Cadel Evans is a Clean Champion

[Lanark]

The question isn't if he is exceptionally gifted. All the top guys are. And if those guys aren't clean....well.

 

[delbified]

The question isn't if he is exceptionally gifted. All the top guys are. And if those guys aren't clean....well.

my point is that there's more to a rider's performance than just:
1. his physical makeup, and
2. whether he's doped up or not.

but you wouldn't gain that impression from reading many of the posts in this forum.

 

[D-Queued]

The question isn't if he is exceptionally gifted. All the top guys are. And if those guys aren't clean....well.

This sentence is not blinking.
This sentence is blinking.
This page contains three false sentences.

Gifted? Doped? Clean? Only one thing is true.

Dave.

 

[Lanark]

my point is that there's more to a rider's performance than just:
1. his physical makeup, and
2. whether he's doped up or not.

but you wouldn't gain that impression from reading many of the posts in this forum.

Yes, but if other, equally talented riders are on major doping programs, doping yourself is a conditio sine qua non to beat them.

You are right that there are a lot of other factors in play (mental, luck etc.), but to beat the best (doped) riders in a three week race, you must at least match them physically.

 

[Ferminal]

you may recall he broke his elbow in 2010, had a virus in 2012. lotto was his lost years, where he suffered under team mgt.

Telekom?

Performance wise he has never been better than he was at Pharma/Lotto.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

If you lok at Evan's results history he was up there with the big time epo users. If he could ride that well clean, well how come he only has 1 GT win when power numbers are not as high now compared to those years?

La Toussuire 2006:
Carlos Sastre 44.47
Cadel Evans 45.02

La Toussiere 2012:
Thibot Pinot 44.51
Froome same time
Nibali 44.53
Wiggins same time
Cadel Evans 46.19

Must have been a lot of backwind last year.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=2PgmHIBxfV4#t=1583s

http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/tour-de-france-2012/stage-16/results
Tour 1998:
Stage 10
Col de Peyresourde (9.5 km, 6.9 %, 657 m)
Jan Ullrich: 23 min 39 sec
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/1998/tour98/stage10.html
''Today the Tour goes up: at 54 kms the "Hors Categorie" Col d'Aubisque (16.5 km climb at 7%), then at 120 kms the "Hors Categorie" Col du Tourmalet (18.4 km climb at 7.7%), then at the 150 kms mark, the Cat 1 Col d'Aspin (a 12.4 km climb at 5.1%) and finally just before the end the Cat 1 Col de Peyresourde (9.7 km climb at 6.7%) comes at 181 kms.''

1. Rodolfo Massi (Ita) Casino 5.49.40 (33.717)
2. Marco Pantani (Ita) Mercatone Uno 0.36
3. Michael Boogerd (Ned) Rabobank 0.59


Tour 2012:
Froome 24.27
Wiggins/Nibali the same

Kinda looks the same route, lets look at the results:

1 Thomas Voeckler (Fra) Team Europcar 5:35:02
2 Chris Anker Sörensen (Den) Team Saxo Bank-Tinkoff Bank 0:01:40
3 Gorka Izaguirre Insausti (Spa) Euskaltel - Euskadi 0:03:22
4 Alexandr Vinokourov (Kaz) Astana Pro Team
5 Brice Feillu (Fra) Saur - Sojasun 0:03:58
6 Jens Voigt (Ger) RadioShack-Nissan 0:04:18
7 Daniel Martin (Irl) Garmin - Sharp 0:06:08
8 Simone Stortoni (Ita) Lampre - ISD
9 Giampaolo Caruso (Ita) Katusha Team
10 Laurens Ten Dam (Ned) Rabobank Cycling Team 0:06:11
11 Vincenzo Nibali (Ita) Liquigas-Cannondale 0:07:09
12 Bradley Wiggins (GBr) Sky Procycling
13 Christopher Froome (GBr) Sky Procycling
14 Nicolas Roche (Irl) AG2R La Mondiale 0:08:07
44 Ivan Basso (Ita) Liquigas-Cannondale 0:14:07
http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/tour-de-france-2012/stage-16/results

Last years Tour had a lot of backwind, even the number 44 had a faster time then Pantani in 1998...

