Bordry's people interviewed by novitzky folks and Usada

[Oldman]

Oh yeah. Good catch, my bad. Hard to believe they would do something like that....and only 3 cyclists...hmmm

But I digress? Any thoughts so Novistky trying to bring the doping ring down instead of LA? Wasn't Novistky trying to prove there was doping in Baseball more than bring Clemons down?

Yes. He probably spent zero hours watching Roger or Lance (sounds like a porn movie duo) and could give a sh*t about cycling or baseball. He's tasked to find out who's not paying the copyrights on the drugs their selling. His bonus is putting overpaid liars in jail.

 

[Benotti69]

[/B]

Yes. He probably spent zero hours watching Roger or Lance (sounds like a porn movie duo) and could give a sh*t about cycling or baseball. He's tasked to find out who's not paying the copyrights on the drugs their selling. His bonus is putting overpaid liars in jail.

But we might just find out that a lot the PEDsof went through LA, his associates and his alleged connections to certain pharma companies

 

[Berzin]

Could a potential manifestation of this "conspiracy" be that the UCI and their antics get fully drawn into light? If the cycling world can have a portion of those dark corners lit up and although the proceedings are not about them, but perhaps a byproduct could force transparency of this body, and we could see more proper applications of all rules?

Let's focus on the Iron Triangle that I previously mentioned.

1) Armstrong/Dr. Ferarri. The doping ring involves the man who conceptualized the drug program (Ferarri) and the doctors/nurses on hand with the team during training camps and races who administered the drug program, the suppliers of the drugs and the bagmen, meaning the little people who facilitated the pick-up and transport of said doping products and the removal of medical waste.

2) Armstrong/The UCI. The light, as you state, could be shone on this relationship and could very well mean big changes for this bureaucratic entity. The money "donated" by Armstrong I'm sure will be investigated, money that was used to make positive dope tests disappear, and information that was passed from the UCI to US Postal/Discovery team about out-of-competition drug tests. There is also the type of business relationships that flourished between Armstrong and Verbruggen which must be examined. I believe they are business partners in some type of venture in Switzerland. I do not see this investigation flourishing without the corruption coming to light, which would lead to some positive changes at the UCI headquarters.

One that I did not mention, but completes the triangle-

3) Armstrong and the money trail. Not only does this cover the money he gave in increments to the UCI, but the money from the team that was used to purchase the drugs and drug paraphernalia.

 

[eljimberino]

Um, we've known it's about fraud from the beginning, havent we?

 

[BotanyBay]

[/B]

Yes. He probably spent zero hours watching Roger or Lance (sounds like a porn movie duo) and could give a sh*t about cycling or baseball. He's tasked to find out who's not paying the copyrights on the drugs their selling. His bonus is putting overpaid liars in jail.

He's actually tasked with investigating weaknesses in the highly regulated chain of custody of controlled substances. Sometimes that means investigating fraud used to break the legal chain, and OFTEN times means prosecuting those who lie about their roles and or knowledge of such fraud.

I'm interested in knowing why you've chosen to offer such a simplistic characterization of what he does. Do you have any explanation, or was it that you truly had no idea why he gets paid to do what he does?

 

[BotanyBay]

But we might just find out that a lot the PEDsof went through LA, his associates and his alleged connections to certain pharma companies

Since Doctors are not questioned as to why they might order such medications for their clinics (that's the professional latitude they're given... I've mentioned this previously), I seriously doubt Lance would be dumb enough to expose himself to such an extreme liability. But if the doctor gets caught doing dumb things with EPO, it ends 100% with the doctor. The patient retains anonymity according to the law. In the earlier days, these guys just got the drugs from the docs themselves. But the heat's on now. My guess is that the docs are getting the drugs, but they are sourcing the drugs from payoffs they give to the colleagues that work in Oncology, Nephrology (kidney medicine), etc. They're also smuggling it from other black market sources, and they then need "mules" to move it. It would be too easy to expose the fact that an Internal Medicine doctor is ordering mass quantities of EPO, HGH, etc. So the doc needs to source it quietly. They probably get the stuff from a combination of doctors and black market supply.

I'm guessing that Popovych is more of a "mule" than anything else. On the bike, he fetches water bottles. Off the bike, he fetches the "stuff". Perhaps his "Eastern European" (wink) connections make him especially desirable to Johan and Lance? Perhaps he's even more of a pipeline than a mule.

I'm willing to bet money that Popo is/was the main mule.

 

[Oldman]

He's actually tasked with investigating weaknesses in the highly regulated chain of custody of controlled substances. Sometimes that means investigating fraud used to break the legal chain, and OFTEN times means prosecuting those who lie about their roles and or knowledge of such fraud.

I'm interested in knowing why you've chosen to offer such a simplistic characterization of what he does. Do you have any explanation, or was it that you truly had no idea why he gets paid to do what he does?

It was a shot at sarcasm in response to a simplistic question. If you read back in my history I was an early proponent of your description of Novitsky's role and the focus of the investigation. I also like to remind fellow cycling fans that the sport isn't that big a deal.

 

[mwbyrd]

[/B]

Yes. He probably spent zero hours watching Roger or Lance (sounds like a porn movie duo) and could give a sh*t about cycling or baseball. He's tasked to find out who's not paying the copyrights on the drugs their selling. His bonus is putting overpaid liars in jail.

Based on the latest article being published, I'm starting to think this is bigger than Lance. This is probably going all the way up the chain to determine how athletes are getting the drugs and to go after the suppliers. I'm guessing that none of the athletes testimony will go public but will be used privately to bust the doping ring.

