Brits don't dope?

[Catwhoorg]

Interesting words from Cooke.

Not sure its going to go anywhere, but at least she is speaking and being heard.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Where are Hoy, Boardman, Armistead, Millar etc since the whole furore broke around BC, Wiggins TUE's? Why do we not know their thoughts on these issues. These people are quick to seek the limelight and spin off's that cycling brings but are nowhere to be heard since Autumn.

Why should they comment?

They are either part of the solution or part of the problem. Their silence points to them being part of the problem.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

Interesting words from Cooke.

Not sure its going to go anywhere, but at least she is speaking and being heard.

Not going to have any effect. All it does is put it on record (again). The higher powers will not condemn their top Olympic athlete nor find fault with anyone involved, unless say a guy like Cope is sacrificed publicly while rewarded financially privately.

Some will have to take an early retirement (as seen already) or move to foreign pastures.

But Wiggins will keep his wins.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Where are Hoy, Boardman, Armistead, Millar etc since the whole furore broke around BC, Wiggins TUE's? Why do we not know their thoughts on these issues. These people are quick to seek the limelight and spin off's that cycling brings but are nowhere to be heard since Autumn.

Why should they comment?

They are either part of the solution or part of the problem. Their silence points to them being part of the problem.

Change cyclists for Muslim/Jew/Black/refugee/immigrant etc. and see how ridiculous this sounds.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Interesting words from Cooke.

Not sure its going to go anywhere, but at least she is speaking and being heard.

Not going to have any effect. All it does is put it on record (again). The higher powers will not condemn their top Olympic athlete nor find fault with anyone involved, unless say a guy like Cope is sacrificed publicly while rewarded financially privately.

Some will have to take an early retirement (as seen already) or move to foreign pastures.

But Wiggins will keep his wins.

The reason I'm more optimistic is because Collins really seems to get it and is putting his and the MPs weight behind this.
My guess is NC wouldn't have engaged with the MPs in the first place if she didn't have the feeling that Collins is up for the task.
The independent review is gonna come out next month and BBC yesterday said it was likely going to bring more bad news for BC.
Of course there is a possibility that it only leads to some sackings, and zero doping exposure, which would be disappointing.
But who knows.
In any case the MPs cannot be seen to be turning a blind eye. We're talking about shitload s of public money being used to sponsor a doping program.
And the Russia case is playing in the background so doing nothing is not an option.

 

[BullsFan22]

I see people are talking about it. I guess I am 24 hours late.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cycling/nicole-cooke-sexism-cycling-doping-bradley-wiggins-dave-brailsford-a7543696.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/2017/01/24/nicole-cooke-spares-no-one-questions-demand-answers/

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Where are Hoy, Boardman, Armistead, Millar etc since the whole furore broke around BC, Wiggins TUE's? Why do we not know their thoughts on these issues. These people are quick to seek the limelight and spin off's that cycling brings but are nowhere to be heard since Autumn.

Why should they comment?

They are either part of the solution or part of the problem. Their silence points to them being part of the problem.

Change cyclists for Muslim/Jew/Black/refugee/immigrant etc. and see how ridiculous this sounds.

Talk about exaggeration!

Lets keep this on topic, ie cycling, a sport.

It doesn't take a lot to come out and support Nicole Cooke, plenty of social media outlets to praise an athlete showing bigger balls than most.

All those listed are part of the doping problem in the sport and have benefitted hugely from it. Of course they are part of the problem.

 

[Dan2016]

Re:

Where are Hoy, Boardman, Armistead, Millar etc since the whole furore broke around BC, Wiggins TUE's? Why do we not know their thoughts on these issues. These people are quick to seek the limelight and spin off's that cycling brings but are nowhere to be heard since Autumn.

I think Millar is a narcissistic arse but in fairness to him he did speak in pretty strong terms about his own use of cortisone Kenacort, the same Wiggins took, how powerful a performance enhancer it is, how he thought it crazy anyone would take it for asthma. And he said he took 10mg I think, not the 40mg Wiggins did. It was pretty obvious he was saying it was extremely suspicious use of TUE by Wiggins.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Where are Hoy, Boardman, Armistead, Millar etc since the whole furore broke around BC, Wiggins TUE's? Why do we not know their thoughts on these issues. These people are quick to seek the limelight and spin off's that cycling brings but are nowhere to be heard since Autumn.

Why should they comment?

They are either part of the solution or part of the problem. Their silence points to them being part of the problem.

Change cyclists for Muslim/Jew/Black/refugee/immigrant etc. and see how ridiculous this sounds.

Talk about exaggeration!

Lets keep this on topic, ie cycling, a sport.

It doesn't take a lot to come out and support Nicole Cooke, plenty of social media outlets to praise an athlete showing bigger balls than most.

