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Cadel Evan's swipe at Valverde

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To whom it may concern

I have read and heard about Valvs. cheating for quite a long time. He has sold himself to Spain his team and other riders. That is good and honest.
I liked seeing Contador help him out, it is OK they are friends and compaitriots.
It doesn't change the fact that he is banned from Italian races.
If Valverde is clean he needs to sue CONI for keeping him out of the Tour.
He hasn't which with all his other legal manuvering keeps competing appears to be a sly little athlete. If he cheated in Vuelta TT he needs a penalty.
He is just too cute. Reminds me of Basso.
I would rather watch him then Cadel he is more exciting.
Cadel however needs to be respected.
 
Hmmm ... where to start, where to start!

elapid said:
Twittering is just so annoying.

Agreed!

elapid said:
As for Valverde - he doped in the past (with probably every other top contender). I have long stated my views on the current CONI case - I do not think Valverde should be sanctioned despite his obvious guilt because he is just a scapegoat for the whole Operation Puerto fiasco. Get everyone or get no one.

The only problem here is that, it's not an insinuation that Valv-Piti has to deal with. There is apparently blood with his DNA written all over it. A bit hard to to tag someone when there actually is hard proof (and yes, I am assuming CONI has the goods). I'd say Valv-Piti is no where near the scapegoat of, let's say, Jan Ullrich?

cyclingmad said:
Valverde is the bigger loser that is for sure. Valverde wins a number of big races every year. May even win the world champs this year to go on the great track record ... Thinking that Valverde is doping any more than Evans at the moment is ridiculous.

Valv-Piti is a bigger loser, and a stinking vat of donkey turd mixed with gravy. Why is it ridiculous to think Valv-Piti is doing something different than Evans?

msjett said:
Oh this is hilarious, I wouldn't have thought the comment on twitter was worth a second glance. But here it is getting more analysis then a Lance Armstrong urine sample. But honestly who really gives a rats what it means. :rolleyes:

In essence, you are correct. But we like to analyze everything, no?
:D
 
Mongol_Waaijer said:
Never understood why Evans gets so much flak (esp here in Holland)

Is it the high pitched voice?

If he doesn't attack he is boring and a wheel sucker
If he does attack he is not good enough and shouldn't bother

For the record if there is one "veteran" GC guy in the peloton who has consistently (since his early days at the AIS and in MTB) demonstrated himself to be a supreme talent (VO2 max round 90 I heard?) and performed at a high level without ever doing anything in the "too good to be true" enhanced performance category.

He isn't an ex-classics man who lost weight (or just said he did) and then started climbing and TTing like a freak, and to my knowledge he has never been implicated in any doping scandals. How many current GC riders can claim that? Hell some of them even have books written about their misdemeanors!

Let's give the guy a break - if i'd just lost to Valv.piti (banned in Italy) i'd be pretty annoyed too.

Basically, I agree with you :D :D
 
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If Cadel has any pr skill or skilled people around him he will stop the bleeding soon. Is he mad at the TDF,Giro, Vuelta, Lotto, Mavic support, Valverde,Gesink, his director,team mates, UCI? He is adding to his rap, right or wrong as a crybaby,a softee, I don't think it's true over his whole career but he is going to go the way of Lemond and destroying all the good will and fan support he has. Filling everybody's hankie with his tears of frustration along the way. Lemond was probably just as big a baby then as he is now. Cable TV,twitter,20 more cycling mags,youtube and just more information about cycling in the general public have made Lemond appear to be a bitter baby and has tarnished his company and market value. Cadel if you are clean,cool. If you think you have been wronged don't try it in the court of public opinion because you are getting wasted. I live in a city with 8 million people,4 major daily newspapers and most major cycling events available on TV, they are non stop calling you a pussy.Learn from Jens don't belly ache and your life may get easier. Check your own tire glue at worlds.
 
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Cadel is a very consistent performer. I hope he finds a new team - one that knows how to win a GT. Lotto's team TT performance was terrible and watching them warm up only three of the riders were giving it full gas during the warm up (including Cadel.)

