Bin Laden dead

[patricknd]

Just about everyone in the US is just a few generations from being an expat.
Did they not have what it takes to make it in their own country?

obviously, those other countries weren't up to our standards

 

[rhubroma]

I believe in a such thing as absolutes. You don't. You probably engage in moral equivalence which is your prerogative. I don't have any desire to attempt to convince you otherwise.

Nuances are great for people who are too cowardly to take a firm stand and say enough is enough.

Taking a firm position is great it's really quite liberating.

You should tell some 9-11 victim or some blind and maimed Tanzanian about all your sophisticated nuances. They won't resonate one iota.

They're great in university faculty meetings or amongst a bunch loser expats who don't have what it takes to make it in their own country.

No true cowardliness is to not have the courage to be objective enough to see beyond the nicely convenient and over-simplified analysis that makes one the easiest pray to others ideology. Not only is what you say not true, but history has proven time and time again that it is at times flat out dangerous. When people like yourself begin to realize that the "absolute" is not to be found within a given society, or creed, or patriotic sentiment, but is merely an alibi for the mentaly lazy and easily manipulated, then I think we will be collectively one step closer toward being more civilized as human beings.

The way you talk, frankly, is also why America as the bearer of advanced civilization and moral consistancy is not very convincing.

PS: And what should I tell the people you mentioned? That Osama's death, while I am grateful for the memory of your loved ones and the partial closure it must give you, probably doesn't mean much in this so called War Against Terror? Because this is what I said.

Perhaps you should think about what you would say to the tens of thousands of civilian families in Iraq whose brothers, sisters, sons, daughters, mothers and fathers, etc. were blown to pieces by some errant US bomb. Or why we have played arms supplier to some of the worst regimes and dictators whenever realpolitik made it politically expedient to do so, only to turn against them when opportunity and new economic and political strategies no longer made it so. I'm sure all the people who lost kin or friend in the bombings and masacres will be quite understanding about your discourses in the absolute.

 

[Spare Tyre]

"Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, and toughness multiplies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction."

- Martin Luther King Jr

 

[andy1234]

I believe in a such thing as absolutes. You don't. You probably engage in moral equivalence which is your prerogative. I don't have any desire to attempt to convince you otherwise.

Nuances are great for people who are too cowardly to take a firm stand and say enough is enough.

Taking a firm position is great it's really quite liberating.

You should tell some 9-11 victim or some blind and maimed Tanzanian about all your sophisticated nuances. They won't resonate one iota.

They're great in university faculty meetings or amongst a bunch loser expats who don't have what it takes to make it in their own country.

I knew you reminded me of someone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMHDBL7CNA4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[MD FACG FACP]

It couldn't have happened if the country hadn't been distracted. Brooksly Braun ran head on into Phil and Wendy Gramm..

It was during Clinton's first term. Both parties were against regulating CDOs.
There is a film about here, if you have Netflix you can stream it. Also the recent film "Inside Job" is very good.

 

[MD FACG FACP]

"Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, and toughness multiplies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction."

- Martin Luther King Jr

Agree, we should have captured bin Laden and thrown him a big party !

An eye for an eye

- The Bible

 

[redtreviso]

It was during Clinton's first term. Both parties were against regulating CDOs.
There is a film about here, if you have Netflix you can stream it. Also the recent film "Inside Job" is very good.

It was the Gramm's baby though.. It took a downturn in the economy for it to become a problem.. When Clinton was president there were better investments.

 

[Astana1]

I knew you reminded me of someone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMHDBL7CNA4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

You guys remind me of a special someone too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4viDfA-Rmng

 

[redtreviso]

""Beloved character actor Osama bin Laden, star of TV's "Fox News", dies age 54""

--from twitter

 

[Astana1]

No true cowardliness is to not have the courage to be objective enough to see beyond the nicely convenient and over-simplified analysis that makes one the easiest pray to others ideology. Not only is what you say not true, but history has proven time and time again that it is at times flat out dangerous. When people like yourself begin to realize that the "absolute" is not to be found within a given society, or creed, or patriotic sentiment, but is merely an alibi for the mentaly lazy and easily manipulated, then I think we will be collectively one step closer toward being more civilized as human beings.

The way you talk, frankly, is also why America as the bearer of advanced civilization and moral consistancy is not very convincing.

PS: And what should I tell the people you mentioned? That Osama's death, while I am grateful for the memory of your loved ones and the partial closure it must give you, probably doesn't mean much in this so called War Against Terror? Because this is what I said.

Perhaps you should think about what you would say to the tens of thousands of civilian families in Iraq whose brothers, sisters, sons, daughters, mothers and fathers, etc. were blown to pieces by some errant US bomb. Or why we have played arms supplier to some of the worst regimes and dictators whenever realpolitik made it politically expedient to do so, only to turn against them when opportunity and new economic and political strategies no longer made it so. I'm sure all the people who lost kin or friend in the bombings and masacres will be quite understanding about your discourses in the absolute.