Human evolution is going fast, 14 years ago men needed EPO fuel, nowadays they go faster clean.

On Cadel: he is just getting old.

 

[SundayRider]

La Toussuire 2006:


On Cadel: he is just getting old.

Doesn't seem to be affecting Wiggo.

 

[Benotti69]

<snip>

Human evolution is going fast, 14 years ago men needed EPO fuel, nowadays they go faster clean.

This will be JV's/Sky's next PR coup.

 

[gustienordic]

This will be JV's/Sky's next PR coup.

Hahah, the marginal gains of human evolution... I can see it now!

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

This will be JV's/Sky's next PR coup.

I believe Portelau did write something last year on this subject. Will search for it.

But I bet JV will say that is bs, because climbing speeds are so far down, he - and others - just keeps on forgetting who are riding at what speed.

Evans has been quite consistent over his carreer, must be said.

The guy earlier on this thread whining over the lack of support for Evans on Lotto should look back at the Tour 2011, no support at all from his BMC teammates, autobus fillers.

 

[86TDFWinner]

So says Tyler Hamilton, here. Probably few in the peloton know more about who's dirty, who's clean, and what's what in pro cycling, than Tyler Hamilton. TH is naming names and kicking behinds, and he says Cadel is clean.

What do you say? Is there a clean champion, and is it Cadel Evans?

Not to stir up a hornets nest, but I've asked here SEVERAL times, for someone to post either way whether Cadel is clean or dirty & no one has either way. Admittedly, I like Cadel and think what he did in 2011, was great. However, if he's found to have been dirty, then I will have lost all respect for him & he needs to have all results stripped from him, like other riders have. I don't know either way whether he did or didn't, I'd hope we found out either way.

Just my .002¢

 

[pmcg76]

La Toussuire 2006:
Carlos Sastre 44.47
Cadel Evans 45.02

La Toussiere 2012:
Thibot Pinot 44.51
Froome same time
Nibali 44.53
Wiggins same time
Cadel Evans 46.19

Must have been a lot of backwind last year.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=2PgmHIBxfV4#t=1583s

http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/tour-de-france-2012/stage-16/results
Tour 1998:
Stage 10
Col de Peyresourde (9.5 km, 6.9 %, 657 m)
Jan Ullrich: 23 min 39 sec
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/1998/tour98/stage10.html
''Today the Tour goes up: at 54 kms the "Hors Categorie" Col d'Aubisque (16.5 km climb at 7%), then at 120 kms the "Hors Categorie" Col du Tourmalet (18.4 km climb at 7.7%), then at the 150 kms mark, the Cat 1 Col d'Aspin (a 12.4 km climb at 5.1%) and finally just before the end the Cat 1 Col de Peyresourde (9.7 km climb at 6.7%) comes at 181 kms.''

1. Rodolfo Massi (Ita) Casino 5.49.40 (33.717)
2. Marco Pantani (Ita) Mercatone Uno 0.36
3. Michael Boogerd (Ned) Rabobank 0.59


Tour 2012:
Froome 24.27
Wiggins/Nibali the same

Kinda looks the same route, lets look at the results:

1 Thomas Voeckler (Fra) Team Europcar 5:35:02
2 Chris Anker Sörensen (Den) Team Saxo Bank-Tinkoff Bank 0:01:40
3 Gorka Izaguirre Insausti (Spa) Euskaltel - Euskadi 0:03:22
4 Alexandr Vinokourov (Kaz) Astana Pro Team
5 Brice Feillu (Fra) Saur - Sojasun 0:03:58
6 Jens Voigt (Ger) RadioShack-Nissan 0:04:18
7 Daniel Martin (Irl) Garmin - Sharp 0:06:08
8 Simone Stortoni (Ita) Lampre - ISD
9 Giampaolo Caruso (Ita) Katusha Team
10 Laurens Ten Dam (Ned) Rabobank Cycling Team 0:06:11
11 Vincenzo Nibali (Ita) Liquigas-Cannondale 0:07:09
12 Bradley Wiggins (GBr) Sky Procycling
13 Christopher Froome (GBr) Sky Procycling
14 Nicolas Roche (Irl) AG2R La Mondiale 0:08:07
44 Ivan Basso (Ita) Liquigas-Cannondale 0:14:07
http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/tour-de-france-2012/stage-16/results

