Cadel Evans is a Clean Champion

[Spider1964]

Why would it be an indication of not doping? He came 3rd in a long grand tour tt at the age of 37.

I do not consider coming 3rd in a (very) weak field of TT'ers (grand tour or not) evidence or suspicion of doping. A 37 year old doing this does not look out of the ordinary to me. You obviously are of a different opinion, an opinion to which you are most welcome.

Spider's case is based on a spurious definition of "know", like what is the definition of "is".

off to philosophy 101 for you Spider. we are just using the norm in Anglophone rhetoric and dialogue.

you should do yourself a favour and stay out of the Clinic

Blackcat, please spare me the condescension. Of all the people in this forum to hand out lessons, rhetorical or otherwise, you would be the last person that I avail myself of. And you know what? Spider refuses to enter into a battle of wits with an un-armed man.

But while we're handing out lessons, you have a "shift" key, how about using it at the start of your paragraphs.

 

[Samson777]

I do not consider coming 3rd in a (very) weak field of TT'ers (grand tour or not) evidence or suspicion of doping. A 37 year old doing this does not look out of the ordinary to me.

Compared to what? Horner?

 

[Spider1964]

Compared to what? Horner?

Horner is 42, 43 in October. No comparison in my book.

Are you saying that Evans has never had a decent TT?

 

[Digger]

Horner is 42, 43 in October. No comparison in my book.

Are you saying that Evans has never had a decent TT?

Yes. And in my opinion he was doped for them.

 

[Ferminal]

Yeh it wasn't a great performance but not Polsa "no bags" style, too early for that. Grappa will reveal all. Funny as **** (not for those who crashed) if BMC rode like crazy for two weeks for a man who knew he never had a chance.

 

[darwin553]

Why would it be an indication of not doping? He came 3rd in a long grand tour tt at the age of 37.

It is Evans we are talking about here not a Horner type increase in performance where he came from the clouds to win

 

[The Hitch]

I do not consider coming 3rd in a (very) weak field of TT'ers (grand tour or not) evidence or suspicion of doping.
A 37 year old doing this does not look out of the ordinary to me. You obviously are of a different opinion, an opinion to which you are most welcome.

Eh excuse me?

Did I say it was out of the ordinary

You implied the performance was so weak it was suggestive of cleanliness.

All I did was challenge that ridiculous assertion that a rider finishing 1 place lower than the bookmakers had him, still on the podium, of a gt stage, at the age of 37 was anywhere near the weak performance you are extremely dishonestly trying to promote it as. But you countered with some super strawman and try to make out like I'm accusing cadels performance of being too suspicious.

Saying the performance was nowhere near as bad as you made it out /= as saying it was out of order. Jeez

 

[The Hitch]

It is Evans we are talking about here not a Horner type increase in performance where he came from the clouds to win

So you think Evans performance was so bad it proves he's clean?

 

[The Hitch]

against such notable TT'ers as...

Have a read through the discussion and see if you really meant to write this.

In the meantime this " average tt field" argument is getting tiring.

The average race has an average field. By definition. If Evans had beaten Martin or cancellara we would mention that. Them not being there does not suddenly make the performance poor.
We already know who was in the race thank you very much. Our comments have already accounted for the competition, don't need to.be reminded - oh so and so wasn't there.

Evans tt ability has always been tragically overestimated by the aggressive packs of Evans fans who have always in my eyes made some of the sky defenders look like saints. In all his years as a gt rider he has 1 tt win retroactively given to him.
Now at an age when most gt riders have lost their power, he comes 3rd in a tt which is above his average gt tt finish, and they begin to act like it's a performance so weak it rules out doping.

 

[darwin553]

So you think Evans performance was so bad it proves he's clean?

No it just wasn't out of the ordinary

 

[darwin553]

Evans tt ability has always been tragically overestimated by the aggressive packs of Evans fans who have always in my eyes made some of the sky defenders look like saints.

I didn't realise the course was so hilly. So it didn't come as a surprise that Evans got the time he did. Actually to be fair he arguably did just as good if not better than one would expect. It was just that Uran rode out of his skin.

I don't think anyone can refute the fact that Evans is a better follower than leader. Not saying he can't lead, especially when it comes to a slight uphill finish which is less than 1km he seems to thrive but on a sustained climb to expect him to gain time on most of his rivals is just not to be expected.