Trying to make the US the moral equivalent of Osama? That's so 2002. You're clearly out to lunch.

 

[Cobblestoned]

It wasn't the regular army that got him anyway, it was covert ops. We could have got him sooner or later (probably sooner) without any regular army in Afghanistan and certainly without ever setting boots in Iraq, we'd be at least a trillion bucks less in debt as well.

One should think that, yes.

But hey, Saddam had all the terrrible weapons of mass destruction, hidden under earth, all that heroic and very high tech equipped soldiers from Saddam's Republican Guard, while there was also the danger that he had nuclear weapons, hidden under earth.
Mr. Rumsfeld explained that to us very detailed.
Just a coincidence that there was nothing than rusty vehicles, soldiers running for their life, and that Saddam was the only thing that was hidden under earth.
Who could have known that ?

While in Afghanistan the chance was very high, that one of those ten thousands of bombs would hit Osama or some Talibans. That was reasonable, because they never move and would never meet somewhere else.
Also, in that way, US army could simultaneously flatten some grounds to built that pipeline and make area peaceful, without pipeline beeing in danger.

And let's not forget, let's not forget that some wars are the best way for economic boosts.
That was all very reasonable, reasonable like making the choice to just let Atta and friends do their thing.

This agression will not stand.

 

[Archibald]

It wasn't the regular army that got him anyway, it was covert ops. We could have got him sooner or later (probably sooner) without any regular army in Afghanistan and certainly without ever setting boots in Iraq, we'd be at least a trillion bucks less in debt as well.

Clinton had him in his sights, but refused to pull the trigger. This was back in the 90's...

I still don't think you've got him. There's more backroom sh*t going on here than we realise.

 

[blutto]

...given the circumstances (...the topic and the usually incendiary potential of this forum) this has been a great thread...congrats to all that have contributed so meaningfully...

...I sincerely hope that it will not be destroyed by internecine warfare and veer away from the fruitful discussion that it has been up to this point...

...this is potentially one of those moments in history where events cause time to seemingly stop...a great time to look where we have been, take our bearings and again move forward...and if the right steps are taken maybe we can slowly make our way out the morass we find ourselves in...

...this discussion, though admittedly in a small way, gives me hope there is the insight and the will to make those right steps...hey, Superman has recently renounced his US citizenship in an attempt to perhaps reflect a more global less strictly nationalistic perspective...and we all know the dangers of rampant nationalism...

...again my thanks to all...

Cheers

blutto

 

[redtreviso]

"""We thank President Bush for having made the right calls to set up this victory."""---Sarah Palin(R)


"""I commend President Obama who has followed the vigilance of President Bush in bringing Bin Laden to justice."--- Eric Cantor (R)

 

[patricknd]

"""We thank President Bush for having made the right calls to set up this victory."""---Sarah Palin(R)


"""I commend President Obama who has followed the vigilance of President Bush in bringing Bin Laden to justice."--- Eric Cantor (R)

i think it's refreshing to see some honesty in government for a change

 

[redtreviso]

i think it's refreshing to see some honesty in government for a change

and Ollie North really did warn Al Gore about Osama bin Laden...........

 

[rhubroma]

Trying to make the US the moral equivalent of Osama? That's so 2002. You're clearly out to lunch.

Spoken by one with a firm grip on reality. Clearly your intelligence would resolve all the problems of this world. If only you could also see those which are not merely cozy and reassuring to your lil'provincial safe-haven.

In my world I see ten years past, 919,967 dead in two and a half wars and 1,188,263,000,000 dollars later: and now the USA has killed Bin Laden. Excuse me, but can you understand why I'm not throwing a party?

 

[Hmmmmm]

No true cowardliness is to not have the courage to be objective enough to see beyond the nicely convenient and over-simplified analysis that makes one the easiest pray to others ideology. Not only is what you say not true, but history has proven time and time again that it is at times flat out dangerous. When people like yourself begin to realize that the "absolute" is not to be found within a given society, or creed, or patriotic sentiment, but is merely an alibi for the mentaly lazy and easily manipulated, then I think we will be collectively one step closer toward being more civilized as human beings.

The way you talk, frankly, is also why America as the bearer of advanced civilization and moral consistancy is not very convincing.

PS: And what should I tell the people you mentioned? That Osama's death, while I am grateful for the memory of your loved ones and the partial closure it must give you, probably doesn't mean much in this so called War Against Terror? Because this is what I said.