Don't forget his 2007 Pro Tour win. Personally, I worry about the guy and hope that he figures a constructive way to deal with the pressure. He looked very worn at the Tour.

Popo was a bad pickup for Lotto as he apparently only performs well under the JB blood doping program.
 
drfunk000 said:
Cadel is a very consistent performer. I hope he finds a new team - one that knows how to win a GT. Lotto's team TT performance was terrible and watching them warm up only three of the riders were giving it full gas during the warm up (including Cadel.)

Don't forget his 2007 Pro Tour win. Personally, I worry about the guy and hope that he figures a constructive way to deal with the pressure. He looked very worn at the Tour.

Popo was a bad pickup for Lotto as he apparently only performs well under the JB blood doping program.

Agreed! Popo is a useless tit, and the warm stuff was just painfull.
 
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Hugh Januss said:
Your last point though is why I really responded this time. People say this all the time like it proves anything. Guys just look different when riding hard, some are smooth as silk right up until they blow and others are all knees and elbows as they ride off up the road. If the ones who look so at ease aren't hurting why don't they ride faster and increase their margin by that much more. They all look to me like they left it on the road when they get to a summit finish (except for the autobus).

Because oxygen debt isn't what is limiting their performance. ;)

The guys that are doped up on EPO/blood transfusions are maxed out on oxygen delivery, and thus their performance is limited by something else. If you look back at video of the pre-EPO era, everyone looked like they were gasping for air in the mountains. Post-EPO, a lot of people don't look this way.
 
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fatandfast said:
If Cadel has any pr skill or skilled people around him he will stop the bleeding soon. Is he mad at the TDF,Giro, Vuelta, Lotto, Mavic support, Valverde,Gesink, his director,team mates, UCI? He is adding to his rap, right or wrong as a crybaby,a softee, I don't think it's true over his whole career but he is going to go the way of Lemond and destroying all the good will and fan support he has. Filling everybody's hankie with his tears of frustration along the way. Lemond was probably just as big a baby then as he is now. Cable TV,twitter,20 more cycling mags,youtube and just more information about cycling in the general public have made Lemond appear to be a bitter baby and has tarnished his company and market value. Cadel if you are clean,cool. If you think you have been wronged don't try it in the court of public opinion because you are getting wasted. I live in a city with 8 million people,4 major daily newspapers and most major cycling events available on TV, they are non stop calling you a pussy.Learn from Jens don't belly ache and your life may get easier. Check your own tire glue at worlds.

As soon as you called Lemond a big baby it said a lot about yourself. So dumb three week American cycling "fans" think Lemond is bitter and a cry baby. Who cares what these thick as bricks cycling "fans" believe. I commend Cadel Evans for his public comments about a known doper being allowed to compete at the Vuelta. I'd like to hear a lot more of this "whining" from the peleton.
 
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jk, calling Lemond a baby is for sure my opinion, The manufacturing,distribution and retail components of his former company disagree (and their bank accounts)They think he is not only petty but very bad for the sport and the biz of selling cycling. Most people don't have the time,energy or interest to ponder hcrit levels of some guy from Spain. Long public yarns on the subject only make people tune out more. Punishment of racers that have broken rules should be done by a governing body of the sport. Not by a lynch mob of portly ex pros who feel their legacy is tarnished. The majority of people buying a Lemond bike are looking at the group and wheels, maybe paint quality, they don't give a **** if somebody is gassed in the pro ranks. Every yellow wrist band is a connection to pro racing, yes remote but still a connection to a story of a bike racer. Lemond has great stories behind his legend. I don't share your view that Greg and Cadel will live in history as the guys that fought for a clean peleton. Maybe the reason Trek ditched him is because he spent more time trying to figure why his every record was shattered than he did promoting cycling and his product line. You are right when Cadel retires he can sell tea bags, maybe Lance or some other more"pick your battle" pros will let him sell at one of their shops. Lemond has a chance once or twice a year to say"I was first, I did it after being shot with a gun, remember my son on the podium?" That's still there but he would rather talk and scribble about Lance and Alberto's blood and he knows a secret. Cadel learn that that old **** doesn't know any secrets.
 