 

[The Hitch]

No it just wasn't out of the ordinary

And who said it was out of the ordinary?

 

[Spider1964]

Eh excuse me?

Did I say it was out of the ordinary

You implied the performance was so weak it was suggestive of cleanliness.

All I did was challenge that ridiculous assertion that a rider finishing 1 place lower than the bookmakers had him, still on the podium, of a gt stage, at the age of 37 was anywhere near the weak performance you are extremely dishonestly trying to promote it as. But you countered with some super strawman and try to make out like I'm accusing cadels performance of being too suspicious.

Saying the performance was nowhere near as bad as you made it out /= as saying it was out of order. Jeez

Spare me the conjecture.

What you imply does not necessarily have any basis on what I assert.....

That Evans TT is no indicator of doping... Or cleanliness. Simples. Not (to quote your good self) "ridiculous" "extremely dishonest" or any other hyperbole you want to throw around.

And IMO it was a weak TT field. Bookmakers opinions being thrown into the equation does nothing to validate your point.

 

[Samson777]

Yes. And in my opinion he was doped for them.

This. 10 char

 

[whittashau]

I still see a lot about Cadel being an example of a clean champion. Utter BS. Just look at the Tour in 05:

DSQ Lance Armstrong (USA) Discovery Channel 86h 15' 02"
2 Ivan Basso (ITA) Team CSC +4' 40"
DSQ Jan Ullrich (GER) T-Mobile +6' 21"
4 Francisco Mancebo (ESP) Illes Balears-Caisse d'Epargne +9' 59"
5 Alexandre Vinokourov (KAZ) T-Mobile +11' 01"
DSQ Levi Leipheimer (USA) Gerolsteiner +11' 21"
7 Michael Rasmussen (DEN) Rabobank +11' 33"
8 Cadel Evans (AUS) Davitamon-Lotto +11' 55"
9 Floyd Landis (USA) Phonak +12' 44"
10 Óscar Pereiro (ESP) Phonak +16' 04"
[hide]Final general classification (11–154)
Rank Name Team Time
11 Christophe Moreau (FRA) Crédit Agricole +16' 26"
12 Yaroslav Popovych (UKR) Discovery Channel +19' 02"
13 Eddy Mazzoleni (ITA) Lampre +21' 06"
DSQ George Hincapie (USA) Discovery Channel +23' 40"
15 Haimar Zubeldia (ESP) Euskaltel +23' 43"
16 Jörg Jaksche (GER) Liberty Seguros +24' 07"
17 Bobby Julich (USA) Team CSC +24' 08"
18 Óscar Sevilla (ESP) T-Mobile +27' 45"
19 Andrey Kashechkin (KAZ) Crédit Agricole +28' 04"
20 Giuseppe Guerini (ITA) T-Mobile +33' 02"
21 Carlos Sastre (ESP) Team CSC +34' 24"
22 Xabier Zandio (ESP) Illes Balears-Caisse d'Epargne +36' 20"
23 Leonardo Piepoli (SUI) Saunier Duval +36' 20"
24 Michael Boogerd (NED) Rabobank +38' 29"
25 Paolo Savoldelli (ITA) Discovery Channel +44' 30"
26 Georg Totschnig (AUT) Gerolsteiner +49' 14"
27 Mikel Astarloza (ESP) Ag2r +54' 03"
28 Laurent Brochard (FRA) Bouygues Telecom +55' 29"
29 Sandy Casar (FRA) Française des Jeux +56' 47"
30 José Bento Azevedo (POR) Discovery Channel +59' 48"
31 Alberto Contador (ESP) Liberty Seguros +1h 03' 25"
32 Stefano Garzelli (ITA) Liquigas +1h 04' 49"
33 Chris Horner (USA) Saunier Duval +1h 07' 57"
34 Stéphane Goubert (FRA) Ag2r +1h 10' 53"
35 José-Luis Rubiera (ESP) Discovery Channel +1h 11' 48"
36 Pietro Caucchioli (ITA) Crédit Agricole +1h 16' 21"
37 Maxim Iglinsky (KAZ) Domina Vacanze +1h 18' 44"
38 Jörg Ludewig (GER) Domina Vacanze +1h 19' 05"
39 Axel Merckx (BEL) Davitamon-Lotto +1h 20' 15"
40 Marcos Antonio Serrano (ESP) Liberty Seguros +1h 21' 31"
41 Michael Rogers (AUS) Quick Step +1h 24' 32"
42 Alexandre Moos (SUI) Phonak +1h 25' 35"
43 Jérôme Pineau (FRA) Bouygues Telecom +1h 31' 38"
44 Cédric Vasseur (FRA) Cofidis +1h 33' 17"
45 Roberto Heras (ESP) Liberty Seguros +1h 38' 33"
46 Pierrick Fédrigo (FRA) Bouygues Telecom +1h 41' 14"
47 Franco Pellizotti (ITA) Liquigas +1h 41' 38"
48 Egoi Martínez (ESP) Euskaltel +1h 42' 29"
49 José Enrique Gutierrez (ESP) Phonak +1h 42' 35"
50 Vladimir Karpets (RUS) Illes Balears-Caisse d'Epargne +1h 43' 45"