Perhaps you should think about what you would say to the tens of thousands of civilian families in Iraq whose brothers, sisters, sons, daughters, mothers and fathers, etc. were blown to pieces by some errant US bomb. Or why we have played arms supplier to some of the worst regimes and dictators whenever realpolitik made it politically expedient to do so, only to turn against them when opportunity and new economic and political strategies no longer made it so. I'm sure all the people who lost kin or friend in the bombings and masacres will be quite understanding about your discourses in the absolute.

There is a book titled "Blowback" which address the bolded above.

This is a great thread. At least those that have different opinions are not killing each other.

Being a "thinker" with a temper at times, I feel grief at the death of OBL, meaning I feel different things in that this man has had an impact on many people in this world so I feel sorrow at the losses of those he affected personally and some joy in that the man is dead. Yes, joy in his death. I don't have religion hanging over me so death is what it is - the end. But, it is the end for him and possibly the beginning for something else.

 

[Hmmmmm]

Sitting here working from home and flipping between news channels. I hate Fox news with a passion and they just had a news ticker in which they said "blah blah blah....Usama Bin Laden". Interesting mispelling.

 

[andy1234]

You guys remind me of a special someone too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4viDfA-Rmng

Touche.
FWIW, and as I said before, Bin Laden got off more lightly than he deserved.
I just believe that the decision and action should be respected, rather than cheered for like a game show win.

 

[redtreviso]

""Patriotism is truest when it is quiet, the acceptance of civic duty -- never with childish glee.

There was something unseemly about that gathering of college-age Americans outside the White House just before midnight on Sunday, cheering at the news of Osama bin Laden’s death. Some of the kids had draped flags over their shoulders; they chanted “USA, USA, USA.” I doubt there was a true patriot in the bunch.

Patriotism is not the same thing as cheering in the streets when your side wins the Super Bowl. Patriotism is truest and best when it is quiet, the acceptance of civic duty, as a kind of fate—never with childish glee, but with mature resolution. I think of Pat Tillman, sitting alone in a football stadium after September 11th, deciding that he needed to abandon the boyish game that he loved and instead enlist as a soldier.

In the great novels, as in the great American Westerns, the moment when the tyrant or town bully is killed by the townspeople is a solemn moment. Victory over evil requires also a moral compromise. In order to destroy evil, the townspeople must bloody their own hands.""


http://www.alternet.org/world/150808/cheering_a_monster%27s_death_is_not_the_same_as_patriotism/

 

[rhubroma]

There is a book titled "Blowback" which address the bolded above.

This is a great thread. At least those that have different opinions are not killing each other.

Being a "thinker" with a temper at times, I feel grief at the death of OBL, meaning I feel different things in that this man has had an impact on many people in this world so I feel sorrow at the losses of those he affected personally and some joy in that the man is dead. Yes, joy in his death. I don't have religion hanging over me so death is what it is - the end. But, it is the end for him and possibly the beginning for something else.

While I can understand your sentiment of joy, mine has more to do with relief and a rational sense of you reap what you sow toward the criminal.

However, just as I am incapable of experiencing joy for this reason at Bin Laden's death, I realize I am also not able to agonize over every one of those 900 + thousand killed in the wars that followed 9-11 mentioned above, the majority of whom were totally innocent citizens, or whose only crime was to have been victimized by a bloody dictator once armed by the West. However, my lack of joy felt toward the one, is precisely in equal measure (and a sense of honest shame) to not being able to cry over the multitudes of the others, which would otherwise be inhuman.

It's how I define a sense of decency and decorum (and humanity)in my own comportment before a tragedy, on both ends, that should lead to a more sober reflection of the facts than what usually gets pushed in the mass media and fires up the fans easilly looking for a reason to cave into base patriotic sentiments.

And what I find truly dismal and underdeveloped in both mind and in spirit by my party-going and flag waving compatriots, is the complete fanatical enthusiam for the one fact and their aparent total indifference to the other.

 

[blutto]

You guys remind me of a special someone too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4viDfA-Rmng

...really hate to rain on your parade but outside of some rah rah segments of US society most of the world agrees with some version of Churchill's view...and given the historical record and the last decade of US actions he is much righter than not...yes, his is a rather strong statement, but the general thrust of his argument is quite defensible...

Cheers

blutto

 

[VeloCity]

Not sure about the boomerang thing, but "torture" gave us the info needed to track down and kill this criminal. I'm all for it.

How many people would you be willing to have tortured to get it?

 

[VeloCity]

I believe in a such thing as absolutes. You don't. You probably engage in moral equivalence which is your prerogative. I don't have any desire to attempt to convince you otherwise.

Nuances are great for people who are too cowardly to take a firm stand and say enough is enough.

Taking a firm position is great it's really quite liberating.

You should tell some 9-11 victim or some blind and maimed Tanzanian about all your sophisticated nuances. They won't resonate one iota.

They're great in university faculty meetings or amongst a bunch loser expats who don't have what it takes to make it in their own country.

That's about as simple minded as it comes.