Last years Tour had a lot of backwind, even the number 44 had a faster time then Pantani in 1998...

Human evolution is going fast, 14 years ago men needed EPO fuel, nowadays they go faster clean.

On Cadel: he is just getting old.

Weather conditions in 1998: wet and foggy.
Weather conditions in 2012: dry and sunny.

 

[Spectacleur]

I believe Portelau did write something last year on this subject. Will search for it.

But I bet JV will say that is bs, because climbing speeds are so far down, he - and others - just keeps on forgetting who are riding at what speed.

Evans has been quite consistent over his carreer, must be said.

The guy earlier on this thread whining over the lack of support for Evans on Lotto should look back at the Tour 2011, no support at all from his BMC teammates, autobus fillers.

Some quotes about Evans : http://laflammerouge.com/comprendre-la-saison-2011-avec-frederic-portoleau/

 

[delbified]

The guy earlier on this thread whining over the lack of support for Evans on Lotto should look back at the Tour 2011, no support at all from his BMC teammates, autobus fillers.

there's a lot more to team support than riding alongside your leader on the mountain stages. BMC are doing a much better job for Cadel than Lotto did.

 

[delbified]

Performance wise he has never been better than he was at Pharma/Lotto.

i'm a bit of a cadel fanboy and like to believe he won a lot of the races in which others finished ahead of him and avoided doping controls. so in that respect, i'd tend to agree. but there seems to have been something going on at Lotto that was distracting Cadel. when JVdB showed promise, team mgt seemed to switch allegiances very quickly, which history shows was not very astute.

he has been very clear that he is happier at BMC. i just wonder how that may have affected his performances during his Lotto years, if he had that type of support.

 

[The Hitch]

Not to stir up a hornets nest, but I've asked here SEVERAL times, for someone to post either way whether Cadel is clean or dirty & no one has either way. Admittedly, I like Cadel and think what he did in 2011, was great. However, if he's found to have been dirty, then I will have lost all respect for him & he needs to have all results stripped from him, like other riders have. I don't know either way whether he did or didn't, I'd hope we found out either way.

Just my .002¢

Even the people who claim cycling is clean now admit it was doped to the rafters in 2006 when Evans came 4th was it, and 2007 when he came 3rd 2nd.

Even they say, now, or some of them anyway, it wasnt possible for clean athletes to win then.

To say one has to be optimistic to believe Evans was in amongst all those heavy chargers purely on talent, is an understatement. Its highly highly unlikely.

Oh and he did also post a very good time Huy when he won it. Better than a lot of doped ones.

 

[PACONi]

Silly it may be, borderline troll even, but worthwhile certainly. I've asked before about this lengthy, no-name virus that has blighted Cadel for a decent chunk of last season and much of this, now its gone and he's mixing it again? I just expected it to be oneof the main topics post-race but instead yet again it's a dreary deconstruction of Sky. Just demonstrable of the selective nature of the conversation in this place.

At least they gave Froome's a name.

The difference being that Evans has sucked since he got the 'virus'. Froome, on the other hand, sucked, got better, sucked, then got better again. When Evans uses this same virus as an excuse over a period of years, then you can compare him to the dawg.

Disclaimer : this is not to say Evans is clean, just that you drawing parallels between the two riders in this context is rubbish.