The top 50. It would be lucky if there is 10 clean riders there, even 5 might be pushing it. Yet Evans is 9th. And everyone ahead of him is a certified cheat.

He couldn't have finished in that position while clean. Full stop

 

[Benotti69]

I still see a lot about Cadel being an example of a clean champion. Utter BS. Just look at the Tour in 05:

DSQ Lance Armstrong (USA) Discovery Channel 86h 15' 02"
2 Ivan Basso (ITA) Team CSC +4' 40"
DSQ Jan Ullrich (GER) T-Mobile +6' 21"
4 Francisco Mancebo (ESP) Illes Balears-Caisse d'Epargne +9' 59"
5 Alexandre Vinokourov (KAZ) T-Mobile +11' 01"
DSQ Levi Leipheimer (USA) Gerolsteiner +11' 21"
7 Michael Rasmussen (DEN) Rabobank +11' 33"
8 Cadel Evans (AUS) Davitamon-Lotto +11' 55"
9 Floyd Landis (USA) Phonak +12' 44"
10 Óscar Pereiro (ESP) Phonak +16' 04"
[hide]Final general classification (11–154)
Rank Name Team Time
11 Christophe Moreau (FRA) Crédit Agricole +16' 26"
12 Yaroslav Popovych (UKR) Discovery Channel +19' 02"
13 Eddy Mazzoleni (ITA) Lampre +21' 06"
DSQ George Hincapie (USA) Discovery Channel +23' 40"
15 Haimar Zubeldia (ESP) Euskaltel +23' 43"
16 Jörg Jaksche (GER) Liberty Seguros +24' 07"
17 Bobby Julich (USA) Team CSC +24' 08"
18 Óscar Sevilla (ESP) T-Mobile +27' 45"
19 Andrey Kashechkin (KAZ) Crédit Agricole +28' 04"
20 Giuseppe Guerini (ITA) T-Mobile +33' 02"
21 Carlos Sastre (ESP) Team CSC +34' 24"
22 Xabier Zandio (ESP) Illes Balears-Caisse d'Epargne +36' 20"
23 Leonardo Piepoli (SUI) Saunier Duval +36' 20"
24 Michael Boogerd (NED) Rabobank +38' 29"
25 Paolo Savoldelli (ITA) Discovery Channel +44' 30"
26 Georg Totschnig (AUT) Gerolsteiner +49' 14"
27 Mikel Astarloza (ESP) Ag2r +54' 03"
28 Laurent Brochard (FRA) Bouygues Telecom +55' 29"
29 Sandy Casar (FRA) Française des Jeux +56' 47"
30 José Bento Azevedo (POR) Discovery Channel +59' 48"
31 Alberto Contador (ESP) Liberty Seguros +1h 03' 25"
32 Stefano Garzelli (ITA) Liquigas +1h 04' 49"
33 Chris Horner (USA) Saunier Duval +1h 07' 57"
34 Stéphane Goubert (FRA) Ag2r +1h 10' 53"
35 José-Luis Rubiera (ESP) Discovery Channel +1h 11' 48"
36 Pietro Caucchioli (ITA) Crédit Agricole +1h 16' 21"
37 Maxim Iglinsky (KAZ) Domina Vacanze +1h 18' 44"
38 Jörg Ludewig (GER) Domina Vacanze +1h 19' 05"
39 Axel Merckx (BEL) Davitamon-Lotto +1h 20' 15"
40 Marcos Antonio Serrano (ESP) Liberty Seguros +1h 21' 31"
41 Michael Rogers (AUS) Quick Step +1h 24' 32"
42 Alexandre Moos (SUI) Phonak +1h 25' 35"
43 Jérôme Pineau (FRA) Bouygues Telecom +1h 31' 38"
44 Cédric Vasseur (FRA) Cofidis +1h 33' 17"
45 Roberto Heras (ESP) Liberty Seguros +1h 38' 33"
46 Pierrick Fédrigo (FRA) Bouygues Telecom +1h 41' 14"
47 Franco Pellizotti (ITA) Liquigas +1h 41' 38"
48 Egoi Martínez (ESP) Euskaltel +1h 42' 29"
49 José Enrique Gutierrez (ESP) Phonak +1h 42' 35"
50 Vladimir Karpets (RUS) Illes Balears-Caisse d'Epargne +1h 43' 45"

