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British politics

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Actually my arrogance is heavily bounded by the people I respect and take inspiration from.

You attacking me doesn’t rise to that level.

So are you saying MB and/or I haven’t spoken to any of those people.

Or are you just one of those repressed types who gets defensive when personal/private feelings are transposed to larger social/cultural/historical tendencies?
 
I remember the first Leave voter I spoke to, pre referendum. I asked him to explain his reasoning. "It will be better" he said. When pushed he really couldn't go any deeper than "It just will".

I've yet to really hear anything more lucid and cogent from a Leaver. Locally, I asked Rick James to explain his reasoning here, and his reply was that he didnt need to because "his side has won".

The most you will get are some banal meaningless slogans, or some sort of half-baked conspiracy theory about EU armies etc (whilst being seemingly content with NATO membership, and a foreign army (US) parked on our lawn) nor having the wit to notice that Trump's US is disengaging and increasingly isolationist, so that we had better start organising ourselves collectively to fill the defence gap.

They've shut up about being ruled from Brussels now that they have realised that the UK parliament is sovereign, but theyve shown that they dont actually believe in UK law (not that they understand it) They've shut up about the Euro ("remember when we were told that not joining the Euro would be a disaster and look how that turned out...why should we believe their warnings about Brexit now!") Yes...look how it did turn out...the pound is now so weak and the Euro so strong that they are effectively at parity.

Sometimes you'll get some sort of explanation that it is the grievance of the class who have no voice and they have spoken. Yes, there is a forgotten class and they have spoken, in one huge collective uneducated* "Durrr". What you wont get is an explanation as to which aspects of EU membership have affected them personally, and how leaving the EU will solve any of the entrenched problems in the UK and make their lives better.

(*voter analysis shows that the lower your educational attainment the more likely it is that you voted Leave)

That really sums up the intellectual level of these people, and yet they whine like hell when you put up a fight because their utter stupidity and gullibility will have a direct impact on your life and the life chances of your children.

You wont get an explanation, because there isnt one, and now we are at a point where it is almost a cult, with the puppet-masters manipulating people into anger and resentment against the very democratic structures whose survival Leave was purported to be about protecting. It's all about "the will of the people" now and the collective amnesia that the putative deal was going to be the 'easiest in history' and would be better than what we have currently within the EU. The amnesia that we could already have departed the EU if Rees-Mogg and Johnson and the other ultra-Brexiteers had not voted down Theresa May's deal, not once but three times.

So go on, Del. Enlighten us as to how leaving the most successful economic bloc in history, and putting ourselves in a position of complete isolation with cap in hand to everybody else is going to help anybody other than charlatan politicians who are making a career out of it and hedge-fund disaster capitalists who hope to make billions from the UKs economic downturn.

Enlighten us as to how it is that you think that Jacob Rees-Mogg, the epitome of privileged elite, a multi-millionaire through tax avoidance, whose company paid no corporation tax last year because it is registered in the Cayman Iands, has the interests of the British working class and people like you at heart?

The truth is you have been conned by liars and charlatans like Johnson, Rees-Mogg and Farage. But as Mark Twain said it is easier to fool a man that to get him to accept that he has been fooled.

p.s. even that hotbed of Marxism, the National Farmers Union, is running a campaign against the devastation that 'no deal' would cause to UK farming. (see link below) You wont have seen it though, from inside your little bubble, will you.

Its Project Fear, isnt it Del.

View: https://twitter.com/NFUtweets/status/1177599489709940741?s=19
 
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your arrogance knows no bounds

however I speak to people who voted to leave and those who voted to remain, I know what they are like and do not fit the caricatures present by McBimble or yourself.
What i find most hilarious checking in here now and again, is the idea that Brexit is an evil rich person conspiracy to con the masses.