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fatandfast said:
jk, calling Lemond a baby is for sure my opinion, The manufacturing,distribution and retail components of his former company disagree (and their bank accounts)They think he is not only petty but very bad for the sport and the biz of selling cycling. Most people don't have the time,energy or interest to ponder hcrit levels of some guy from Spain. Long public yarns on the subject only make people tune out more. Punishment of racers that have broken rules should be done by a governing body of the sport. Not by a lynch mob of portly ex pros who feel their legacy is tarnished. The majority of people buying a Lemond bike are looking at the group and wheels, maybe paint quality, they don't give a **** if somebody is gassed in the pro ranks. Every yellow wrist band is a connection to pro racing, yes remote but still a connection to a story of a bike racer. Lemond has great stories behind his legend. I don't share your view that Greg and Cadel will live in history as the guys that fought for a clean peleton. Maybe the reason Trek ditched him is because he spent more time trying to figure why his every record was shattered than he did promoting cycling and his product line. You are right when Cadel retires he can sell tea bags, maybe Lance or some other more"pick your battle" pros will let him sell at one of their shops. Lemond has a chance once or twice a year to say"I was first, I did it after being shot with a gun, remember my son on the podium?" That's still there but he would rather talk and scribble about Lance and Alberto's blood and he knows a secret. Cadel learn that that old **** doesn't know any secrets.

I can tell you that knowing Lance Armstrong is a doping, lying fraud and terrible individual would stop me from ever buying a Trek bike or Sram groupset. The LA myth certainly doesn't sell bikes to me. On the other hand I would love to own a Lemond bike. Trek ditched Lemond because he told the truth about LA being a doper and put ethics ahead of commercial interest. A fine man that Lemond.
 

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icefire said:
Right, I missed that point. But, do we want public resources devoted to prosecute sports' cheaters? Why don't they prosecute those who score goals with "God's hand" in the World Cup finals?

Sports' cheaters should only be prosecuted if they are paid to lose and there are bets on it.

Cadel Evans does not fall into this category :D He took the Vuelta very seriously -as Basso and Gesink did- and I really appreciate him for that. Otherwise, it would have been just a local event for local riders
IMO- there is a difference between cheating and doping.

Doping has the potential to kill or cause serious health problems and has a spiral effect on sports -
"I know from the way they ride the next day that they are taking dope. I don’t want to have to take it – I have too much respect for my body – but if I don’t win a big event soon, I shall have to start taking it." Tom Simpson!!

Yes - the sports administrators should be the first to enforce penalties but Governments have a role and a responsibility too.
Although my view is that should be more for those who participate in the organisation and supply of PED's like rogue Doctors and trainers and Team Managers who initiate doping rings.

As an aside - doping on a continuous basis could constitute willful fraud - the same laws that apply to 'white collar' crimes could be utilised.
 
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Not sure we disagree on much, don't think that calling Lemond and trying to out him was cool or legal. Not sure what was said to friends and doctors on a death bed can be revised because you turned out to survive and went on to achieve further greatness. I was interested in the new personality that fans and the press are giving Cadel because his season is not going as well as he would like.Standing and fighting on principal are qualities to admire, Cadel should have done a shirt grab and a movie slap to the guy changing his wheel, He should of at the finish line slapped the **** out of Gesink, He should refuse to ride in the bus with obviously lesser riders who only give him frustration to carry up the hill. Read books about rising and fallen athletes and they say fan support and perception help or hurt a lot depending which way things are going. You may be right and all these straws won't break the camels back.
 
biker jk said:
As soon as you called Lemond a big baby it said a lot about yourself. So dumb three week American cycling "fans" think Lemond is bitter and a cry baby. Who cares what these thick as bricks cycling "fans" believe. I commend Cadel Evans for his public comments about a known doper being allowed to compete at the Vuelta. I'd like to hear a lot more of this "whining" from the peleton.