All those listed are part of the doping problem in the sport and have benefitted hugely from it. Of course they are part of the problem.

No really exaggerating, just highlighting a point. I could ask why every cyclist in the world doesn't protest when one is run over as well. Or why every football player doesn't speak out about head injuries, or why every college athlete doesn't complain about being used.

There is no requirement for people to speak out. It's fantastic that some people do but that shouldn't be used to shame others into doing it.

Your assumption that everyone dopes makes the rest of this discussion pointless.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

No really exaggerating, just highlighting a point. I could ask why every cyclist in the world doesn't protest when one is run over as well. Or why every football player doesn't speak out about head injuries, or why every college athlete doesn't complain about being used.

There is no requirement for people to speak out. It's fantastic that some people do but that shouldn't be used to shame others into doing it.

Your assumption that everyone dopes makes the rest of this discussion pointless.

Hoy, Boardman, Armistead, Millar are not everyday sports people.

No requirement to speak? I disagree. If you are part of the sport and you open your mouth to talk about your sport and they all do then you have to talk about the bad and the good and Nicole Cooke's statement is a huge moment in Brit Cycling and they should back her if they want to improve the sport for clean athletes or be castigated as part of the problem for their silence.

I can not understand why or how any athlete could compete in the cesspit of modern sport and remain clean. It would require an extremely stupid person to do that. To get to the level of professional sport takes ego, dedication and talent. To arrive at the top find out that you cannot be competitive without juicing and to continue is the mentality of the idiot.
I also dont believe teams want clean riders. They cant afford to have people not doping.

 

[Craigee]

Re: Re:

Where are Hoy, Boardman, Armistead, Millar etc since the whole furore broke around BC, Wiggins TUE's? Why do we not know their thoughts on these issues. These people are quick to seek the limelight and spin off's that cycling brings but are nowhere to be heard since Autumn.

Why should they comment?

They are either part of the solution or part of the problem. Their silence points to them being part of the problem.

Change cyclists for Muslim/Jew/Black/refugee/immigrant etc. and see how ridiculous this sounds.

Ridiculous. The Mens British cycling world is a hell of a lot smaller than say a muslim living in England and one in Turkey. The named British cyclists all know one another and some very well. Their silence and clear distancing of themselves from Wiggins is at least very interesting. Says a lot really.

 

[Craigee]

Re: Re:

No really exaggerating, just highlighting a point. I could ask why every cyclist in the world doesn't protest when one is run over as well. Or why every football player doesn't speak out about head injuries, or why every college athlete doesn't complain about being used.

There is no requirement for people to speak out. It's fantastic that some people do but that shouldn't be used to shame others into doing it.

Your assumption that everyone dopes makes the rest of this discussion pointless.

Hoy, Boardman, Armistead, Millar are not everyday sports people.

No requirement to speak? I disagree. If you are part of the sport and you open your mouth to talk about your sport and they all do then you have to talk about the bad and the good and Nicole Cooke's statement is a huge moment in Brit Cycling and they should back her if they want to improve the sport for clean athletes or be castigated as part of the problem for their silence.

I can not understand why or how any athlete could compete in the cesspit of modern sport and remain clean. It would require an extremely stupid person to do that. To get to the level of professional sport takes ego, dedication and talent. To arrive at the top find out that you cannot be competitive without juicing and to continue is the mentality of the idiot.
I also dont believe teams want clean riders. They cant afford to have people not doping.

Do you believe this goes for track cycling as well? No real money in it so is there a good chance that there is very little doping on the track? Were the huge PBs by all the Brits in Rio legit in your opinion? Was it all down to their infamous marginal gains? Lots of questions I know.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

No really exaggerating, just highlighting a point. I could ask why every cyclist in the world doesn't protest when one is run over as well. Or why every football player doesn't speak out about head injuries, or why every college athlete doesn't complain about being used.

There is no requirement for people to speak out. It's fantastic that some people do but that shouldn't be used to shame others into doing it.

Your assumption that everyone dopes makes the rest of this discussion pointless.

Hoy, Boardman, Armistead, Millar are not everyday sports people.

No requirement to speak? I disagree. If you are part of the sport and you open your mouth to talk about your sport and they all do then you have to talk about the bad and the good and Nicole Cooke's statement is a huge moment in Brit Cycling and they should back her if they want to improve the sport for clean athletes or be castigated as part of the problem for their silence.

I can not understand why or how any athlete could compete in the cesspit of modern sport and remain clean. It would require an extremely stupid person to do that. To get to the level of professional sport takes ego, dedication and talent. To arrive at the top find out that you cannot be competitive without juicing and to continue is the mentality of the idiot.
I also dont believe teams want clean riders. They cant afford to have people not doping.

You are free to disagree, that's your choice, it's a pointless discussion now so I'll not reply.

