British Doctor claims he doped 150 sports stars including Br

[Cannibal72]

Re: Re:

Cameron and Clegg

yeah, i know lib dems turfed, and Bojo was never given the armchair ride...

but, in Australia on a football, australian rules football forum, we had nicknamed the Oxbridge two, 'the smoothskinned boys".

some serious antipodean wildean drollery right there.

what college were they out of at Oxford anyhow? anyone?

Cameron was at Brasenose Oxford, Clegg was at Robinson Cambridge (Osborne was at Magdalen Oxford; I know someone who was there with him, and apparently he was already a smarmy ****.)

yeah, we would call him a smarmy kernt[sic/phonetics] too in Australia, bit like the current PM of Australia, and George was the opposition leader about 12 years back wasnt he. Assume he was Eton or Harrow or Rugby or Westminster

Sir Humphrey won a classical scholarship to Winchester College before reading Classics at Baillie College, Oxford, where he got a First.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fictional_Oxford_colleges


#aristocracy
#MuscularChristiansanythingbutreligious

#snobbishness

Sir Mark Spencer, special advisor to the Prime Minister: [intending to dupe Hacker into taking a thankless job] But Sir Humphrey Appleby is bound to tell Hacker he’d be crazy to take it on.

Sir Arnold Robinson, Cabinet Secretary: Yes. “Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes”, I can hear him say. “Beware of Greeks bearing gifts”, roughly translated. Though Humphrey would have put it in English for Hacker’s benefit. Hacker went to the LSE, you know.

Sir Mark Spencer: So did I.

Sir Arnold Robinson: Oh, I *am* sorry.

(Oh and on Boris: I believ his father was an EU official, so he spent a lot of his early life in Brussels, and apparently their family life was...strange to say the least. Cameron and Boris were apparently rivals at Eton; good to see how rationa and mature our politics is.)

Being serious though, what surprises me in the limited coverage of what Bonar said is the lack of attention given to evading tests. Maybe he said stuff that hasn't been reported, but he was dishing out some very detectable substances, and he doesn't seem on the surface to be talking about testing. It all seems a bit amateurish.

Your error is in assuming doping and evading tests is hard. It's not without reason that riders seldom get caught, yet we know due to admissions that they did dope. Due tot the small dosages the detection window is smaller than people think and even when shizzle hits the fan you can always try the Williams/Armstrong method (with less theatrics^^) as a last ditch measure.

In a few days of research I could come up with a scheme that will get you past most tests and Bonar might not be the best example of the medical profession, the guy at least went to university to do a medicine study, so you'd think he could do the same thing a bit better.

Surely multimillionaire sportsmen and women could do a bit better than this goon?

Most athletes are piss-poor. Note that I do not think a Sky rider will be caught (though it's not outside the realm of possibilities considering the idiocy around sport). I also do not know Bonar is cheap (also something I doubt^^).

Doping in sport is not just Ferrari, it's also riders using over the counter stuff, back street adresses where they store blood (though I'd say that's in the past due to humanplasma/puerto), riders injecting unknown stuff, soigneurs "helping" athletes. Reading it usually strikes me as a horror idea of taking big medical risks. Who would atually tap/store blood with Fuentes? Chances of something going wrong were definitely not zero.

It's not completely rational.

exactmundo.

It's also why teams like Sky hire people like Leinders: to make sure their athletes don't glow. It's clear that some athletes will go get PEDs on their own using people like Bonar.

The doping case itself will go nowhere for several reasons (truth of the claims is most certainly part of that, but hardly the only obstacle^^).

that would depend on what else the ST have up their sleeves, wouldn't it. Some posters have suggested there's more to come.

I believe that now the vast majority of athletes are doping individually, possibly with microdosing taking place at the team level. I think the era of sophisticated team programs is over, with teams - as you say - mostly involved in keeping the dope hidden.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

Why not. Everyone knows that true TDF talent potential reveals itself in the TP.

I would laugh out loud the day a track rider wins the Tour, that would be unbelievable

Had already happened before Wiggo.

