Cadel Evans is a Clean Champion

[sittingbison]

...His roommate is one of the ones who fell ill. How he could possibly not know what was going on is beyond me...

This is a very interesting aspect that applies to ALL the peleton and doping, not just Evans. It really should have its own thread. Some people kept their doping super secret, some like Armstrong talked about it openly thinking they are untouchable. Whatever, you would think that strange comings and goings, mysterious absences, talking in code, hiding stuff in luggage, "stomach cramps" etc would arouse some level of suspicion.

Evans is particularly insular and reserved, and notoriously focused. Even so I have no doubt he and everyone else knows whats going on, but minds their own business. He and everyone else certainly could not talk openly about what they knew and suspected, or its game over - see Bassons and Kimmage before Evans time (and Simeoni during).

Everyone knows about "spitting in the soup"

 

[blackcat]

I added in the Bruyneel forecast on him not pulling time on Sastre in 2008. I would have that as #1

On the (9) for. Protected, hmmm, I dont see that as valid personally. Cycling is cycling. Evans is one of the best faces besides a Moncoutie, a boy-next-door, someone your daughter to marry. I fail to see nefarious motives behind protecting him, because he was never inside the tent, the Australian cycling clique. Yeah, the media dont really wish for a doping story, but Evans is a great face. And I dont believe in Moncoutie neither btw.

Arguments for doping:
1) Confirmed client of Ferrari in 2000. Possible connection in 2003 with Telekom. recent declaration that he only saw Ferrari in 2000 is "all in"
2) lots of known doping teams, Mapei, Telekom, Lotto, BMC. the Bassons, Moncoutie argument
3) performance against known dopers didn't actually WIN until 2011. Always struggled. Fluctuating performances
4) not a vocal anti doper, silence on Armstrong, meally mouthed utterance against Vino in 2007, useless recent diary post. private and reclusive, uncomfortable with public address
5) Won the TdF at 34yo, still performing at 35yo diet and sports science
6) BMC Soigneur arrested with EPO, and the Lotto swannie not at BMC when busted
7) Several illnesses including this year and the Hunters' Syndrome diagnosis post Pais Vasco 2006 http://www.cyclingnews.com/editions/latest-cycling-news-for-april-24-2006
8) Managed by uber doper Tony Rominger not manager from before 2005 just his cycling agent. Dave Flaskis was Aus manager.
9) protected by vested interests such as Cycling Australia

Arguments against doping:
1) Johan Bruyneel's prediction that Evans did not have the strength to pull back Sastre in the final chrono in 2008 Tour
2) 2002 Mapei talk about impressive 2002 Giro (performed when he was not given anything)
3) Sassi's relationship. Sassi's words in the final year, said a Tour win would mark Evans as the finest rider of his generation.
4) no 'hard' evidence of any kind which means diddly squat
5) no mutterings from peloton or media. Boonen in 2007, Hamilton in 2012, expressed a confidence warped perspective of "clean" in cycling
6) normal career trajectory
7) no abnormal performance increases such as Wiggo or Froome 2007 Tour performance
8) no startling stages or "extraterrestrial" attacks like Ricco
9) physiology, high 80s or low 90s VO2 test at the AIS in Canberra not as good as LeMonds
10) Not selected in Telekom Tour teams, and stayed in the 2004 Vuelta when the team aborted because of food poisoning, which has been mooted to be bad blood.

Dutch journo Rene Schuijlenburg (sic) in Cyingheroes confirmed him with Ferrari at Telekom pre-season camp in 2003. A German website in 2006 also had this (Suddeutsche Zeitung??), however he does not appear to be part of the Telekom set up, and Ferrari was employed by Lance. His recent declaration that he only saw Ferrari in 2000 is a direct statement that could be verified as a lie, and would destroy him.

The single biggest and irrefutable argument is a career performing against known and suspected dopers. See the Tour de France list here http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1054190&postcount=22. This is more than enough reason for many in the clinic to hang him.

 

[The Hitch]

3) performance against known dopers didn't actually WIN until 2011. Always struggled. Fluctuating performances

Lol what? Evans won the worlds in 09 fw in 10 against a very strong field and a bunch of other stuff before.

If we are just talking tour then i suppose basso never doped nor kloeden and ullrich never after 97?

Don't see why winning is such a big factor anyway. So if he had got an extra 5 seconds on each mountain stage of the 07 tour, or if contador had a wheel puncture, your suspicion of Evans would have risen 10 fold?.

