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Cadel Evan's swipe at Valverde

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May 18, 2009
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rhubroma said:
You're arrogant. Piti is guiltier than sin, whether found out by his home country or not. End of story.

My comments were about something else entirely.

I was commenting on what Bettini said, not what you said. Your misinterpretation of my post doesn't mean I am arrogant. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Even so, I'm not sure how "conservative" and "PC" go hand in hand in your neck of the woods.

Yes, Valverde was for sure involved in OP but my thoughts on this whole process have been summed up nicely icefire and others on this thread. I am against UCI recognizing investigations/suspensions by foreign federations not conducted in the course of a race. Especially if it is a closed legal matter in another country and evidence has been gathered and used in a manner the way CONI has done. YMMV.
 
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cyclingmad said:
Thanks for clearing this up. I had been waiting for Armstrong to be caught properly for years and thought this process was done illegally.

If you can show me the details how you found this out I would really appreciate it

I'm curious as well about this process that elapid has come across. As I recall, somebody leaked his name/number so the match could be made. Not sure how "proper" that is. Besides, the retesting of the old samples was not done for reto-active suspension or punishment.

As a qualifier, me pointing this out does not mean that I think LA was clean in 99. Just want to clear that up to pre-empt the shytstorm.
 
ChrisE said:
I'm curious as well about this process that elapid has come across. As I recall, somebody leaked his name/number so the match could be made. Not sure how "proper" that is. Besides, the retesting of the old samples was not done for reto-active suspension or punishment.

As I remember it:

When the l'Equipe reporter obtained the results of the research done on the 1998 and 1999 TdF urine samples, there were no names attached to the results. All the samples were labeled with a code. The reporter suspected that there was a good chance that some of the EPO positives belonged to Armstrong, but the only way to prove this would be to match the sample codes to the the codes on Armstrong's doping forms, which were controlled by the UCI. He then came up with a way to obtain the doping forms.

There had long been rumors and insinuations that Armstrong had TUEs for various things like testosterone or even EPO because of his cancer treatment, especially for the 1999 TdF. Armstrong denied this. So the reporter asked Armstrong to prove that he did not have a TUE by giving his permission to the UCI to release one of his 1999 doping forms. Armstrong was willing to do this because he thought it would put to rest the rumors. The UCI then screwed up and released all of Armstrong's doping forms for 1999 instead of just one. The reporter was then able to match Armstrong to six of the positives for EPO.
 
ChrisE said:
I was commenting on what Bettini said, not what you said. Your misinterpretation of my post doesn't mean I am arrogant. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Even so, I'm not sure how "conservative" and "PC" go hand in hand in your neck of the woods.

Yes, Valverde was for sure involved in OP but my thoughts on this whole process have been summed up nicely icefire and others on this thread. I am against UCI recognizing investigations/suspensions by foreign federations not conducted in the course of a race. Especially if it is a closed legal matter in another country and evidence has been gathered and used in a manner the way CONI has done. YMMV.

But CONI simply has asked for and recieved Valverde's OP bloodsack. Because, evidently, there wasn't the political will in Spain (or within the UCI) to investigate.

This isn't about the law, nor is it a problem if, in this particular case, a foreign federation does what needs to be done. When the sport trancends national borders and when some have been condemned because within a different legal structure than Spain. This is not the Inquisition nor a Salem Witch Hunt, for Valverde is guilty. This is a political matter.

OP is the biggest doping scandal in the history of sport, but it is being brushed under the carpet for political reasons, which naturally is disgusting.

And do you know why? Because there are a slew of footballers in the registers of Fuentes. That's why! If this had been a Spanish Festina, everything would have come out. But soccer is too big, too rich, generates too much money. So we get the cover-up!!! Va fanculo! What hypocrisy!!!!
 
May 18, 2009
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BroDeal said:
As I remember it:

When the l'Equipe reporter obtained the results of the research done on the 1998 and 1999 TdF urine samples, there were no names attached to the results. All the samples were labeled with a code. The reporter suspected that there was a good chance that some of the EPO positives belonged to Armstrong, but the only way to prove this would be to match the sample codes to the the codes on Armstrong's doping forms, which were controlled by the UCI. He then came up with a way to obtain the doping forms.