+1 agreed.hopefully some other riders might speak out aswell..
 
icefire said:
I do believe sport must be clean and cheaters must be banned from playing the game. But most discussions regarding this issue tend to mix aspects of sports rules and state law in a dangerous way.

If I kick someone on the street and break his leg, I can be taken to court. If I do that playing a football competition, I can just be banned from playing a few matches, but cannot be taken to court. There is a clear separation between sport and state in this case.

Unfortunately, this is not the case for doping. I can consume cocaine or any other drug and I cannot be taken to court for that (at least in my country). I'm free to harm myself. However, I cannot sell cocaine, and I cannot keep at home 1 kg of cocaine claiming that is for my own use. I'm not free to harm others' health.

If the use of drugs in sport is against the sport rules, it must be prosecuted at the expense of the sports authorities (federations, Olympic committee) and competition organisers. I don't want taxpayer money being spent on this. And I don't want Congress and Government (particularly in a democratic country) surrender to the demands of private organisations such as sport federations or the Olympic Committee to enact laws on the subject and treat cheaters like criminals.

That being said, OP was a public case against a doctor for bad medical practices. He was just accused of knowingly harming the health of others. Form the point of view of the law, his patients were victims even if they knew what they were doing (or intending to do), and their identities should have never been published.

Unfortunately, the Spanish Justice did a very bad job allowing the leak of some identities (only cyclists, as some have said) and the scandal was served.

In the Spring of 2008, the Spanish Government asked all sport federations whose teams or athletes had not qualified for the Beijing Olympics to renew their governing bodies (following an agreement between the Government and the Olympic sports federations) to prepare as soon as possible for the next Olympic cycle. This included the football federation, but UEFA told the Government that if elections for president of the federation were forced the national football team would be banned from the Eurocup. If you remember the result of Eurocup 2008 you guess what was the decision.

I'm sorry, but if sports authorities think they are beyond common law and Government agreements their activities should be banned. They should run their private games and enforce their private rules with their private resources. And they should be sued if they don't abide by the state's laws.

I'm not defending cheaters. I'm defending a clear separation between sport and state and the submission of sport to state's law. Under such premises, if CONI has blood samples from OP, CONI should be sued for the illegal obtention of those samples. Yes, I know, it would be easier to sue the Vatican Church for whatever.

And if CONI, UCI or WADA want to catch Valv.piti or any other cheater, send the vampires to wherever he is every day, pay the vampires with your own money and do not involve the Police or the state's Justice in your private game. And do not complain because the Government and the state's Justice does not help you.

I think frankly you are mixing an Orwelian horror, subtle regime take-over of the LAW, with simple bad legal setup and political decision making on the part of Spain, which, in the OP case in general and in the Valv-Piti (vs, Basso) case in particular, has led to two measures being applied to the same weight within a profession that trancends international juristictions. Not fair.

Or at least if Spain is going to have its own setup and Italy (but also France, Germany, Begium, etc.) theirs, then each rider should be held accountable according to the laws of those individual states in which he practices his profession. In other words, ok, Spain could not prosecute it's riders for something that in Italy was condemnable under the law because in Spain it was not? So Spain should have faught just as hard to allow Basso to have raced on its soil, as it has done to clear its star from the "nefarious" conduct of a CONI that had the gall to persue an investigation which led to irrefutable proof that Valverde was doping with Fuentes.

Nonesense right? Of course it is, but it is even more absurd that Spain has not demonstrated the political will to make retroactive its new doping law policy and so make what should have been naturally applicable to the OP case (because it is against the rules of the athlete's professions, and because a few have in their countries taken the fall for many).

This is what this boils down to political will, but Spain of course, in adition to the UCI, have demostrated no such political will, because both contrary to the natioanl image and against the economic interests of the sporting establishments.

That's what is so sickening about the entire OP affair: that just a few have had to pay for the sins of many and that Spain and the UCI are politically essentially covering-up what could be the most sensational doping scandal in the history of sport. These modern State and governing aparatuses are thus protecting the mere economic interests of the the behind the scenes powers that be and, consequently, the omertà which needs to be destroyed if ever cleaner sport is to come about.