4) not a vocal anti doper, silence on Armstrong, meally mouthed utterance against Vino in 2007, useless recent diary post. private and reclusive, uncomfortable with public address

He's also silent on contador. You know the guy who scraped him for a tour victory. When acs + was announced acf was going mental about how cadel should be the 07 tour winner. Cadel himself though didn't say a thing.

8) Managed by uber doper Tony Rominger not manager from before 2005[/I

[/QUOTE]

Wasn't a world beater until 2005.

 

[sittingbison]

Hitch its a condensed compilation of for and against arguments so far, along with the condensed rebuttals.

I imagine the Worlds in '09 don't count all that much as its a bit of a lottery, and is very dependent on teams and tactics. Its almost impossible to refute the "competing against dopers" argument, which is the single best one for making a dop0ing case. The rebuttal is although he has a great palmares and was always right up there, he didn't actually win all that much. For instance he has only three stage victories in Grand Tours. Uber doped Armstrong had 22 stage "victories" and 7 Grand Tour "wins" (until recently lol). Contador has 5 Grand Tours and six stages (with another two Grand Tours disqualified) in the same period. Between 2006 and 2010 Evans has one stage in TdF, no stage race wins, and in one day races the '09 Worlds.

2011 was his best year almost by a Wiggo 2012 order of magnitude

I cannot find any info on when Rominger was ditched as his manager other than he had someone else by 2005. For all I know he might have ditched Rominger in 2001 when he turned pro. This makes the brand new Rominger suspicion posted by zultranova almost in the Ferrari catagory, something that is well known but ancient history and almost irrelevant until shown to be otherwise.

Anyway, feel free to add to this list. All the points on it have been debated already, so no real need to revisit the same arguments four or five times over like the Sky thread.

 

[blackcat]

won Fleche in '10. Thats a big win. But he should have won those three ardenne classics. (Is Amstel Ardenne?) those two, plus Amstel. He should have won the three classics, was his right.

 

[Ferminal]

He would be 3x L-B-L champ if you take out the dopers.

 

[The Hitch]

He would be 3x L-B-L champ if you take out the dopers.

Which ones?

For instance he has only three stage victories in Grand Tours. Uber doped Armstrong had 22 stage "victories" and 7 Grand Tour "wins" (until recently lol). Contador has 5 Grand Tours and six stages (with another two Grand Tours disqualified) in the same period. Between 2006 and 2010 Evans has one stage in TdF, no stage race wins, and in one day races the '09 Worlds.

Moncoutie meanwhile has.6 while Frank schleck only has 2. Not everyone who dopes becomes the best and wins stages at will. Frank schleck is a perfect example of.a.doper who.can reach a certain form, good enough to challenge for gts but never really above it and never good enough to just drop everyone else at will on route to stages. and Frank schleck never excelled in the tt like Evans did which meant that he had to.go for stages in the mountains, where Evans did not.

Side issue, but what about.Evans notorious poor positioning for the tts. The aerodynamics alone may have cost him a few time trials and maybe even some gts. Im really behind the average cycling fan when it comes to tt mechanics, biut is it possible that on the physical bit Evans was up there with the levis and schumachers and cancellaras? That would be very exceptional for.a climber of Evans talent especially in that era.

 

[Ferminal]

2005, 2008 and 2010 I think, depending on your view of Philbert.

 

[skidmark]

I just want to clarify about Rominger, because I admit my ignorance. A couple of questions:

1) what does a manager even do for you/how would an 'ex-doper' manager be more suspicious?

2) what managers in cycling are not suspicious?

I ask because, yes, while it is quite ominous to say 'Rominger managed Kloden, Vino, Kessler, etc', I'm not sure if it has anything to do with doping - I mean, you could say 'he rode in a peloton with Kloden, Vino, Kessler' and it might have the exact same implications, which is to say very few. All that I'm aware of that Rominger ever 'did' for Evans that was suspicious was refer him to Ferrari in 2000, but that was before Ferrari was 'notorious' so it's not like it was some clandestine thing that Evans should have known better about.

I really don't know what a manager's role is - I certainly haven't heard anything about managers' (that is, personal agents, not those involved with teams) involvement with doping. Hell, I don't even know what role Rominger might have in Evans' career. So I can't really use that as suspicion of him doping, because I really don't know.