 

[delbified]

To say one has to be optimistic to believe Evans was in amongst all those heavy chargers purely on talent, is an understatement. Its highly highly unlikely.

to me, the best way of identifying dopers has long been circumstantial evidence - who they use as doctors, who coached them, and what others in the know are saying about them.

riders were scathing of contador and sure enough - he got pinged.
lance's guilt was an open secret for years, to anyone who was willing to read beyond the headlines.

yet Evans has escaped almost all innuendo and is highly praised by his rivals in the peloton for his victories. it's reasonable to interpret such praise for winning pro races as code for "i think he won it clean".

 

[The Hitch]

to me, the best way of identifying dopers has long been circumstantial evidence - who they use as doctors, who coached them, and what others in the know are saying about them.

riders were scathing of contador and sure enough - he got pinged.
lance's guilt was an open secret for years, to anyone who was willing to read beyond the headlines.

yet Evans has escaped almost all innuendo and is highly praised by his rivals in the peloton for his victories. it's reasonable to interpret such praise for winning pro races as code for "i think he won it clean".

You seem to have selectively taken a handful of comments (though you havent told us what these comments are) on Contador and Evans from apparently 1 or 2 pro riders, then procceeded to interpret these comments (whatever they are and whoever made them) as the general perceptions of the entire peloton towards those 2 riders and formed conclusions on that.

What riders were scathing of Contador. Furhtermore which ones were scathing of him before he got caught?

Which of these riders then praised Evans? Do these riders have some sort of history in praising clean riders and refusing to praise doped ones?

How do you explain away positive comments riders have towards say Menchov or Cunego.

And how would these riders even know if Evans is clean to start with?

no offence, but your theory makes absolutely no sense. There arent more people praising Evans than other riders, if there were that wouldnt mean they thought he was clean and if they did, they wouldn't really know if he was clean.

 

[Ferminal]

Porte knows he's clean.

 

[delbified]

@ the hitch - i'm not claiming to know whether Evans is clean or not. i'm saying that there is a conspicuous absence of circumstantial evidence in support of any theory that he has doped, other than strong performances.

i believe - and this just a personal belief - that while people can be pathological liars, including on their own doping history - there are limits to how far even a pathological liar can go with denials. case in point - Lance favoured the "i've never tested positive" line. correct me here, but he never had the audacity to come out and pro-actively rubbish dopers.

Evans is much more relaxed than Lance was in this regard. while he doesn't make it a theme - which i believe is understandable - he has spoken fairly openly about his disdain for doping. he does not strike me as the sort of personality who is comfortable with that type of deceit. quite the opposite - he has a lot of trouble discussing issues he is uncomfortable with, such as interpersonal matters with his (former) team.

i think it was Michael Barry who said he didn't get any advantage out of doping, due to the additional stress offsetting any physiological benefits. there is good evidence Lance had a particular character and personality that allowed him to shut that out - he didn't seem to lose sleep over his doping and lies.

Evans strikes me as about as far removed from that type of personality as you can get. yet of all the matters which seem to stress him out and irk him, he is very straightforward and relaxed when addressing doping. i think there's only one clear and obvious explanation for that.

obviously this is all conjecture - but so is arguing that his performances were too strong to be clean.

 

[The Hitch]

@ the hitch - i'm not claiming to know whether Evans is clean or not. i'm saying that there is a conspicuous absence of circumstantial evidence in support of any theory that he has doped, other than strong performances.

i believe - and this just a personal belief - that while people can be pathological liars, including on their own doping history - there are limits to how far even a pathological liar can go with denials. case in point - Lance favoured the "i've never tested positive" line. correct me here, but he never had the audacity to come out and pro-actively rubbish dopers.

Evans is much more relaxed than Lance was in this regard. while he doesn't make it a theme - which i believe is understandable - he has spoken fairly openly about his disdain for doping. he does not strike me as the sort of personality who is comfortable with that type of deceit. quite the opposite - he has a lot of trouble discussing issues he is uncomfortable with, such as interpersonal matters with his (former) team.

i think it was Michael Barry who said he didn't get any advantage out of doping, due to the additional stress offsetting any physiological benefits. there is good evidence Lance had a particular character and personality that allowed him to shut that out - he didn't seem to lose sleep over his doping and lies.

