Cadel Evans is a Clean Champion

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Ferminal

Jul 3, 2009
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thrawn said:
I think his performance in this Giro is irrelevant to whether he is doping. He's fading due to age.
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Yeh, just like how he recovered like a 25 year old in 2011 and a 55 year old in 2012. Career best to career worst, funny thing age.

Nvm it was just that virus that swept over him between his super first week in 2012 and the average second week.

Look at the last three seasons, he's actually had very very good performances for a few days to a week, but the three GTs his ridden have all followed the exact same pattern, which happens to be completely different to anything since 2005 (the usual one bad day aside).
 
T

thrawn

May 2, 2010
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Ferminal said:
Yeh, just like how he recovered like a 25 year old in 2011 and a 55 year old in 2012. Career best to career worst, funny thing age.

Nvm it was just that virus that swept over him between his super first week in 2012 and the average second week.

Look at the last three seasons, he's actually had very very good performances for a few days to a week, but the three GTs his ridden have all followed the exact same pattern, which happens to be completely different to anything since 2005 (the usual one bad day aside).
Click to expand...

So are you suggesting that

a) He was doping until he won the tour but is now clean
b) Reduced doping program since winning the tour
c) Same doping program, just age
d) Something else
 
F

Ferminal

Jul 3, 2009
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b more than anything. Riders taking less risks at the end of their career and after big achievements is perfectly understandable. I'm not really big on using age as a reason just for the sake of it. Horner showed age itself doesn't have to be a barrier and no one has really answered the question of age properly.
 
M

movingtarget

Aug 5, 2009
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the sceptic said:
Basso being another example.. I wonder if he is riding cleans now.
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The only difference between Menchov, Basso Sastre and Evans is that Evans managed a few more years but also started later in grand tours. All of these riders started fading around 32 or 33 and since Evans won the Tour at 34 he has not looked good in GTs except in last year's Giro where stages were radically shortened. He has shown that he would be much better now targeting the shorter, flatter stage races if he wants to continue riding. As for Horner. Where does one start ? Many assumed that Evans would finish this season but he still seems to enjoy the racing even when he is not winning much. Same as Horner I suppose.
 
Escarabajo

Escarabajo

Apr 16, 2009
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Ferminal said:
b more than anything. Riders taking less risks at the end of their career and after big achievements is perfectly understandable. I'm not really big on using age as a reason just for the sake of it. Horner showed age itself doesn't have to be a barrier and no one has really answered the question of age properly.
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What do you mean?

It is proven that there is depletion of hormones with age. So I have been told by many doctors!!!:)
 
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thrawn

May 2, 2010
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Ferminal said:
b more than anything. Riders taking less risks at the end of their career and after big achievements is perfectly understandable. I'm not really big on using age as a reason just for the sake of it. Horner showed age itself doesn't have to be a barrier and no one has really answered the question of age properly.
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Fair enough. I think that's definitely possible, just that I'm leaning towards him maintaining whatever program he was on and is suffering an age related decline.
 
Cookster15

Cookster15

Moderator
May 14, 2011
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Look, I can still accept the possibility that Evans has / does dope. But lets look at what we know:

1. Pre 2009 WT Evans raced timidly.
2. The UCI Biological Passport was introduced in 2009.
3. Post Evans 2009 WT win he seemed to transform from a 'wheel sucker' to a rider who took responsibility when racing.
4. 2011 TDF: It was very obvious climbing speeds were reduced - Voeckler.
5. He is geting older now and is past his prime.

Yes Evans raced less timidly after his WT win but knowing his competition was cleaner may have helped in that regard.

I remember pre 2011 TDF Evans spoke very confidently on his chances. I felt he was unrealistic knowing what Contador did to the competition at the Giro that year. Maybe Evans was aware AC was targeted due to his 2010 Tour positive and would be lowering his doping for the TDF?

The variation in Evans performances over time can just as easily be explained by factors other than doping. If you are a supremely aerobically talented clean athlete and they make your sport cleaner than of course the talented but clean athlete is going to look better plus is going to have more confidence in his racing knowing his competition has less "assistance".

A lot on here think Oxygen vector doping gives huge improvement. That depends on what you consider to be "huge". From everything I have read the real improvement is actually between 5 and 15%. The variation in elite athlete aerobic capacity (threshold power) can easily be more than 10% pre doping. There is some overlap. Then his recent decline can easily be explained as age related not dope related.
 
Walkman

Walkman

Apr 4, 2010
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Cookster15 said:
Look, I can still accept the possibility that Evans has / does dope. But lets look at what we know:

1. Pre 2009 WT Evans raced timidly.
2. The UCI Biological Passport was introduced in 2009.
3. Post Evans 2009 WT win he seemed to transform from a 'wheel sucker' to a rider who took responsibility when racing.
4. 2011 TDF: It was very obvious climbing speeds were reduced - Voeckler.
5. He is geting older now and is past his prime.