 

[spetsa]

I just want to clarify about Rominger, because I admit my ignorance. A couple of questions:

1) what does a manager even do for you/how would an 'ex-doper' manager be more suspicious?

2) what managers in cycling are not suspicious?

I ask because, yes, while it is quite ominous to say 'Rominger managed Kloden, Vino, Kessler, etc', I'm not sure if it has anything to do with doping - I mean, you could say 'he rode in a peloton with Kloden, Vino, Kessler' and it might have the exact same implications, which is to say very few. All that I'm aware of that Rominger ever 'did' for Evans that was suspicious was refer him to Ferrari in 2000, but that was before Ferrari was 'notorious' so it's not like it was some clandestine thing that Evans should have known better about.

I really don't know what a manager's role is - I certainly haven't heard anything about managers' (that is, personal agents, not those involved with teams) involvement with doping. Hell, I don't even know what role Rominger might have in Evans' career. So I can't really use that as suspicion of him doping, because I really don't know.

Managers may be charged with many different tasks. Many of your questions may be answered in the months to come if Bill Stapelton finds himself under oath and in need of saving his own a**

 

[abbaskip]

Wasn't a world beater until 2005.

Have you seen his mtb record as an 18-22 year old?

 

[slowspoke]

I just want to clarify about Rominger, because I admit my ignorance. A couple of questions:

1) what does a manager even do for you/how would an 'ex-doper' manager be more suspicious?

2) what managers in cycling are not suspicious?

I ask because, yes, while it is quite ominous to say 'Rominger managed Kloden, Vino, Kessler, etc', I'm not sure if it has anything to do with doping - I mean, you could say 'he rode in a peloton with Kloden, Vino, Kessler' and it might have the exact same implications, which is to say very few. All that I'm aware of that Rominger ever 'did' for Evans that was suspicious was refer him to Ferrari in 2000, but that was before Ferrari was 'notorious' so it's not like it was some clandestine thing that Evans should have known better about.

I really don't know what a manager's role is - I certainly haven't heard anything about managers' (that is, personal agents, not those involved with teams) involvement with doping. Hell, I don't even know what role Rominger might have in Evans' career. So I can't really use that as suspicion of him doping, because I really don't know.

Well, Joerg Jaksche said he saw Rominger taking Vino to Fuentes. Which makes him suspicious in my book.

http://drunkcyclist.com/2007/07/10/joerg-jaksche-der-spiegel-article-translation/

 

[LaPlagne87]

I'm aware of that Rominger ever 'did' for Evans that was suspicious was refer him to Ferrari in 2000, but that was before Ferrari was 'notorious' so it's not like it was some clandestine thing that Evans should have known better about.

.

Didn't the EPO/orange juice quote make him notorious well before 2000???

 

[webvan]

There's a bit of a legend around he EPO vs OJ quote and Hamilton sets it straight in his book it seems : he didn't say that EPO was dangerous but that abusing someting was dangerous, like drinking 30 liters of OJ...

 

[sittingbison]

Didn't the EPO/orange juice quote make him notorious well before 2000???

yes, and I think his name was mentioned in Festina Affair as well by a couple of riders.

Evans was still a MTBer, not even a road pro and was 22-23yo when he went to Ferrari. He would have heard of him for sure, but would not have been exposed to the peloton gossip and all the details or particulars. Ferrari was considered a top notch trainer/advisor in the cycling community and getting his imprimatur would have made neophyte Evans a valuable commodity to Rominger. Don't forget Dodger went to Tenerife with Ferrari (along with Levi, Vino etc) for "training advice"

 

[blackcat]

Which ones?


Moncoutie meanwhile has.6 while Frank schleck only has 2. Not everyone who dopes becomes the best and wins stages at will. Frank schleck is a perfect example of.a.doper who.can reach a certain form, good enough to challenge for gts but never really above it and never good enough to just drop everyone else at will on route to stages. and Frank schleck never excelled in the tt like Evans did which meant that he had to.go for stages in the mountains, where Evans did not.

Side issue, but what about.Evans notorious poor positioning for the tts. The aerodynamics alone may have cost him a few time trials and maybe even some gts. Im really behind the average cycling fan when it comes to tt mechanics, biut is it possible that on the physical bit Evans was up there with the levis and schumachers and cancellaras? That would be very exceptional for.a climber of Evans talent especially in that era.

but Moncoutie became a stage hunter, and was allowed to ride off the front as no threat. Would not have happened when he was a GC rider.