So
the City of London voted overwhelmingly to remain.
The richest parts of the UK voted overwhelmingly to remain.
The World Bank, IMF, NATO, G20, G7 came out in support for remain.
The worlds biggest financial companies, JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, Bloomberg, either voiced support for or even funded the remain campaign.
Massive international conglomerates from all types of industries came out in support of remain.
The vast majority of the country's political establishment came out in support of remain.
The vast majority of the country's media and pretty much the entire world media.
Presidents, leaders and other major figures from around the world, from the major and minor world powers came out in support of remain.
As did a plethora of major International CEO's and former CEO's of massive companies present in all continents.


Compared to, for leave, 4 local businesses, 10 local newspapers, one US presidential candidate, one smaller US newspaper and apparently Bryan Adams and Sol Campbell. + of course the voters, the poorer regions, the lower classes.

But of course, some people who lived since the 70's with the simplistic paradigm that anything they don't like is an evil rich people conspiracy, and anyone they support must be the poor victim proletariat, just don't have the brain hardware to adapt to facts on the ground.

Even when the entirety of world finance, media, politics, business, industry is on their side, its still somehow a rich conspiracy against them.


Because. errrr. Because the Rees Mogg family has a big personal fortune. (though actually absolutely nothing compared to dozens of the individuals and companies that actively supported remain).
 
Of course, as usual, you are misrepresenting what has been said (by me) into one simplistic notion.

Erect a strawman then smash it down. Have you got any other moves or are you a one-trick pony?
 
Wait, I’m confused. Is Hitch saying that all wealth has a unified voice and objectives?

Wild.

Wonder where all those contradictions of capitalism come from.

Maybe that’s a problem of being seduced by someone like Hitchens while mastering the language. Cuts off thought.
 
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Glorious time to be alive. All that Cold War antagonism had to go somewhere. I thought everyone knew Suez and the loss of banking control in the Gulf was the last gasp of Empire. I guess that memo didn't circulate for the plebs in school.

Sort of like dropping the gold standard and financializing private life security wasn't explained to the American dream plebs back in the 70s
Had to know that the dwindling sales @ Holland and Holland along with the tremendous decline in quality for Land Rover and Jaguar was going to catch up with the UK eventually.
Really is a shame that some resort to calling their political opposites "thick".
 
Wait, I’m confused. Is Hitch saying that all wealth has a unified voice and objectives?

Wild.

Wonder where all those contradictions of capitalism come from.

Maybe that’s a problem of being seduced by someone like Hitchens while mastering the language. Cuts off thought.
It might be a problem

Then again many self appointed intellectuals allow themselves to be seduced by Chomsky and that does cause reduced circulation to the brain.
 
Ah, the right-wing anti-intellectual slag. I’ve always wondered who appoints intellectuals? Institutions? Media? Or, wait, popularity.

Chomsky hasn’t said anything new in 30 years. Frees up time for other reading.

Similarly, I’ve yet to see you post anything useful, informative or insightful re. politics. I’m taking bets that won’t change.
 
I've often wondered why Nevele Neves (or 'The Hitch' for that matter) never stick around to see a debate through.

I cant imagine why they post in the first place if they are only going to run away.
 
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Ah, the right-wing anti-intellectual slag. I’ve always wondered who appoints intellectuals? Institutions? Media? Or, wait, popularity.

Chomsky hasn’t said anything new in 30 years. Frees up time for other reading.

Similarly, I’ve yet to see you post anything useful, informative or insightful re. politics. I’m taking bets that won’t change.
It is refreshing to notice your not using childish names to refer to the people you are having a discussion with.

But noticing the type of posts and the web content from some here it is easy to understand how they are suffering from too much internet.

Pointing out that southern EU has 20% unemployment while Germany was at 4% . EU economically is stagnant and failing for many.

The amount of people who believe in nationalism has risen over the past years. They distrust organizations like the EU who take control away from individual nations.
 
Had to know that the dwindling sales @ Holland and Holland along with the tremendous decline in quality for Land Rover and Jaguar was going to catch up with the UK eventually.
Really is a shame that some resort to calling their political opposites "thick".
It is refreshing to notice your not using childish names to refer to the people you are having a discussion with.

But noticing the type of posts and the web content from some here it is easy to understand how they are suffering from too much internet.

Pointing out that southern EU has 20% unemployment while Germany was at 4% . EU economically is stagnant and failing for many.

