Cadel Evans is a Clean Champion

[delbified]

Every country hails their own winners in every sport as clean, with no proof.

as an aussie cycling fan, i dispute that. Mick Rogers, Matt Lloyd (who turned up near the top of the list of UCI's suspicious blood parameters), pretty much anyone who rode in pro teams < 2005 (using an arbitrary date - i'm not suggesting the peloton suddenly got clean after then).

no one goes around touting the purity of those riders, as you're asking to get slapped down. again - there isn't the same evidence against Evans.

 

[observer]

Words cannot describe how flawed this argument is. Seriously i cannot believe people post stuff like this.

First of all, i dont know if you realize this or not, but the bit about doping in the sentence you quote, is totally seperate from the bit about the journos applauding him. It says they applauded him, then the author trying to sell evans as clean adds in his own opinion that evans is considered clean, but that bit has absolutely nothing to do with the journos, its 2 sentences linked because a comma is used instead of a full stop.



Furthermore the source is unusable. Its a national media outlet, making a vague and generic story about a event they are seeing from far away. Not only that its conveniently an ozzie newspaper making an ozzie nationalistic piece. Totally delegitimizes the whole story (if it was arguing what you claim it is arguing)

Every country hails their own winners in every sport as clean, with no proof. Could publish 5 volumes of an encyclopedia just of names of dopers who were hailed as clean heroes in stories like this before they got caught. Or who got standing ovations Stories like this arent worth the 2kb word document they are written on.


And how are journos supposed to know he is clean in the first place? What information could they possibly have that gets them all to decide he was clean?

I totally agree with you. I wasn't trying to make a definitive statement, and I only did a quick google search on Evans being applauded by the media after he won, and was just trying to get other peoples opinion on what journalists really think of Evans.

 

[Nick777]

actually he went on record with Rene the cycling journalist @Cyclingheroes when he was interviewing him at a Telekom training camp. And Vaughters knows this personally from the peloton.

you need to read the first pages of the thread, and the negative and positive factors. do a member search in this thread for DearWiggo who posted it all. and i contributed to either side.

on the VO2, @AIS i think brett aitken has the highest for a cyclist in the 90s, and there is fuzzy records on evans, 91, or 88. and when, 17? or a year either side. i think a rower might have the highest VO2max at AIS, but rowers and nordic skiiers recruit upper body so will have a higher result.

the most damning evidence imo, is the results (cos only wins count in cycling) have come in his mid 30s. that is NOT NORMAL

VO2 and his podium in the chrono at World Juniors when he got on Mcewens chrono bike and he rode mtb not road, is significant at his native talent. a clean peloton, his palmares look more like Contadors.

Will Walker holds the Australian record - 94.
Cadel - 87 AFAIK.

http://ftp.cyclingnews.com/features/?id=2003/ais_juniors_get_ready

PS... is that true about Cadel & Aspbergers? That's the second time I've heard it.

 

[Ferminal]

Evans held the step test record until Durbo?

 

[86TDFWinner]

Furthermore the source is unusable. Its a national media outlet, making a vague and generic story about a event they are seeing from far away. Not only that its conveniently an ozzie newspaper making an ozzie nationalistic piece. Totally delegitimizes the whole story (if it was arguing what you claim it is arguing)

Spot on here bud, nice post(as a whole).

The media(and several MILLION folks) were shouting from rooftops about how "clean" Wonderboy was too, and how'd that work out for them?(Hitch: Im just adding to your post, not arguing with you).

As I said earlier, I have no proof either way whether he did/didnt dope, I'd like to think he's clean, as admittedly I like Cadel & think he's a great rider. It'd be a real shame if he were exposed as a doper.

 

[PCutter]

Evans held the step test record until Durbo?

Correct

10c

 

[blackcat]

Will Walker holds the Australian record - 94.
Cadel - 87 AFAIK.

http://ftp.cyclingnews.com/features/?id=2003/ais_juniors_get_ready

PS... is that true about Cadel & Aspbergers? That's the second time I've heard it.

yeah forgot about WW. sorry Will.

but Aitken had higher even i think, but not the highest. and Ogrady was close to 90, high 80s also?

re: autism spectrum. how about the day evans is in yellow on the day off, and he re-scheduled the team ride for half and hour earlier, then he turns up about 30 minutes late thinking he did nothing wrong. Mcewen pulled him aside and told him that $h!t wont fly treating your teammates like plebs.

no one with a brain does this, when he requires the team to support him to win, you are making them resent and hate you, why? you only do it, if you do not know you are doing it.