Indeed. The poster above has a short memory. Lucien PetitBreton won it in 1907, having started life as a track cyclist

Lemond as well.

??????????????

 

[sniper]

Cannibal72: I believe that now the vast majority of athletes are doping individually, possibly with microdosing taking place at the team level. I think the era of sophisticated team programs is over, with teams - as you say - mostly involved in keeping the dope hidden.

I think we are in the era of sophisticated team programs.
sure, USPS style team doping is part of the past. But that wasn't very sophisticated, was it.

And it's not necessarily a matter of either/or.
There seems to be no clear dividing line between 'team level' doping and 'individual' doping.
if you look at the people teams like sky and garmin have hired over the years, you gotta assume they're actively helping their riders to gear up.
Take Weltz at Garmin, or Yates at Sky. Those two guys are old school fixers, nothing more nothing less.
Coaches like Knaven, De Jongh, Wegelius, Julich, Cioni, all 'known' dopers, and all hired for one purpose: they know particularly well how to gear up for the big races and avoid testing. Guys like Leinders and San Millan do the rest, they close the gate, so to say: make sure no one glows, and pull riders who do.
In addition, we see Sky and Garmin collaborating with various sports science labs.
Which means only one thing.

You make a good point about the microdosing being done in-house.
It could explain why Garmin hired Gonzalez Haro, a phlebotomist, for instance.

And yes, riders will additionally look for help outside of the team structure.
Hesjedal with William Petty, for instance, the anti-aging doctor on Hawaii.
Or Froome and a bunch of others with Stephane Bermon.
Or Millar with Cecchini.

 

[Taxus4a]

This is like if I said I have doped lot of sport people. which is his credibility? We knows soccer player and other port dope, but we have just some words in this case.

He could do that for publicity, to try to get clients, so he named succesfull people in the sport, or it could be another interest for people using him.

 

[Cannibal72]

Re:

Cannibal72: I believe that now the vast majority of athletes are doping individually, possibly with microdosing taking place at the team level. I think the era of sophisticated team programs is over, with teams - as you say - mostly involved in keeping the dope hidden.

I think we are in the era of sophisticated team programs.
sure, USPS style team doping is part of the past. But that wasn't very sophisticated, was it.

And it's not necessarily a matter of either/or.
There seems to be no clear dividing line between 'team level' doping and 'individual' doping.
if you look at the people teams like sky and garmin have hired over the years, you gotta assume they're actively helping their riders to gear up.
Take Weltz at Garmin, or Yates at Sky. Those two guys are old school fixers, nothing more nothing less.
Coaches like Knaven, De Jongh, Wegelius, Julich, Cioni, all 'known' dopers, and all hired for one purpose: they know particularly well how to gear up for the big races and avoid testing. Guys like Leinders and San Millan do the rest, they close the gate, so to say: make sure no one glows, and pull riders who do.
In addition, we see Sky and Garmin collaborating with various sports science labs.
Which means only one thing.

You make a good point about the microdosing being done in-house.
It could explain why Garmin hired Gonzalez Haro, a phlebotomist, for instance.

And yes, riders will additionally look for help outside of the team structure.
Hesjedal with William Petty, for instance, the anti-aging doctor on Hawaii.
Or Froome and a bunch of others with Stephane Bermon.
Or Millar with Cecchini.

This is a very good point.

On the subject of Yates etc, it strikes me that the lack of interest by the authorities in anti-doping is showed by the fact that riders like Yates are still at the centre of cycling (and let's not be anglocentric: the EQS managers' list is a litany of dopers). Yes, they're retired, but they're still at the very centre of the cycling culture, and none of them have ever admitted anything. It's a real shame CIRC was castrated by the UCI's apathy, otherwise we could have seen some genuine honesty and transparency - as opposed to PR bumf. I think their major role in the teams is enabling doping, creating a pharmaceutical culture, and directing riders to the good stuff without necessarily supplying, but there's no real way of knowing, thanks to the constant obfuscation we're seeing.

 

[Franklin]

Re:

I think we are in the era of sophisticated team programs.
sure, USPS style team doping is part of the past. But that wasn't very sophisticated, was it.