The amount of people who believe in nationalism has risen over the past years. They distrust organizations like the EU who take control away from individual nations.
Except unemployment rate in Southern Europe ISNT 20%.

It's nowhere near that. 9.5% in Italy, for example.

If you are basing an argument on a lie then your argument goes no further than the lie.

The information is easily available. No excuse for lying.
 
Except unemployment rate in Southern Europe ISNT 20%.

It's nowhere near that. 9.5% in Italy, for example.

If you are basing an argument on a lie then your argument goes no further than the lie.

The information is easily available. No excuse for lying.
You should not call people liars. It is really not nice. Just like the rest of your examples of demeaning anyone who does not agree with you.

Greece - 20.45
Spain - 16.2
Italy - 11.0

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/07/18/eu-unemployment-rate-nears-pre-recession-low/

what is "ISNT"
 
Blaming the EU for italy’s economic ailment is misplaced. The country has struggled ever since constantly devaluing the lira had its inevitable negative impact by the end of the Cold War. The tutelage of a certain berlusconi worsened a decent economic state, before the recession uncovered all of the systematic issues it had from which it has struggled to recover from, through ill judged austerity and an overly inflexible labour market. Likewise Greece, the Troika didn’t help but neither did the dire state of Greek finances pre-euro. greeces main issue from joining the euro was the fact it sort of ruined its trading ability, as it rapidly became wealthier and but also way less competitive. This isn’t the euro’s fault really as it’s sort of inherent, more so the greek government’s.
 
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Why are you quoting articles using data that are over a year old, when much more recent data is available?
Because that is the latest on Pew Research Centers site. Unless your Pew Research Center web site has something that I am unable to see. Unless you are also calling me a liar? That was the info I was looking at when I made my post and it was in the context of when or along the time frame for the brexit vote.

I will trust that site before any other biased media outlet. Pew research indicates the numbers are trending down.

If I look at the current EU site I can see that
Greece 17.0
Spain 13.8
Italy 9.5

Its ok to call people liars here?
 
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Blaming the EU for italy’s economic ailment is misplaced. The country has struggled ever since constantly devaluing the lira had its inevitable negative impact by the end of the Cold War. The tutelage of a certain berlusconi worsened a decent economic state, before the recession uncovered all of the systematic issues it had from which it has struggled to recover from, through ill judged austerity and an overly inflexible labour market. Likewise Greece, the Troika didn’t help but neither did the dire state of Greek finances pre-euro. greeces main issue from joining the euro was the fact it sort of ruined its trading ability, as it rapidly became wealthier and but also way less competitive. This isn’t the euro’s fault really as it’s sort of inherent, more so the greek government’s.
No one is doing that.
It is a perception that causes people to vote for brexit maybe?
 
You should not call people liars. It is really not nice. Just like the rest of your examples of demeaning anyone who does not agree with you.

Greece - 20.45
Spain - 16.2
Italy - 11.0

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/07/18/eu-unemployment-rate-nears-pre-recession-low/

what is "ISNT"
No it ISNT.

Those are figures from well over a year ago. I gave you current figures.

Even if we take your out of date figures it still isnt 20%.

Happy to give you a primary school maths lesson as you need it. The average of the current figures is 13.4%. Whichever way you look at it your post was bollox.

Dont waste our time. Come back with a solid argument based on solid data rather than vague insinuations based on nothing.
 
Because that is the latest on Pew Research Centers site. Unless your Pew Research Center web site has something that I am unable to see. Unless you are also calling me a liar? That was the info I was looking at when I made my post and it was in the context of when or along the time frame for the brexit vote.

I will trust that site before any other biased media outlet. Pew research indicates the numbers are trending down.

If I look at the current EU site I can see that
Greece 17.0
Spain 13.8
Italy 9.5

Its ok to call people liars here?
Why would you look for a Pew article when they state in the article that they use Eurostat and these are readily available and up to date? Unless you don't trust Eurostat but you do trust someone who just regurgitates their numbers? Anyone might suspect it was purposeful...
 
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