 

[blackcat]

Seems to me it says more about JJ than about Evans? Who told that story anyway? JJ?

i think it was on evans own website

 

[Nick777]

yeah forgot about WW. sorry Will.

but Aitken had higher even i think, but not the highest. and Ogrady was close to 90, high 80s also?

re: autism spectrum. how about the day evans is in yellow on the day off, and he re-scheduled the team ride for half and hour earlier, then he turns up about 30 minutes late thinking he did nothing wrong. Mcewen pulled him aside and told him that $h!t wont fly treating your teammates like plebs.

no one with a brain does this, when he requires the team to support him to win, you are making them resent and hate you, why? you only do it, if you do not know you are doing it.

Speaking of Will Walker...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/fkg-tour-of-toowoomba-2013/stage-1/results

 

[delbified]

re: autism spectrum. how about the day evans is in yellow on the day off, and he re-scheduled the team ride for half and hour earlier, then he turns up about 30 minutes late thinking he did nothing wrong. Mcewen pulled him aside and told him that $h!t wont fly treating your teammates like plebs.

i remember this story - he got held up. in his defence, can you imagine what it would be like having the maillot jaune? this to me is more disorganised and perhaps inconsiderate than proof of mental illness.

 

[blackcat]

i remember this story - he got held up. in his defence, can you imagine what it would be like having the maillot jaune? this to me is more disorganised and perhaps inconsiderate than proof of mental illness.

it was an anecdote. it was not an analysis on a DSM-IV. I heard the justification. It meant nothing to Mcewen, it was an ad-hoc post-facto justification. "I have maillot jaune obligations". re:media.

there was a rest day ride that he needed to get in. he intentionally rescheduled the ride either that morning or the previous night. he did not think it was a problem to come 30 minutes late. when he expected them to come 30 minutes before the previous rescheduled time.

the guy is a phenomenal cyclist. like aldo sassi said, perhaps the best of his generation. but come on, this behaviour would not fly if he rode on greenedge, someone would flick him or pay him back with some equivalent disrespect. in his defence, i think he is genuinely did not appreciate he had done something wrong/disrespectful.

 

[Captain Serious]

Correct

10c

Did Rob Crowe have some sort of record at the AIS before Evans busted it?

 

[blackcat]

thought it was aitken with the highest VO2max, for a cyclist, a rower might have been higher. stuey had good numbers. then walker busted out a 90+.

crowe and mclachlan old school.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Is that quote ("I have a ferrari inside me") really all you have to link Cadel to Ferrari?

Er, this was kind of a news story a few months ago...

 

[Captain Serious]

thought it was aitken with the highest VO2max, for a cyclist, a rower might have been higher. stuey had good numbers. then walker busted out a 90+.

crowe and mclachlan old school.

Yeah, 'legend' has it around here (Melb) that Crowe had the ergo output records until Evans got there

 

[blackcat]

Er, this was kind of a news story a few months ago...

René Schuijlenburg @Cyclingheroes had Evans admitting he had Ferrari when he was at a Telekom training camp pre-season. now, i thought ever since he was a pro on the continent sassi was his coach. but rene did not conflate it with rogers, who had employed ferrari about that time. note: Tony Rominger and Ferrari had some business relationship, maybe cross ownerships in each other's firm, before Rominger sold into IMG. nb. rominger cadel's agent/manager on the continent for the first stage of his career.

 

[Ripper]

fair point. but it was a funny anecdote.

might be lost if you have aspergers and threaten people if they stand on your dog tho.

first rule of dogs. its like, dont bring a gun to a knife fight.

dont bring a dog to a media scrum.

Yup, those two would make best buds. Evans, who at best could be considered fairly odd, and JJ, who is not reallllly a nice or friendly persona

 

[Cookster15]

thought it was aitken with the highest VO2max, for a cyclist, a rower might have been higher. stuey had good numbers. then walker busted out a 90+.

crowe and mclachlan old school.

I think Cadel's V02 score (87) was and still is the highest relative V02 Max score recorded by the AIS when Evans was still a Mountain Biker at 22. Rowers are measured in Absolute V02 (ml / hour) as the limiting factor in performance is not relative to body weight but absolute Oxygen utilisation. O'Grady was not measured by the AIS so it is doubtful he would get Cadel's score under the same conditions. This was confirmed on here by others (Krebs?).

I've bumped this thread as some doubts of Evans relative cleanliness compared with other GC rivals during his career was raised (yet again) in the Evans discussion thread in PRR forum. HAving followed this thread the only coherent 'stain' on Evans was his one off test with Ferrari while still a Mountain Biker followed by his riding on Mapei and Telekom. Evans was a pariah at Telekom with his unusual persona and Ulrich being their boy. In his breakthrough at the 2002 Giro (Mapei) it was said his performance there was even more noteworthy as he was clean.

Yes knowing the sordid history of this sport I can understand why people could never believe (no Lance references) it is possible to win a Tour clean but a closer inspection of the facts says Evans does not ring alarm bells like all the others which makes his GT Palmeres all the more noteworthy.