Yes Evans raced less timidly after his WT win but knowing his competition was cleaner may have helped in that regard.

I remember pre 2011 TDF Evans spoke very confidently on his chances. I felt he was unrealistic knowing what Contador did to the competition at the Giro that year. Maybe Evans was aware AC was targeted due to his 2010 Tour positive and would be lowering his doping for the TDF?

The variation in Evans performances over time can just as easily be explained by factors other than doping. If you are a supremely aerobically talented clean athlete and they make your sport cleaner than of course the talented but clean athlete is going to look better plus is going to have more confidence in his racing knowing his competition has less "assistance".

A lot on here think Oxygen vector doping gives huge improvement. That depends on what you consider to be "huge". From everything I have read the real improvement is actually between 5 and 15%. The variation in elite athlete aerobic capacity (threshold power) can easily be more than 10% pre doping. There is some overlap. Then his recent decline can easily be explained as age related not dope related.
Click to expand...

Or maybe he just thought that doing an incredibly hard Giro would be hard to recover from since he did the same one year earlier...
 
Samson777

Samson777

Mar 12, 2013
804
10
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Cookster15 said:
Look, I can still accept the possibility that Evans has / does dope. But lets look at what we know:

1. Pre 2009 WT Evans raced timidly.
2. The UCI Biological Passport was introduced in 2009.
3. Post Evans 2009 WT win he seemed to transform from a 'wheel sucker' to a rider who took responsibility when racing.
4. 2011 TDF: It was very obvious climbing speeds were reduced - Voeckler.
5. He is geting older now and is past his prime.

Yes Evans raced less timidly after his WT win but knowing his competition was cleaner may have helped in that regard.

I remember pre 2011 TDF Evans spoke very confidently on his chances. I felt he was unrealistic knowing what Contador did to the competition at the Giro that year. Maybe Evans was aware AC was targeted due to his 2010 Tour positive and would be lowering his doping for the TDF?

The variation in Evans performances over time can just as easily be explained by factors other than doping. If you are a supremely aerobically talented clean athlete and they make your sport cleaner than of course the talented but clean athlete is going to look better plus is going to have more confidence in his racing knowing his competition has less "assistance".

A lot on here think Oxygen vector doping gives huge improvement. That depends on what you consider to be "huge". From everything I have read the real improvement is actually between 5 and 15%. The variation in elite athlete aerobic capacity (threshold power) can easily be more than 10% pre doping. There is some overlap. Then his recent decline can easily be explained as age related not dope related.
Click to expand...
Not going into all the details, but this is maybe not all we know.

There is ferrari: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/spo...says-cadel-evans/story-fn8sc2wz-1226501021846

The guy who sent evans to Ferrari, Ex doper Rominger who was coached by Ferrari. And who beside Evans, also was the manager of a couple of other dopers, including Wonder Vino:)
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/rominger-denies-ferrari-money-laundering-links

And of course you could have a look at: Team history, the era Evans was a part of and so on. Just to add to your list with Evans facts.
 
F

Frosty

Jun 25, 2009
3,234
2
13,485
Cookster15 said:
Look, I can still accept the possibility that Evans has / does dope. But lets look at what we know:

1. Pre 2009 WT Evans raced timidly.
2. The UCI Biological Passport was introduced in 2009.
3. Post Evans 2009 WT win he seemed to transform from a 'wheel sucker' to a rider who took responsibility when racing.
4. 2011 TDF: It was very obvious climbing speeds were reduced - Voeckler.
5. He is geting older now and is past his prime.
Click to expand...

Only a small error potentially but i thought it was introduced in 2008?

In 2008 itself i thought that Evans got a bit stressed out by things, headbutting cameras that sort of thing, which cant be optimal for recovery day-to-day. Also had some problems with his team.

Generally, has to be said that Evans has come out of a murky period with nothing much against his name. That by no means is saying he was a clean champion but is intriguing. Some people have mentioned the vuelta 2004 where a lot of the t-mobile team went down with an illness but Evans didnt and wondered whether this shows Evans was a non-doper. Then again Zabel was unaffected as well and went on to win the points jersey which given Zabel's positive from 1999 when he previously claimed he only tried EPO a few times in 1997 (?) does put this dubious theory in further doubt.
 
F

Ferminal

Jul 3, 2009
18,948
5
22,485
Samson777 said:
Not going into all the details, but this is maybe not all we know.

There is ferrari: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/spo...says-cadel-evans/story-fn8sc2wz-1226501021846

The guy who sent evans to Ferrari, Ex doper Rominger who was coached by Ferrari. And who beside Evans, also was the manager of a couple of other dopers, including Wonder Vino:)
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/rominger-denies-ferrari-money-laundering-links

And of course you could have a look at: Team history, the era Evans was a part of and so on. Just to add to your list with Evans facts.
Click to expand...

There is growing up with the AIS too...
 
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