Especially with Italy, France, the USA, Germany getting involved. Maybe Novitsky is the guy to do it?

 

[Benotti69]

Since Doctors are not questioned as to why they might order such medications for their clinics (that's the professional latitude they're given... I've mentioned this previously), I seriously doubt Lance would be dumb enough to expose himself to such an extreme liability. But if the doctor gets caught doing dumb things with EPO, it ends 100% with the doctor. The patient retains anonymity according to the law. In the earlier days, these guys just got the drugs from the docs themselves. But the heat's on now. My guess is that the docs are getting the drugs, but they are sourcing the drugs from payoffs they give to the colleagues that work in Oncology, Nephrology (kidney medicine), etc. They're also smuggling it from other black market sources, and they then need "mules" to move it. It would be too easy to expose the fact that an Internal Medicine doctor is ordering mass quantities of EPO, HGH, etc. So the doc needs to source it quietly. They probably get the stuff from a combination of doctors and black market supply.

I'm guessing that Popovych is more of a "mule" than anything else. On the bike, he fetches water bottles. Off the bike, he fetches the "stuff". Perhaps his "Eastern European" (wink) connections make him especially desirable to Johan and Lance? Perhaps he's even more of a pipeline than a mule.

I'm willing to bet money that Popo is/was the main mule.

you are forgetting Armstrong's close connection with Amgen, who make EPOgen......

 

[BotanyBay]

you are forgetting Armstrong's close connection with Amgen, who make EPOgen......

What is this close connection? I've never seen anyone establish one. And Amgen's not that stupid. They're a multi-billion dollar pharma company. They're not going to risk being approved for medicare by opening-up the dope closet to their favorite cycling hero.

Everything I've read in the past several years seems to indicate a rather "underground" style of distribution. He's a user of people, and not one to place himself in a situation where he's taking that kind of personal risk. I think it's more likely too see him being charged for making Popo bring the drugs to him from whatever place they come from, and perhaps an architect of the program within Postal / Astana / RS.

I think this whole case will be a lot grubbier than you're envisioning.

 

[SaftyCyclist]

There is a connection, from the Amgen website...

"also has joined forces with the Lance Armstrong Foundation"
http://wwwext.amgen.com/media/breakaway_stand_behind_you.html

 

[Benotti69]

What is this close connection? I've never seen anyone establish one. And Amgen's not that stupid. They're a multi-billion dollar pharma company. They're not going to risk being approved for medicare by opening-up the dope closet to their favorite cycling hero.

Everything I've read in the past several years seems to indicate a rather "underground" style of distribution. He's a user of people, and not one to place himself in a situation where he's taking that kind of personal risk. I think it's more likely too see him being charged for making Popo bring the drugs to him from whatever place they come from, and perhaps an architect of the program within Postal / Astana / RS.

I think this whole case will be a lot grubbier than you're envisioning.

Was Armstrong not using their medicine for his cancer treatment. He could quite possibly be EPOgenning it through his 'charity' in some form. He could well be having it sent from Amgen to eastern europe and having Popo bring it back.

when people break laws and rules they always make mistakes, the authorities look for those mistakes.

The authorities only have to get lucky once. the outlaw has to be lucky all the time not to get caught.

 

[dancing on pedals]

I don't think discussing the contents of a book without even quoting it infringes copyright law anywhere, and finding English-language books on a topic like cycling in a public library around here might be harder than you think.

Thank you very much. I actually wasn't aware anyone had given that conspiracy theory much thought, it was something I remembered reading but I'm not sure where I got it from. I'll put it in my "probably not" list.

The biggest conspiracy theory at the time was that Pantani had been stitched up by the bookmakers of Italy (read Mafia) because they could not unload the "housewive's bets" to any other area and stood to loose millions. Why else would anyone allow Gotti (of all people) to win?
Rendell's book is a passionate affair which he admitted on BBC radio, after its publication, that he got too involved with in the final chapters. I would agree with his assesment, but think it perfectly illustrates the choas and passion that was Pantani.
I would highly reccomend it, and would judge Rendell to be rubbing shoulders with Geoffrey Nicholson as one of the best cycling authors ever -(with a nod to Londres)
thanks.
the mafia theory is not touched upon in the book as far as i remember -that is from my own recollections -

 

[BotanyBay]

Was Armstrong not using their medicine for his cancer treatment.

Sure, the hospital sources that. That's an ironic coincidence, not evidence of a doping connection to Amgen.

He could quite possibly be EPOgenning it through his 'charity' in some form. He could well be having it sent from Amgen to eastern europe and having Popo bring it back.

OR, an unrecognized Popo just walks into a pharmacy in a country with more lenient laws on the chain of custody, buys it, sticks it in his car, drives to Lance's apartment and offloads. Lance tips him $50 for being a good caddy and hands him an old pair of Sheryl Crow's underwear for kicks.

Why would Lance risk getting implicated through an internal audit at Amgen when he can just depend on an under-the-radar watercarrier like Popo? Popo can prolly buy the stuff legally in the Ukraine with cash and never use his name.

Heck, I could go to Tijuana Mexico right now and buy HGH and EPO. If I got caught by customs at the border, I'd just be an anonymous schmuck. Lance can't risk that, so he's got mules for that. The kind of guys like Floyd who he knows he can control.

 

[BotanyBay]

There is a connection, from the Amgen website...

"also has joined forces with the Lance Armstrong Foundation"
http://wwwext.amgen.com/media/breakaway_stand_behind_you.html

I hope you can do better than this, because right now, this is the weakest link.