EXACTLY! People have an utterly misguided idea about doping. It's not clean labs with professional doctor monitoring every shift in the metabolism of their clients.

And even with these improvised schemes rider seldom got caught, unless they were idiots or pissed of the powers that be (hello Saunier Duval, hey Alberto!).

Now consider a more low-key scheme with small dosages and some emergency procedures ("I was not at home, my sister had an emergency")... what are the chances of being caught?

On Bonar: I have no reason to dismiss the notion he helped quite a few (small time) athletes. The arguments against it fail in the face of what happened before. There have been far crazier schemes than a certifed doctor prescribing hormones. I would not be surprised if he never helped a true star... but again, it's not implausible.

But unless a notebook in his handwriting pops up... nothing will turn up. Client confidentiality, privacy, political unwillingness, charlatan image of the doctor.... so many hurdles to get this going. The real gem here is how Brittish anti-doping enforcement is being shown as hollow (but that also goes for many other countries).

At least it shows me once again why I detest north-western European reporting and thei bias against Spain and Italy.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

I think we are in the era of sophisticated team programs.
sure, USPS style team doping is part of the past. But that wasn't very sophisticated, was it.

EXACTLY! People have an utterly misguided idea about doping. It's not clean labs with professional doctor monitoring every shift in the metabolism of their clients.

And even with these improvised schemes rider seldom got caught, unless they were idiots or pissed of the powers that be (hello Saunier Duval, hey Alberto!).

Now consider a more low-key scheme with small dosages and some emergency procedures ("I was not at home, my sister had an emergency")... what are the chances of being caught?

On Bonar: I have no reason to dismiss the notion he helped quite a few (small time) athletes. The arguments against it fail in the face of what happened before. There have been far crazier schemes than a certifed doctor prescribing hormones. I would not be surprised if he never helped a true star... but again, it's not implausible.

But unless a notebook in his handwriting pops up... nothing will turn up. Client confidentiality, privacy, political unwillingness, charlatan image of the doctor.... so many hurdles to get this going. The real gem here is how Brittish anti-doping enforcement is being shown as hollow (but that also goes for many other countries).

At least it shows me once again why I detest north-western European reporting and thei bias against Spain and Italy.

agreed.

as for Bonar working with real stars, recall that his alleged working with Premier League players was confirmed by that English doctor working in Spain. Still doesn't mean it's definitely true of course.

 

[thehog]

Re: British Doctor claims he doped 150 sports stars includin

Interesting tweet from "Spit in the soup" on Twitter about Cookson's claims on knowing nothing about Stevens claims on Boner. Stevens spoke with CiRC last year. I guess that was the redacted pages?

 

[sniper]

nice that.
nicely corroborates verbruggen's claim that the CIRC report was "outrageously biased".
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/jun/17/hein-verbruggen-legal-threat-biased-doping-report-lance-armstrong

 

[thehog]

Re:

.....was circ not....independent of cookson?

Mark L

The findings of the report were presented to Cookson. Clearly following up on a local drug ring wasn't a priority.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: British Doctor claims he doped 150 sports stars includin

Interesting tweet from "Spit in the soup" on Twitter about Cookson's claims on knowing nothing about Stevens claims on Boner. Stevens spoke with CiRC last year. I guess that was the redacted pages?

stevens will love that...he can see himself in a 'finish sheet' with those illustrious names around him

 

[sniper]

spit in the soup's addendum:
https://twitter.com/Spitinthesoup/status/717703756104777728

By the way, from the "Scope of Mandate" section of the Circ report:

The Commission was mandated to provide its Report to the UCI President.
It is within the sole responsibility of UCI to publish the Report. The Commission has included information that it considers should not be published for legal reasons in confidential
annexes to this Report.

Stevens' testimony, assuming it was along the lines of what he told ST, would have been in one of those confidential annexes, and Cookson would have read it and did sh!t all with it.

 

[sniper]

“When you open a can of worms you find a lot of worms,” Cookson said at the world track cycling championships in Paris this week. “I think it’s going to be very interesting - there will be a lot of uncomfortable things there.”