The top 50. It would be lucky if there is 10 clean riders there, even 5 might be pushing it. Yet Evans is 9th. And everyone ahead of him is a certified cheat.

He couldn't have finished in that position while clean. Full stop

Cannot see anyone in that 50 that i would consider clean. Why does anyone think things are different in 2014?

 

[BigMac]

Cannot see anyone in that 50 that i would consider clean. Why does anyone think things are different in 2014?

The astonishing majority of those names are long gone, so why should we not at least believe the panorama is different?

Two years ago in my class, there were this condescending small group of brats who cheated in almost every test. To keep up with them and in order not to be considered inferior or dumber, the majority of the students decided to start cheating as well. It was full banana republic. However, once they left and went to another school, it all went back to normal. No more cheating. It was all an honest thing again once for all.


Cool story eh?

 

[The Hitch]

as an allegory it has its flaws.

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

Like this kinda sad list I stumbled upon recently:

http://cypresstrees.blogspot.be/2012/07/revised-tour-de-france-top-10-clean.html

"2003: 1. Haimar Zubeldia"
"Cadel Evans almost beat the cheater Contador"
"For instance, Levi Leipheimer took some Claratin in 1996 and got busted for the ephedrine in it. I still think he's a clean racer"
"why did Giuseppe Guerini have those dry spells between his good finishes? Sick of losing to cheaters, but pulled back to the Tour for the romance of it?"

The guy also dropped Cunego from the 2011 Tour for whatever reason

 

[BigMac]

as an allegory it has its flaws.

Luls.

10char

 

[Benotti69]

The astonishing majority of those names are long gone, so why should we not at least believe the panorama is different?

What changed the panorama? Why dont you check out who all the doctors were for those teams, the DS for those teams and see how many are still in the sport and then ask yourself, how can the panorama change!

Two years ago in my class, there were this condescending small group of brats who cheated in almost every test. To keep up with them and in order not to be considered inferior or dumber, the majority of the students decided to start cheating as well. It was full banana republic. However, once they left and went to another school, it all went back to normal. No more cheating. It was all an honest thing again once for all.

No one in the sport has moved school, no matter what the Cooksons, Vaughters or Brailsfords would love us to believe.

Cool story eh?

Meh...

 

[red_flanders]

Like this kinda sad list I stumbled upon recently:

http://cypresstrees.blogspot.be/2012/07/revised-tour-de-france-top-10-clean.html

"2003: 1. Haimar Zubeldia"
"Cadel Evans almost beat the cheater Contador"
"For instance, Levi Leipheimer took some Claratin in 1996 and got busted for the ephedrine in it. I still think he's a clean racer"
"why did Giuseppe Guerini have those dry spells between his good finishes? Sick of losing to cheaters, but pulled back to the Tour for the romance of it?"

The guy also dropped Cunego from the 2011 Tour for whatever reason

Admirable effort but comical. Andy Schleck? Jose Maria Jiminez? Long list of dopers on his clean list...

 

[The Hitch]

Admirable effort but comical. Andy Schleck? Jose Maria Jiminez? Long list of dopers on his clean list...

Its some idiot with a blog listing the riders he likes and cheers for then trying to sell it off dishonestly as him supporting clean riders.

 

[senatorrick]

If Cadel had a super strong Sanchez today would the outcome have been different ?? Does anyone think he could have passed Uran??

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

Would've been closer
Still not near Uran