There had long been rumors and insinuations that Armstrong had TUEs for various things like testosterone or even EPO because of his cancer treatment, especially for the 1999 TdF. Armstrong denied this. So the reporter asked Armstrong to prove that he did not have a TUE by giving his permission to the UCI to release one of his 1999 doping forms. Armstrong was willing to do this because he thought it would put to rest the rumors. The UCI then screwed up and released all of Armstrong's doping forms for 1999 instead of just one. The reporter was then able to match Armstrong to six of the positives for EPO.

As you note, the 99 B samples were used for research in developing an EPO test. However l'Equipe came into possession of the original codes is not my concern. Just because LA may have released this for the reason you cited above does not jive with what Elapid wrote earlier.

I am anxiously waiting to be proved wrong on this issue when he/she produces something that says LA released the results/codes of the tests done on the B-samples to l'Equipe. I find it hard to believe LA would say to a reporter from l'Equipe "yeah, I release all this info to you so you can figure out the results of experimental testing done on my 5 year old pis whose whereabouts and testing protocol has been unknown to me". Right.

"The way" I recall/think the reporter came up with a way to match is this: either the lab, UCI, WADA or some other individual leaked the codes of the B samples with results during EPO test development to l'Equipe who could then tie them back. That is what I have a problem with. Again, if Elapid can prove otherwise I would be glad to admit I am wrong.

There was no "protocol" involved in this being splashed across a newspaper with no recourse for LA. It was a deliberate smear campaign by some entity and I would hope one can admit that whether they think LA doped or not. I personally think he did, but that doesn't preclude my sense of fair play or procedures that must be followed when an authority accuses an individual.
 
Sep 21, 2009
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I appreciate the very valid comments my post on this thread has generated. However, the issue is quite simple for me:

1) If an athlete takes PEDs he is harming himself, so the State should not prosecute him
2) If an athlete takes PEDs he is breaking the sport's rules, so the sport's authorities should prosecute him
3) If a doctor, coach or team manager gives PEDs to an athlete he is harming other, so he should be prosecuted by the State for offence to public health
4) If a doctor, coach or team manager gives PEDs to an athlete he is inducing the athlete to break the sports rules, so he should also be sanctioned by sports authorities based on the findings of the trial in the Justice court
5) For those who put money in sport (be it the a public or a private organisation), a clause in their contracts covering the case of an athlete being found guilty of taking PEDs would be enough. Common trade and commerce laws would do the rest in the Justice court


The current mess comes from the fact that not everyone agrees with points 1 and 2 in this list. To me is a no-brainer: State Law must be separated from sports rules, like State Law is separated from Religion Law (at least in some countries)
 
Mar 18, 2009
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ChrisE said:
"The way" I recall/think the reporter came up with a way to match is this: either the lab, UCI, WADA or some other individual leaked the codes of the B samples with results during EPO test development to l'Equipe who could then tie them back. That is what I have a problem with. Again, if Elapid can prove otherwise I would be glad to admit I am wrong.

There was no "protocol" involved in this being splashed across a newspaper with no recourse for LA. It was a deliberate smear campaign by some entity and I would hope one can admit that whether they think LA doped or not. I personally think he did, but that doesn't preclude my sense of fair play or procedures that must be followed when an authority accuses an individual.

I am at work at the moment and will try to answer your question tonight when I get home. However, BroDeal expressed it much more eloquently than I did and what BroDeal said is basically what I was trying to say. I do not think it went down in the manner that you described. I think this was detailed in David Walsh's book From Lance to Landis, but I'll check tonight.

I definitely disagree with your assertion that this was a smear campaign though. IMO it was good investigative journalism, not a smear campaign. Without investigative journalism, the general public would not know of the wrongdoings of the likes of Nixon and Armstrong, amongst many others. This is not a smear campaign, it is just journalists following leads and hunches and reporting on their findings if these leads and hunches turn into something solid.
 
May 18, 2009
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elapid said:
I am at work at the moment and will try to answer your question tonight when I get home. However, BroDeal expressed it much more eloquently than I did and what BroDeal said is basically what I was trying to say. I do not think it went down in the manner that you described. I think this was detailed in David Walsh's book From Lance to Landis, but I'll check tonight.

I definitely disagree with your assertion that this was a smear campaign though. IMO it was good investigative journalism, not a smear campaign. Without investigative journalism, the general public would not know of the wrongdoings of the likes of Nixon and Armstrong, amongst many others. This is not a smear campaign, it is just journalists following leads and hunches and reporting on their findings if these leads and hunches turn into something solid.

Brodeal stated LA released the code for the TUE issue. Like I stated earlier, that is not my concern, whether the he did it, the UCI, or whoever.