“I think there will be a lot of uncomfortable reading in it and we should all prepare ourselves for that. That was always going to be part of what was going to happen. I don’t think there will be a lot of new revelations, because mostly we have a good idea of what was happening and how widespread the problems were.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/feb/21/uci-brian-cookson-circ-doping-report-uncomfortable

 

[thehog]

Re:

“When you open a can of worms you find a lot of worms,” Cookson said at the world track cycling championships in Paris this week. “I think it’s going to be very interesting - there will be a lot of uncomfortable things there.”

“I think there will be a lot of uncomfortable reading in it and we should all prepare ourselves for that. That was always going to be part of what was going to happen. I don’t think there will be a lot of new revelations, because mostly we have a good idea of what was happening and how widespread the problems were.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/feb/21/uci-brian-cookson-circ-doping-report-uncomfortable

Cookson did nothing with the cortisone use mentioned in the CIRC, skinny riders gaining power. Cookson for the better part has sat on the report and done nothing. I guess he was trying to use it to get at McQuaid and it failed. Perhaps payback for McQuaid dropping Menchov and JTL into Cooksons lap.

 

[thehog]

Re:

spit in the soup's addendum:
https://twitter.com/Spitinthesoup/status/717703756104777728

By the way, from the "Scope of Mandate" section of the Circ report:

The Commission was mandated to provide its Report to the UCI President.
It is within the sole responsibility of UCI to publish the Report. The Commission has included information that it considers should not be published for legal reasons in confidential
annexes to this Report.

Stevens' testimony, assuming it was along the lines of what he told ST, would have been in one of those confidential annexes, and Cookson would have read it and did **** all with it.

Clearly this recommendation from the CIRC report was ignored:

3.1.3. Doctors

In addition to serving any sport sanction, doctors who are found guilty of an ADRV should be investigated to determine whether they are fit to continue their general medical practice. The situation where doctors found guilty of supplying or administering prohibited substances are suspended from acting as sports doctors, but remain free to practice in general medicine, needs to be addressed. Anti-doping bodies should have an obligation to inform the doctor’s professional regulatory body that he has been sanctioned for a sport violation so that the regulatory body may open an investigation against the doctor.

http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/CleanSport/16/87/99/CIRCReport2015_Neutral.pdf

 

[Benotti69]

the 10 posts of the above, excluding the obvious......,...., one, can all be dupilicated in the Cookson thread.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

Cameron and Boris were apparently rivals at Eton; good to see how rationa and mature our politics is.)

yeah, lemme find the picture of them sitting round on the steps...

[blackcat goes off to googles and tries to find the eton pic floating round the net]

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

Cameron and Boris were apparently rivals at Eton; good to see how rationa and mature our politics is.)

yeah, lemme find the picture of them sitting round on the steps...

[blackcat goes off to googles and tries to find the eton pic floating round the net]

had something to say about il guardina[sic] journo george monbiot, i thought they were roommates and in the same oxford college i could be wrong, and think hes a year older

 

[Cannibal72]

Re: Re:

Cameron and Boris were apparently rivals at Eton; good to see how rationa and mature our politics is.)

yeah, lemme find the picture of them sitting round on the steps...

[blackcat goes off to googles and tries to find the eton pic floating round the net]

had something to say about il guardina[sic] journo george monbiot, i thought they were roommates and in the same oxford college i could be wrong, and think hes a year older

If I alluded to David Cameron's most impressive university exploit, irondan would ban me, so I won't even mention farm animals...oops.

#praeteritio

I definitely won't drop this link here: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/6652895/I-smoked-dope-with-David-Cameron.html

Apparently DC was a mediocre student who never really worked, unlike Gideon 'George' Osborne (Gideon, a name so posh that he changed it while at a ****ing public school because he was getting bullied).

Oh, and on the subject of GO and drugs, he's supposed to have enjoyed cocaine and prostitutes on the yacht of a Rothschild, which is just so elitist it's painful.

 

[kwikki]

Re: Re:

I think we are in the era of sophisticated team programs.
sure, USPS style team doping is part of the past. But that wasn't very sophisticated, was it.