So I think your concerns about the LAW are off base, when it is really a political issue and not a legal one. Becuase the momment OP came out, Spain did get around to changing the law because of internal and international pressures given how rediculous the old legal setup was. But that has not led to real justice being done, that is all (not just some) of the guilty being fairly punished, for this scandalous and sickening political reason.

And many a Spainsh editorial in newspapers such as El Pais have said as much with thoughts like: "See there, Italy has the spine to go after its rule breeching athletes, but we in Spain, what do we get - political opposition to our athlete's being punished so as to protect the omertà that covers-up the ill-doers in our sport."

Simple justice for the guilty, that's all. Not the political and legal posturing that this case highlights in regards to how the corruption caused by a conflict of interests is really at the basis of the culture of professional sport in the modern age.
 
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cyclingmad said:
Icefires post makes good points about following state laws. State laws have had more time to mature than many rules and practices involved in trying to prevent doping

Armstrong was treated unfairly to be named as having bags of blood with EPO. I dont like him as a rider at all but this was unfair and you cannot trust these tests as a result.

Riders were named in the Puerto investigation and trial by media has given them no chance to clear there name even if the accusation was unsubstantiated. Fuentes said himself some of the riders named he doesn't work with and they didn't name all of his clients. Anyone could have been involved some accused clearly weren't. In most criminal cases a far greater number of suspects are cleared than convicted why is anyone accused in the Puerto investigation automatically seen as guilty.

Until fair trials and consistent treatment is not applied all testing lacks credibility and there is a unfair competition. You cannot accuse one rider over another of being any more of a cheat unless one rider is proven guilty by fair process.
Fortunately some of the newer rules with the doping passport and retrospective testing have made the gains from doping less than in recent history so the advantage has been reduced.

Can you actually back up the first bold section? Why are the tests unreliable? The tests were made by the LNDD Chatenay Malabray lab to see how much epo usage had deminished after the Festina affair a year prior to when the samples were taken. Note the random samples from the entire population of urine samples given. LA was not picked on, he just happened to have a samples in the collective thay were retested and pronto 6 of the 14 positive were his. The science was sound, the laboratory's integrity and validity is also sound. Care to show some scientific evidence or logic defining possible tampering that would cause a sane person to question why this should be doubted? Research! The tests if they were positive were never going to be sanctionable, but thats not what matters. LA cannot claim he didn't use epo. Soo sad. Too bad.

As for the second bold section. Nice gross generalisation. Try harder next time for something concrete. The third section, accussations...don't make me laugh. That would involve moving away from a keyboard and finding the rider and giving him a verbal lashing. People are discussing and debating here...accusations for the most part require a publication, a news article or a press conference, not the chatter on a forum.
 
A

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Father Jack said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4NZg6Vx2kQ&feature=PlayList&p=C2638256AFE01FBF&index=33

If you take valv.piti out of the equation. It is just history repeating itself.

its always been the same.. how many non spaniards have won recently.. menchov twice and vino...

one of menchovs was an inherited following disqualification.. so essentially, vino in 2006 and menchov in 2007 are the only real blips on the spanish collusion and dirty tactics..

then again, the list of winners is like a whos who of doping.. :/
 
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auscyclefan94 said:
if he goes out and says valverde is a doped up barstarda, then valverde could sue him for defamation of character. That's why very few riders would peak out about LA

So at leat we are free and can call the basterds basterds without being sued*

Here is the Top 3 of the basterds, judged and found guilty by us, the informed Non-Fanboys:

1. Epo-Lance (formerly known as Lance Armstrong). Convicted doper, but denying and lying

2. Valv-Piti (formerly known as Alejandro Valverde). Convicted doper, but denying and lying

3. AC (formerly known as Alberto Contador). Convicted doper, but denying and lying


* Even tough i would like to be sued by one of those "Top-3-Rats"
 
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"That's why very few riders would peak out about LA"

yeah sure you might get sued (or threatened with it, as he rarely actually goes to court)

the worst thing is that Emperor Lance is the biggest bully in the playground, and telling tales to the teachers means you'll get beaten up afterwards...
 