Cooke's statement has fair greater implications for women in cycling than it does for doping in cycling. Her statements on both are nothing new and while it's brilliant that she has been able to bring everything together and offer insight in a setting where she will be heard she really didn't say anything ground-breaking.

Where are Hoy, Boardman, Armistead, Millar etc since the whole furore broke around BC, Wiggins TUE's? Why do we not know their thoughts on these issues. These people are quick to seek the limelight and spin off's that cycling brings but are nowhere to be heard since Autumn.

Why should they comment?

They are either part of the solution or part of the problem. Their silence points to them being part of the problem.

Change cyclists for Muslim/Jew/Black/refugee/immigrant etc. and see how ridiculous this sounds.

Ridiculous. The Mens British cycling world is a hell of a lot smaller than say a muslim living in England and one in Turkey. The named British cyclists all know one another and some very well. Their silence and clear distancing of themselves from Wiggins is at least very interesting. Says a lot really.

Calls for people to voice outrage are usually local, always expected and always moronic. Do you go out in protest every time someone who could be associated with you commits a crime or does something wrong?

It is completely up to an individual if they wish to comment on a situation. I think we all know what would happen is someone came out and said they side with Wiggins so you clearly don't want them to comment freely, you want them to provide confirmation bias.

 

[sniper]

@craigee: Enough rewards in track cycling through sponsoring and lucrative post-carreer gigs if you land a medal and/or become friendly with the people in power at BC.
Look at Hayles, Hoy, etc. Doping pays, also in track.

 

[Craigee]

King Boonen, you are shifting the goal posts. You compared all the bro's down at the Manchester velodrome in British cycling with that of complete strangers who happen to be of the same religion or skin colour of which there are massive populations all across the world. It was a poor argument to use.

On your latest point. Lord help us if one or more actually spoke up against Wiggins. Would be a breath of fresh air if they did. But yes you do make a point regards judgement if they sided with him. In saying that though, it simply isn't a fact yet that he ever doped so why wouldn't they support him? Their silence is still interesting.

 

[Craigee]

Re:

@craigee: Enough rewards in track cycling through sponsoring and lucrative post-carreer gigs if you land a medal and/or become friendly with the people in power at BC.
Look at Hayles, Hoy, etc. Doping pays, also in track.

I guess so with British cycling but not so career boosting for track riders in many other countries.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

King Boonen, you are shifting the goal posts. You compared all the bro's down at the Manchester velodrome in British cycling with that of complete strangers who happen to be of the same religion or skin colour of which there are massive populations all across the world. It was a poor argument to use.

On your latest point. Lord help us if one or more actually spoke up against Wiggins. Would be a breath of fresh air if they did. But yes you do make a point regards judgement if they sided with him. In saying that though, it simply isn't a fact yet that he ever doped so why wouldn't they support him? Their silence is still interesting.

I'm not shifting the goalposts. I'm pretty sure Armitstead isn't a bro and you made the assumption I was talking about people spread across the globe. You are trying to define the parameters of my argument, you should really just ask if you want specifics, after all it is a discussion forum, and in future I'll try and be more specific.

I'm sure they all know what will happen if they speak up to support him, that's reason enough to keep out of it. There also seems to be an assumption that sports people have direct access to media outlets and dictate when they comment. While they could no doubt try and set up interviews etc. what usually happens is they comment when asked. It is very possible that no one has bothered to ask others what they think, I don't think I've read anywhere that Hoy has refused to comment on the situation for example.

It is interesting, it's more interesting that the TP squad hasn't come out in his defence though (at least not that I've seen). I have no idea how much interaction Hoy and Armitstead would have had with Wiggins beyond social, Boardman has left BC and was on the equipment side and as far as I'm aware Millar has pretty much nothing to do with BC or Wiggins. It's highly likely that they don't really know anything about the Wiggins situation. They are all much more likely to know about the sexist nature of BC.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

@craigee: Enough rewards in track cycling through sponsoring and lucrative post-carreer gigs if you land a medal and/or become friendly with the people in power at BC.
Look at Hayles, Hoy, etc. Doping pays, also in track.

It takes a lot more than landing a medal, otherwise Queally, MacLean, Manning, Newton, Clay, Edgar, Burke and so on would be much better known.

 

[sniper]

sure, but i don't think that for any of those guys landing a medal has been detrimental to their wallet.
it's not necessarily about being well known.
it's about paying the rent.
For some there are lucrative rewards, for others slightly less lucrative, but still enough to make it worthwhile to dope.

Look at Queally. No, didn't get 'famous'. But he did get plenty of funding opportunities after Sydney 2000.
Also landed his name in the Cycling Hall of Fame.

That's not saying they're all dopers per se.
Just saying that imo there is no reason to assume they're clean just because the rewards are less than on the road.