EXACTLY! People have an utterly misguided idea about doping. It's not clean labs with professional doctor monitoring every shift in the metabolism of their clients..

How do you know you have an accurate idea of what doping is?

You (and the rest of us) only know about the doping that has been exposed, and by definition that means we only know about the failed doping g systems.

What about the successful ones? We haven't a clue. We'd have to be seriously naive to think that any GT winners are clean, but we haven't a clue about what they are doing and how.

This is why I think Bonar is a small-time bull sh1tter. He's not big time. If he was, he wouldn't be shouting his mouth off to strangers about his clients.

 

[Franklin]

Re: Re:

Note that we are almost completely in agreement

You (and the rest of us) only know about the doping that has been exposed, and by definition that means we only know about the failed doping g systems.

Nope. Most riders actually never got caught let alone be sentenced. You display a common error I observe in many fans. You forget that most riders even when exposed never get a slap on the wrist.

The fame and money have been made... the cheering continues soon enough. Your claim that we know by definition only of failed systems is laughed away by the likes of a Virenque. If that's failure, most people would sign up for it.

If anything, it's making doping more attractive for athletes. The highest profile cases are especially a case in point.

What about the successful ones? We haven't a clue. We'd have to be seriously naive to think that any GT winners are clean, but we haven't a clue about what they are doing and how.

1. we actually have a pretty good clue at what GT winners did up until 2012
2. nothing significant changed in testing or protocol after 2012. (Witnessed by the lack of positives, indeed the big doping-lab cases, like cera, were years before 2012)

You might be right and there's something seriously new going on. But considering we know that epo (and hgh!) is still hard to detect (published experiments), chances are that it's still business as usual.

Occam's razer.

This is why I think Bonar is a small-time bull sh1tter. He's not big time. If he was, he wouldn't be shouting his mouth off to strangers about his clients.

I never claimed anything else. I also think his clients are small fries (and not many). But would I be shocked and amazed if he does have a high profile client? Nope. There have been more *** cases in the bizaarro sports world.

 

[kwikki]

I'm not sure you've understood my post, but hey.

I agree, most riders never fall foul of the anti-doping system. Why? Because they are lucky, careful, and the most tested (ie. Winning) ones probably have more skilled and informed doctors. But you are deluding yourself if you think you know for sure how they are doing it. I don't and unless you are somebody with an academic and professional background in applied haematology and anti-doping technology then you are just some guy who reads the internet (like me)

 

[thehog]

Re:

I'm not sure you've understood my post, but hey.

I agree, most riders never fall foul of the anti-doping system. Why? Because they are lucky, careful, and the most tested (ie. Winning) ones probably have more skilled and informed doctors. But you are deluding yourself if you think you know for sure how they are doing it. I don't and unless you are somebody with an academic and professional background in applied haematology and anti-doping technology then you are just some guy who reads the internet (like me)

Are you saying athletes who are high school drops and dope, circumventing the tests are smarter than the average internet user?

 

[wrinklyvet]

Re: Re:

I'm not sure you've understood my post, but hey.

I agree, most riders never fall foul of the anti-doping system. Why? Because they are lucky, careful, and the most tested (ie. Winning) ones probably have more skilled and informed doctors. But you are deluding yourself if you think you know for sure how they are doing it. I don't and unless you are somebody with an academic and professional background in applied haematology and anti-doping technology then you are just some guy who reads the internet (like me)

Are you saying athletes who are high school drops and dope, circumventing the tests are smarter than the average internet user?

I didn't think he said that, or anything about it, but am interested in his actual proposition, which seems plausible. No doubt you will get an answer.

 

[kwikki]

There won't be an answer because it is a meaningless comparison which is why I didn't make it in the first place. It's irrelevant.

The point still stands that you cannot know what you dont know, and if you think otherwise perhaps you can enlighten us all as to exactly what doping practices are being used by current Tour champions and how they are evading tests. I want facts not speculation, please, and as much detail as possible.

Can you do it? No. So unless you think they are all doing it on energy bars and peanuts butter sandwiches then you'll have to accept my point.