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Galic Ho said:
Can you actually back up the first bold section? Why are the tests unreliable? The tests were made by the LNDD Chatenay Malabray lab to see how much epo usage had deminished after the Festina affair a year prior to when the samples were taken. Note the random samples from the entire population of urine samples given. LA was not picked on, he just happened to have a samples in the collective thay were retested and pronto 6 of the 14 positive were his. The science was sound, the laboratory's integrity and validity is also sound. Care to show some scientific evidence or logic defining possible tampering that would cause a sane person to question why this should be doubted? Research! The tests if they were positive were never going to be sanctionable, but thats not what matters. LA cannot claim he didn't use epo. Soo sad. Too bad.

As for the second bold section. Nice gross generalisation. Try harder next time for something concrete. The third section, accussations...don't make me laugh. That would involve moving away from a keyboard and finding the rider and giving him a verbal lashing. People are discussing and debating here...accusations for the most part require a publication, a news article or a press conference, not the chatter on a forum.

In answer to the first question I personally believe LA probably did dope. The information probably was good The point is that once someone breaks rules like protecting anonymity in a test process they broke rules naming owners of the samples you cant trust this information.
Once you start releasing information like this it deteriorates into now where people are guilty in the public eye by association or there name is on a piece of paper without context. Pat McQuaid was completely offside with LA in 2005 why do they now get on? Why are people not being treated equally?

My point in part to is that during an investigation lots of people are asked questions provide explanation for evidence at times a suspect of crime. The conviction rate compared to the number of people investigated in a lot of crimes is low. For some facts try the following link.
http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/tspfo97.txt

Separately terror suspects is a comparable situation as some get tortured. 2/3rds are found innocent. If some evidence exists doesn't make them guilty by any means.

You are right in point three my comments are poorly written. You can debate the merits of one rider doping versus another but without a credible system you cant be too sure of the guilt or innocence of anyone.

Forming the opinion that someone is cheated out of winning because he is the only clean one being beaten by dopers because some riders had some evidence of doping against them 3 years ago is ridiculous.

Need to put the ghosts of the past behind start afresh with what is happening now.
 
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cyclingmad said:
In answer to the first question I personally believe LA probably did dope. The information probably was good The point is that once someone breaks rules like protecting anonymity in a test process they broke rules naming owners of the samples you cant trust this information.

The laboratory did not leak the information. An l'Equipe journalist heard of the research, received permission from Armstrong to look at his doping tests, and was able to match the doping test numbers to the positives found by the researchers. So Armstrong himself gave permission to the reporter and thus relinquished any rights to anonymity. Furthermore, as this information was not leaked (and the researchers did not know which sample belonged to which cyclist) it does not affect the trustworthiness of the information.
 
icefire said:
Right, I missed that point. But, do we want public resources devoted to prosecute sports' cheaters? Why don't they prosecute those who score goals with "God's hand" in the World Cup finals?

In the U.S. public money is often used to build stadiums, which benefit privately owned teams; so I don't see a problem with using some of those resources to prosecute sports corruption.
 
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BroDeal said:
In the U.S. public money is often used to build stadiums, which benefit privately owned teams; so I don't see a problem with using some of those resources to prosecute sports corruption.

Yes, they do benefit the teams...but the revenue generated from holding sporting events, concerts, etc. at these public funded venues is that they generate good will and a very nice revenue stream in the form of taxes. It is a different situation.
 
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Thanks

elapid said:
The laboratory did not leak the information. An l'Equipe journalist heard of the research, received permission from Armstrong to look at his doping tests, and was able to match the doping test numbers to the positives found by the researchers. So Armstrong himself gave permission to the reporter and thus relinquished any rights to anonymity. Furthermore, as this information was not leaked (and the researchers did not know which sample belonged to which cyclist) it does not affect the trustworthiness of the information.

Thanks for clearing this up. I had been waiting for Armstrong to be caught properly for years and thought this process was done illegally.

If you can show me the details how you found this out I would really appreciate it