LA did not release the results/codes of the B sample testing during the EPO test development, ie give a reporter free reign to figure out what he can. I am willing to be proven wrong on this as I have said...

Agreed smear campaign was not by the journalist. Smear campaign was by the entity that leaked the codes vs the results of the EPO test development.
 
ChrisE said:
LA did not release the results/codes of the B sample testing during the EPO test development, ie give a reporter free reign to figure out what he can. I am willing to be proven wrong on this as I have said...

Who cares why Armstrong gave permission for their release? Once the information is out there, it will be used for all sorts of purposes. You are just trying to find a reason to not to accept that Armstrong doped. Armstrong spent years deriding the press and challenging them to prove he doped. They did it using information that Armstrong gave them.
 
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BroDeal said:
Who cares why Armstrong gave permission for their release? Once the information is out there, it will be used for all sorts of purposes. You are just trying to find a reason to not to accept that Armstrong doped. Armstrong spent years deriding the press and challenging them to prove he doped. They did it using information that Armstrong gave them.

Do you really think he is trying to come up with a reason to not accept that Armstrong doped? I did not read it that way at all.

Maybe you need to read the posts again. Looks like getting hung up on technicalities but not so in my opinion. It is more like maybe a certain entity was out to get him? Does not hurt to dig a little further.
 
May 18, 2009
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BroDeal said:
Who cares why Armstrong gave permission for their release? Once the information is out there, it will be used for all sorts of purposes. You are just trying to find a reason to not to accept that Armstrong doped. Armstrong spent years deriding the press and challenging them to prove he doped. They did it using information that Armstrong gave them.

Since you know he didn't give permission to release the B sample results and the reporter obtained them via leak from WADA/UCI/lab, which is my point in reply to Elapid, you throw your little fit and claim I am trying to prove that he did not dope.

In post 77 and 80 I stated I think he doped.
 

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ChrisE said:
Brodeal stated LA released the code for the TUE issue. Like I stated earlier, that is not my concern, whether the he did it, the UCI, or whoever.

LA did not release the results/codes of the B sample testing during the EPO test development, ie give a reporter free reign to figure out what he can. I am willing to be proven wrong on this as I have said...
Agreed smear campaign was not by the journalist. Smear campaign was by the entity that leaked the codes vs the results of the EPO test development.

The reporter in question requested LA's medical record and the TUE he had for the cortisone positive from the 1999 Tour.

The UCI cannot release this information without the athletes consent.
LA gave the UCI permission to release the TUE but not the medical records.

On the TUE was Armstrongs 6 digit number.
This information is on another thread about LA - if you want to continue to question it then it would be best to bring it up on that thread.
 

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icefire said:
I appreciate the very valid comments my post on this thread has generated. However, the issue is quite simple for me:

1) If an athlete takes PEDs he is harming himself, so the State should not prosecute him
2) If an athlete takes PEDs he is breaking the sport's rules, so the sport's authorities should prosecute him
3) If a doctor, coach or team manager gives PEDs to an athlete he is harming other, so he should be prosecuted by the State for offence to public health
4) If a doctor, coach or team manager gives PEDs to an athlete he is inducing the athlete to break the sports rules, so he should also be sanctioned by sports authorities based on the findings of the trial in the Justice court
5) For those who put money in sport (be it the a public or a private organisation), a clause in their contracts covering the case of an athlete being found guilty of taking PEDs would be enough. Common trade and commerce laws would do the rest in the Justice court


The current mess comes from the fact that not everyone agrees with points 1 and 2 in this list. To me is a no-brainer: State Law must be separated from sports rules, like State Law is separated from Religion Law (at least in some countries)

On point number 1: you are mixing up drug taking with the abuse of PED's.
If my neighbor or the guy under the bridge want to engage in drug abuse they are not harming others. (ie forcing me to take drugs.)
However when athletes start taking PED's they are getting an advantage over other competitors - which then forces those other competitors to engage in the same practises or become uncompeitive.

On point number 2: there are different laws in different countries governing that. While I agree in principle that a State should not move in on sporting authorities rules there are usually other laws being broken in athletes abuse of PED's.
 
May 18, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
The reporter in question requested LA's medical record and the TUE he had for the cortisone positive from the 1999 Tour.

The UCI cannot release this information without the athletes consent.
LA gave the UCI permission to release the TUE but not the medical records.