That said, altoegtehr I can certainly go with Craigee's point that there'll likely be less rampant doping in track as a whole than in road as a whole. But at the top level of track cycling you can be sure doping is prevalent as are motors, btw.

 

[yaco]

KB is spot on with his post - There is no need for every athlete to pass public comments on issues whether they are big or small.

 

[sniper]

again, it's not about what they "need" to say.
It's about what one can reasonably expect them to say if they were genuinely anti-doping.
their silence doesn't prove anything, but its more consistent with them being pro-doping than with them being anti-doping.

 

[yaco]

Re:

again, it's not about what they "need" to say.
It's about what one can reasonably expect them to say if they were genuinely anti-doping.
their silence doesn't prove anything, but its more consistent with them being pro-doping than with them being anti-doping.

Nah - Readers of papers and the like don't want their papers filled with athletes repeating ' I am Anti-Doping ' - And media companies are trying to make a dollar so print newsworthy articles - Though this can be debated.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

KB is spot on with his post - There is no need for every athlete to pass public comments on issues whether they are big or small.

Not every athlete but those with influence, ie the 4 named.

Every athlete passes comment on the most mundane aspects of their lives via social media, if they had a vested interest in fairplay and clean sport i would expect them to praise Nicole Cooke. But if they are part of the problems she has highlighted I expect their silence. Guess what we got?

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

King Boonen, you are shifting the goal posts. You compared all the bro's down at the Manchester velodrome in British cycling with that of complete strangers who happen to be of the same religion or skin colour of which there are massive populations all across the world. It was a poor argument to use.

On your latest point. Lord help us if one or more actually spoke up against Wiggins. Would be a breath of fresh air if they did. But yes you do make a point regards judgement if they sided with him. In saying that though, it simply isn't a fact yet that he ever doped so why wouldn't they support him? Their silence is still interesting.

I'm not shifting the goalposts. I'm pretty sure Armitstead isn't a bro and you made the assumption I was talking about people spread across the globe. You are trying to define the parameters of my argument, you should really just ask if you want specifics, after all it is a discussion forum, and in future I'll try and be more specific.

I'm sure they all know what will happen if they speak up to support him, that's reason enough to keep out of it. There also seems to be an assumption that sports people have direct access to media outlets and dictate when they comment. While they could no doubt try and set up interviews etc. what usually happens is they comment when asked. It is very possible that no one has bothered to ask others what they think, I don't think I've read anywhere that Hoy has refused to comment on the situation for example.

It is interesting, it's more interesting that the TP squad hasn't come out in his defence though (at least not that I've seen). I have no idea how much interaction Hoy and Armitstead would have had with Wiggins beyond social, Boardman has left BC and was on the equipment side and as far as I'm aware Millar has pretty much nothing to do with BC or Wiggins. It's highly likely that they don't really know anything about the Wiggins situation. They are all much more likely to know about the sexist nature of BC.

Nicole Cooke highlighted much more than the Wiggins fiasco.

Boardman, eg, aint going to spit in the soup now that his bikes are being ridden by a pro team.

Hoy is angling to go the same route of Boardman in building a bike brand. Aint going to spit in the soup now is he.

If people are not going to spit int he soup than they are part of the problem as the situation never changes.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

No really exaggerating, just highlighting a point. I could ask why every cyclist in the world doesn't protest when one is run over as well. Or why every football player doesn't speak out about head injuries, or why every college athlete doesn't complain about being used.

There is no requirement for people to speak out. It's fantastic that some people do but that shouldn't be used to shame others into doing it.

Your assumption that everyone dopes makes the rest of this discussion pointless.

Hoy, Boardman, Armistead, Millar are not everyday sports people.

No requirement to speak? I disagree. If you are part of the sport and you open your mouth to talk about your sport and they all do then you have to talk about the bad and the good and Nicole Cooke's statement is a huge moment in Brit Cycling and they should back her if they want to improve the sport for clean athletes or be castigated as part of the problem for their silence.

I can not understand why or how any athlete could compete in the cesspit of modern sport and remain clean. It would require an extremely stupid person to do that. To get to the level of professional sport takes ego, dedication and talent. To arrive at the top find out that you cannot be competitive without juicing and to continue is the mentality of the idiot.
I also dont believe teams want clean riders. They cant afford to have people not doping.

Do you believe this goes for track cycling as well? No real money in it so is there a good chance that there is very little doping on the track? Were the huge PBs by all the Brits in Rio legit in your opinion? Was it all down to their infamous marginal gains? Lots of questions I know.

No, i dont believe that the BC Track was achieved 'legally'. Money is not the reason athletes dope. Not much money in weightlifting, javelin, hammer etc but athletes still dope.

The sweeping success of GB in track is not down to marginal gains. It is doping or motors. Their use of frames and wheels in London'12 was weird and points towards motors, in my humble opinion.