier post.

Then what happens after your race in April? You have another big race coming up in May or whenever. You want to transfuse for that. Where are you going to get the blood? You couldn't have withdrawn that blood in March, because it doesn't last that long in cold storage. Again, the solution to the problem is to keep withdrawing and re-infusing throughout the season. As I explained in an earlier post, in effect you are using your body to store blood, since you can't store it for long outside your body (unless you separate red cells and freeze).

 

[Merckx index]

You don't get it, Hamilton WITHDREW blood post Dauphine.

OK, but remember this was back in 2003 and 2004, pre-passport days. I'm not at all sure the freezing technique was used at that time. The passport has necessitated that riders blood dope more carefully, and freezing, by allowing the riders to withdraw less often and generally out of season, can be an important part of the strategy.

And I as I emphasized before, I don't know who uses it now. But if Kohl does--and buying and keeping a centrifuge is kind of a waste of time and money if you don't--I'd be very surprised if more accomplished riders don't.

 

[Elagabalus]

Humo is tabloid! Looks like Contas threat to sue shut them up. What a joke.

Really? Last week you said it was a "parody magazine". Apparently, you have upgraded it to the level of tabloid for this week. So which is it?

And whilst upon my soap box...

I realize this is an internet forum but your "I have proclaimed it thusly, so it must be true!!!" style posts (senza citations or links) are generally not going to convince us of the validity of your arguments.

 

[Elagabalus]

Are you from Belgium? That country has a lot of explaining to do. Absolutely disgusting what went on there and the political cover ups.

Atta'boy, theHog!! Stick and move, buddy, stick and move ...

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

You have to do this because of the limited shelf life of refrigerated blood. Let's say you have a big race coming up in April. You withdraw blood in March, store it, and re-infuse it before your race.

After that initial withdrawal, you might let your body recover naturally. But that takes a couple of weeks, and presumably you want to be able to train then. Taking EPO can help restore your HT, but it's faster if you have blood on hand to transfuse, to replace what you take out. That blood you have from a previous withdrawal, as I explained in an earlier post.

What you fail to take into consideration is that the refrigerated blood is gonna lose 25% of cells so you would have to compensate by microdosing EPO to raise your htc before every extraction/infusion. Now, given the relatively small amounts of blood mentioned, wouldn't it be much simpler to just take some EPO to increase your crit slightly before withdrawing blood (thus avoiding a loss of RBC's below your natural level) less than 6 weeks before the race rather than doing a cycle of extraction-reinfusion-microdosing-extraction-reinfusion every month from january?

Then what happens after your race in April? You have another big race coming up in May or whenever. You want to transfuse for that. Where are you going to get the blood? You couldn't have withdrawn that blood in March, because it doesn't last that long in cold storage. Again, the solution to the problem is to keep withdrawing and re-infusing throughout the season. As I explained in an earlier post, in effect you are using your body to store blood, since you can't store it for long outside your body (unless you separate red cells and freeze).

So what would your cheater do? He extracts in january, waits for the body to recover then does the extraction/infusion cycle until the race in april when he's gonna have to only infuse and not withdraw if he wants a boost. So now what? He's now in the same situation as my boy who withdrew in march and infused right before the prestigious race in april. Both are high on red cells but will have lost a significant percentage of the ones transfused during storage and during the race if it's a stage race and neither has a refill in the fridge.

But I don't understand why one would bother transfusing 150 ml except for use late in a GT. Why not just microdose EPO or something similar? I mean, such a small increase in RBC mass would only result in a one point increase in crit even if we disregard the plasma-expansion that comes with EPO use... and I cannot imagine it would cause f'd up retics.

 

[Merckx index]

The 25% figure may be thrown around by some, it's pretty controversial, and obviously depends on how long the blood is stored--which of course is a good argument for withdrawing/transfusing more frequently.

As your post indicates, there are different ways of doing it. If your schedule--and your confidence in beating the EPO test--are such that you think you can follow a withdrawal without a re-infusion, maybe you can do it.

But it's not easy. Just as re-infusion inhibits reticulocyte formation, withdrawal stimulates it. If you add EPO to accelerate it further, you're flirting with danger in the passport, as well as a positive EPO test. Moreover, the EPO doesn't work instantaneously, so you spend a while with a reduced HT, putting you at further risk. True, by withdrawing/re-infusing in relatively small amounts you reduce the risk, but remember, a key parameter in the passport is the HT/reticulocyte ratio. If you withdraw, then use EPO to accelerate replenishment of cells, you are increasing the denominator while the numerator is decreased, so there is an extra-large effect in a parameter that throws up red flags.