 

[GotDropped]

I think Cadel's V02 score (87) was and still is the highest relative V02 Max score recorded by the AIS when Evans was still a Mountain Biker at 22. Rowers are measured in Absolute V02 (ml / hour) as the limiting factor in performance is not relative to body weight but absolute Oxygen utilisation. O'Grady was not measured by the AIS so it is doubtful he would get Cadel's score under the same conditions. This was confirmed on here by others (Krebs?).

I've bumped this thread as some doubts of Evans relative cleanliness compared with other GC rivals during his career was raised (yet again) in the Evans discussion thread in PRR forum. HAving followed this thread the only coherent 'stain' on Evans was his one off test with Ferrari while still a Mountain Biker followed by his riding on Seaco and Telekom. Evans was a pariah at Telekom with his unusual persona and Ulrich being their boy. In his breakthrough at the 2002 Giro (Seaco) it was said his performance there was even more noteworthy as he was clean.

Yes knowing the sordid history of this sport I can understand why people could never believe (no Lance references) it is possible to win a Tour clean but a closer inspection of the facts says Evans does not ring alarm bells like all the others which makes his GT Palmeres all the more noteworthy.

During the 2002 giro he was riding for Mapei, not saeco.

 

[Cookster15]

During the 2002 giro he was riding for Mapei, not saeco.

Ok, thanks!

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I think Cadel's V02 score (87) was and still is the highest relative V02 Max score recorded by the AIS when Evans was still a Mountain Biker at 22. Rowers are measured in Absolute V02 (ml / hour) as the limiting factor in performance is not relative to body weight but absolute Oxygen utilisation. O'Grady was not measured by the AIS so it is doubtful he would get Cadel's score under the same conditions. This was confirmed on here by others (Krebs?).

I've bumped this thread as some doubts of Evans relative cleanliness compared with other GC rivals during his career was raised (yet again) in the Evans discussion thread in PRR forum. HAving followed this thread the only coherent 'stain' on Evans was his one off test with Ferrari while still a Mountain Biker followed by his riding on Seaco and Telekom. Evans was a pariah at Telekom with his unusual persona and Ulrich being their boy. In his breakthrough at the 2002 Giro (Seaco) it was said his performance there was even more noteworthy as he was clean.

Yes knowing the sordid history of this sport I can understand why people could never believe (no Lance references) it is possible to win a Tour clean but a closer inspection of the facts says Evans does not ring alarm bells like all the others which makes his GT Palmeres all the more noteworthy.

Good post.

You seem to be an informed person.

A question for you:
The Ferrari test was done because Rominger was Cadel's agent, did he change agents during time?

I was 'at liberty' to watch the Giro 2002 where Evans was winning untill that stage where il Falco suddenly did a Falco uphill, pretty hilarious I must say.

And, on the other hand he beat a blood doped to the gills Aitor Gonzalez in the TT.

I would like your view on that.

 

[Franklin]

Evans was his one off test with Ferrari while still a Mountain Biker followed by his riding on Mapei and Telekom.

There's a tad more tbh.

- Aldo Sassi remains troublesome.
- Davitamon lotto had their fair share of problematic doctors (Klimaschka*)
- BMC has a truly dirty record (in the past, but the team structure seems to be the same).

Evans simply never rode for a team that can be regarded as clean. That's no proof at all, but it's troublesome all the same.

*Not sure they were there together or missed each other by a year. In any case, Lotto has an "impressive" list of medical personel over the years.

 

[Cookster15]

Good post.

You seem to be an informed person.

A question for you:
The Ferrari test was done because Rominger was Cadel's agent, did he change agents during time?

I was 'at liberty' to watch the Giro 2002 where Evans was winning untill that stage where il Falco suddenly did a Falco uphill, pretty hilarious I must say.

And, on the other hand he beat a blood doped to the gills Aitor Gonzalez in the TT.

I would like your view on that.

Thanks. Not sure about when Evans ditched Rominger but maybe it stopped when he came to Sassi?

His implosion on the final climb of the 2002 Giro while in Pink was put down to inexperience (not eating enough). I like your description of il Falco

Not familiar with Aitor Gonzalez but can only assume he was a Climber who only became competitive in TTs thanks to dope - ie less natural talent than Evans?

 

[Ripper]

Not familiar with Aitor Gonzalez but can only assume he was a Climber who only became competitive in TTs thanks to dope - ie less natural talent than Evans?

More like a TT rider who became a better TT rider and a climber due to dope

 

[Granville57]

Yes knowing the sordid history of this sport I can understand why people could never believe (no Lance references) it is possible to win a Tour clean but a closer inspection of the facts says Evans does not ring alarm bells like all the others which makes his GT Palmeres all the more noteworthy.

How about a "closer inspection" of the 2005 Tour de France?