And Levi is a donkey to racehorse. Take him off the gear, and see his timetrial with Gerolsteiner in the Landis tour.

2005, 2008 and 2010 I think, depending on your view of Philbert.

Gilbert not clean. But Evans would not be winning into his mid thirties. They were not winning in their mid thirties when they were clean(er) in the 80s.

Have you seen his mtb record as an 18-22 year old?

Absalon's era is at an entire different threshold. Evans would just make up the numbers probably.

 

[M Sport]

He would be 3x L-B-L champ if you take out the dopers.

Interesting theory, for me I would say there was more suspicion around Evans than Gilbert.

 

[BrentonOfTheNorth]

Doesn't Gilbert hold the record for the fastest climb of the Mur de Huy?

 

[M Sport]

Doesn't Gilbert hold the record for the fastest climb of the Mur de Huy?

He had quite a fast time from memory. Cadel did as well, he beat Contador up there. Cadel won it a year after Rebellin and a year before Gilbert, great company.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

He had quite a fast time from memory. Cadel did as well, he beat Contador up there. Cadel won it a year after Rebellin and a year before Gilbert, great company.

You don't find Gilbert's complete and utter plummet from form this year after last year's epicness even a little bit strange?

 

[M Sport]

You don't find Gilberts complete and utter plummet from form this year after last year's epicness even a little bit strange?

Absolutely I do. For the record I think they are both dopers. When I said 'interesting theory' to Ferminal's comment about Evan's being the winner if you took out all the dopers in LBL I just thought it odd you would take out Gilbert but not Evans.

If you had to build a circumstantial case around each I would say Evan's is the easier to build. Both same result though in my opinion.

If I were to re-assign a recent LBL to another top 10 rider I would probably only choose the year Gerran's finished 6th.

 

[Ferminal]

Absolutely I do. For the record I think they are both dopers. When I said 'interesting theory' to Ferminal's comment about Evan's being the winner if you took out all the dopers in LBL I just thought it odd you would take out Gilbert but not Evans.

If you had to build a circumstantial case around each I would say Evan's is the easier to build. Both same result though in my opinion.
.

I completely agree.

 

[The Hitch]

Doesn't Gilbert hold the record for the fastest climb of the Mur de Huy?

Yes, only from what ive seen the method for measuring does seem to be pausing at a certain refference point on youtube replays.

He also seems to hold all 3 of the fastest times for Cauberg, which if i recall correctly where significantly better than anything anyone else has ever done on there.

Its also worth bearing in mind that in 2010 and 2011 he spent half the climb celebrating, and both those ascents involved a harder run in than the descent run in we had this year at Amstel and worlds.

the funniest thing is, Gilbert is making a mockery of Rebellin and Di Luca and Valverdes times up these climbs from the dope free era, and yet, all i read in the press is how cycling is cleaner because the times are falling.

And how Gilbert is 1 of the most anti doping riders in the peloton.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Absolutely I do. For the record I think they are both dopers. When I said 'interesting theory' to Ferminal's comment about Evan's being the winner if you took out all the dopers in LBL I just thought it odd you would take out Gilbert but not Evans.

If you had to build a circumstantial case around each I would say Evan's is the easier to build. Both same result though in my opinion.

If I were to re-assign a recent LBL to another top 10 rider I would probably only choose the year Gerran's finished 6th.

I'm clearly still a fanboy in denial. I find Evans' performances far more believable than Gilberts.

 

[skidmark]

Didn't the EPO/orange juice quote make him notorious well before 2000???

I think that quote was from 1994, yeah. But I guess what I meant was that after his ban, Ferrari = doping, absolutely. In 1994, anyone involved with cycling = doping, as much as anyone else. In 2000, somewhere in between, so it wouldn't be as suspicious to a potential clean cyclist, maybe. Hell, what do I know? I've never been in the peloton, maybe it should be easy for anyone to see, even a 20-year-old MTBer. But from reading all the testimony from the USADA case, all the guys coming to USPS seemed to be in the dark about Ferrari's actual role for some time before they realized it. It's not a stretch to think that a 20-year old MTBer from Australia would be as in the dark as some neo-pros from the US, and follow the advice of their manager who is a legendary pro, without questioning it.

Of course, it's not much of a leap to think that if that manager were pushy, it would be easy for them to convince that rider that they had to dope to succeed. That's why I'm curious about the role of manager, and how aggressive Rominger might have been.