Evans strikes me as about as far removed from that type of personality as you can get. yet of all the matters which seem to stress him out and irk him, he is very straightforward and relaxed when addressing doping. i think there's only one clear and obvious explanation for that.

obvious this is all conjecture - but so is arguing that his performances were too strong to be clean.

There have been hundreds of dopers in cycling of which Lance is one. When assessing immunity or impunity, Armstrong becomes especially relevant because he was the biggest fish and had the biggest fall so is worth assessing more than the others.

But when it comes to merely comparing characters there is nothing about Lance that makes him stand out. He was a doper that had that personality and attitude, other dopers had a different attitude. Some are jerks some are nice. Some talk a lot some are quiet. Plenty of people with Evans character have doped. So one cant just argue that someone may be clean because their attitude is different to lance. Contadors is different to lance. Landis was different to Lance.

The only thing about someones attitude that one can use to argue that they are clean is an anti doping stance, or their reaction to events anyway. Evans, even though he if clean, was basically robbed of most of his career, (all the wins he would have had), never did show that. In fact hes paisans with plenty of dopers or doping ds's like andy rhys.

In the 2000's evans would have had to be massively anti doping in order to not touch drugs himself. As bro deal pointed out many times, if he was clean, then even a minor drug program would have turned him into a multiple gt winner and cycling legend. He obviously had the will to win and train himself past the pain barrier day after day. So any anti doping stance would have to be significantly greater for Evans to stop him from doping than it is for anyone else who isnt fighting for the tour de france.

yet this amazingly potent anti doping stance that he allegedly holds, in secret, which he held on to throughout his career at the expense of untold glory, sums of money etc, has not kept him from being close to other dopers or from even a few months ago using lance armstrong's 1999 comeback as a model he wants to follow.
Doesn't really make sense to me.

 

[Ripper]

Silly it may be, borderline troll even, but worthwhile certainly. I've asked before about this lengthy, no-name virus that has blighted Cadel for a decent chunk of last season and much of this, now its gone and he's mixing it again? I just expected it to be oneof the main topics post-race but instead yet again it's a dreary deconstruction of Sky. Just demonstrable of the selective nature of the conversation in this place.

At least they gave Froome's a name.

Froome's issue is related to a parasite, no?

 

[Spider1964]

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2013/05/the-secret-pro-2/

I noticed that Cadel Evans came second on stage 3 of the Giro. Good on him — it’s always good to see him doing well. As I wrote this I thought Cadel’s best days were behind him, but now I see he’s absolutely flying. He’s seemed quite bitter in the bunch lately and has been going around grumbling in Italian and moaning about other teams. He’s always had a chip on his shoulder, but this time it’s much more than a chip, it’s a whole bag of Doritos!

 

[delbified]

He obviously had the will to win and train himself past the pain barrier day after day. So any anti doping stance would have to be significantly greater for Evans to stop him from doping than it is for anyone else who isnt fighting for the tour de france.

in my assessment, his will power is second to none. this is a guy who raced to win the Tour time and time again. i've read this forum and the legions of posts by members writing him off, urging him to target the classics or the Giro or Vuelta. he faltered again and again - but he remained steadfast in targeting the Tour until he finally won it in 2011.

does he have a special ability to withstand the temptations of doping? absolutely.

do i know he is clean, that he channeled that will power for that purpose? again, no i don't.

you ask how he was able to match dopers? i agree this is difficult to explain. the obvious answer is that he doped. but Evans is rumoured to have the, or amongst the most impressive physiological test results ever recorded at the Aus Institute of Sport. he was picked out from a young age as a talent among talents. Lance wasn't. we know Lance's figures were not extraordinary. there's a difference.

but he is remarkably free of any links to doping. where are the connections to doping doctors? the suspicious blood values? the huge turnarounds in form after rest days? they aren't there.