If, OTOH, instead of EPO you simply re-infuse previously stored blood, your HT level doesn't change (because the blood is just replacing what was taken out) and your reticulocyte level doesn't change (no change in HT, so no effect on reticulocyte synthesis). Except for the couple of hours or whatever it takes to withdraw blood and re-infuse, you are completely safe from any possible test.

But even if you want to go with that more exposed to testers route, you are still faced with withdrawals for every race-related re-infusion.Freezing cells allows you to avoid this hassle. You could withdraw a unit of blood once or twice during the off-season, and store it in half-unit lots. Whenever a big race comes up, you thaw out one of these lots and infuse. No need to withdraw at any time during the season. I'm not a racer, but it sure sounds easier to me.

With the caveat, of course, that you have to know what you're doing. You have to get the glycerol concentration right, the temperature right (I don't think your freezer at home would work), and so on. But for riders who have lots of money, it should have a lot of appeal.

 

[Cal_Joe]

Really? Last week you said it was a "parody magazine". Apparently, you have upgraded it to the level of tabloid for this week. So which is it?

And whilst upon my soap box...

I realize this is an internet forum but your "I have proclaimed it thusly, so it must be true!!!" style posts (senza citations or links) are generally not going to convince us of the validity of your arguments.

A well known issue here. Most ignore, some have found this site - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Village_idiot

And please, try to ignore the vast history of Contador fanboy posting by your new friend - he is going through the many stages of denial path and I don't think it would be kind to quote his previous posts.

 

[rata de sentina]

I realize this is an internet forum but your "I have proclaimed it thusly, so it must be true!!!" style posts (senza citations or links) are generally not going to convince us of the validity of your arguments.

The hog is not alone. You should know who you can engage in discussion and who you can't (or shouldn't). Otherwise your wasting your time. I don't mind the hog, you get used to the scenery.

 

[flicker]

I do not know about what you are talking about here. You may want to make sure you consult with a doctor before you try anything here. It could be dangerous.

 

[Cobblestones]

Just as re-infusion inhibits reticulocyte formation, withdrawal stimulates it. If you add EPO to accelerate it further, you're flirting with danger in the passport, as well as a positive EPO test.

I believe the above is incorrect as far as the passport is concerned. Remember that the limits are on crit (50%) and off score which spikes when you're off the EPO (as you might be after a re-injection). Basically the off-score limit is triggered when you have a high crit and low retics which is the opposite of what you would have after withdrawal of blood. As I understand it, there's no passport limit on how high the retic count might get. But of course, then there's the Pechstein case. And, if you use too much EPO or similar stuff, you might simply test positive. Ok, I admit, I was nitpicking.

 

[Scatto]

reliable

Humo is quite reliable. It may be not for people who are unable to separate the jokes from the facts. Obviously it wouldn't be a magazine if they weren't looking for scoops.

 

[webvan]

What I still don't get is why THEY got the scoop and not a sports newspaper or magazine. There has to be a Belgian connection.

Anyway thanks to them, it's now even harder for the UCI to try to sweep this under the carpet.

 

[roundabout]

sports newspapers and/or magazines can ride off a cliff for all i care. they are too close to the governing body to do any real digging

 

[Cobblestones]

Let's not forget who had the initial scoop on Landis. It was this little, unimportant cycling rag called WSJ.

 

[webvan]

An American newspaper and Landis is American, I can't imagine a "non-Belgian" spilling the beans to Humo...

 

[Cobblestones]

An American newspaper and Landis is American, I can't imagine a "non-Belgian" spilling the beans to Humo...

I agree. Sounds reasonable.

 

[shouldawouldacoulda]

An American newspaper and Landis is American, I can't imagine a "non-Belgian" spilling the beans to Humo...

Someone previously mentioned Astana DS Laurenzo Lapage is Belgian. I would also guess a non-Belgian rider living in Belgium or even the Netherlands could have been the Humo source. And who knows how many other Astana staff may be Belgian amongst soigneurs, doctors and mechs? There is a tremendous amount of Belgian technical and medical staff floating around the ProTour.

Where is Astana's service course now? Italy?