On the TUE was Armstrongs 6 digit number.
This information is on another thread about LA - if you want to continue to question it then it would be best to bring it up on that thread.

And, what's your point? How the reporter obtained the codes is not the issue, as I have stated previously. How he obtained the B sample results/codes is. That was by a leak and was not supposed to happen.

Agreed this is off topic, so let's move on.
 
Dr. Maserati said:
On point number 1: you are mixing up drug taking with the abuse of PED's.
If my neighbor or the guy under the bridge want to engage in drug abuse they are not harming others. (ie forcing me to take drugs.)
However when athletes start taking PED's they are getting an advantage over other competitors - which then forces those other competitors to engage in the same practises or become uncompeitive.
Is that like saying truck and tax drivers who drive over the speed limit should be criminally penalized because by speeding they are getting an advantage over their competitors - which then forces those other competitors to engage in speeding or become uncompetitive?
 

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Ninety5rpm said:
Is that like saying truck and tax drivers who drive over the speed limit should be criminally penalized because by speeding they are getting an advantage over their competitors - which then forces those other competitors to engage in speeding or become uncompetitive?

NO - not even remotely- I was responding to Icefires point that the State should not get involved in sports.
My point has been that States can have a role to play here too - as has happened in Germany, Italy, France and Spain.

As for your analogy - speeding is against the law but does not constitute a criminal conviction. (thankfully!)
 
Jun 16, 2009
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FoxxyBrown1111 said:
So at leat we are free and can call the basterds basterds without being sued*

Here is the Top 3 of the basterds, judged and found guilty by us, the informed Non-Fanboys:

1. Epo-Lance (formerly known as Lance Armstrong). Convicted doper, but denying and lying

2. Valv-Piti (formerly known as Alejandro Valverde). Convicted doper, but denying and lying

3. AC (formerly known as Alberto Contador). Convicted doper, but denying and lying


* Even tough i would like to be sued by one of those "Top-3-Rats"
So your message on this forum is going to make world wide news. That's why your allowed to say it.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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ChrisE said:
Brodeal stated LA released the code for the TUE issue. Like I stated earlier, that is not my concern, whether the he did it, the UCI, or whoever.

LA did not release the results/codes of the B sample testing during the EPO test development, ie give a reporter free reign to figure out what he can. I am willing to be proven wrong on this as I have said...

Agreed smear campaign was not by the journalist. Smear campaign was by the entity that leaked the codes vs the results of the EPO test development.

This is from Walsh's "From Lance to Landis" (pp. 229-234):

"In January 2005 he (Ressiot, the l'Equipe reporter) heard the French anti-doping laboratory was involved in research to improve its urine for r-EPO. A few days later he learned scientists at the laboratory had retested samples from the 1998 and 1999 Tour de France. ...

There were four possible sources for the doping control forms that Ressiot needed. Copies are sent to the UCI, French Ministry of Youth and Sport, and the French Cycling Federation. Finally, the doctor who takes the sample is permitted but not obliged to keep a copy of the doping form.

Without a source prepared to hand over the documents, Ressiot came up with a plan to get the UCI to volunteer the relevant information. He contacted cycling's governing body, said he was doing a story on Armstrong, and suggested that if he could see the rider's doping control forms, it could help show Armstrong had ridden clean. Ressiot's approach was clever, if disingenuous. He gave the impression his story concerned the use of Therapeutic Use Exemptions (TUEs) ... Armstrong had always said he did not have a TUE for any product, and if this were true, Ressiot said he was ready to write it. The truth could be established by showing the doping control forms to the journalist. ...

... Verbruggen (UCI President) told Ressiot he was in favor of showing him Armstrong's doping forms but the decision would ultimately be the rider's. Initially, the Texan was reluctant and his directeur sportif, Johan Bruyneel, was dead set against giving Ressiot anything. They knew his investigation was not as innocent as he made out but mistakenly guessed his search was for a therapeutic exemption allowing Armstrong to use a banned product. He had no such dispensation, and as the forms proved this, Verbruggen and eventually Armstrong were persuaded that disclosure could only help the rider. They agreed to show Ressiot the forms. ...

... Because Verbruggen and Armstrong approved, doors were opened for the journalist and documents handed over. In fact, the UCI medical director, Mario Zorzoli, could not have been more helpful and gave Ressiot Armstrong's doping control forms from the 1999 Tour de France and every subsequent Tour up to 2004. ... Two elements of a three-part story had been covered; Ressiot knew of the twelve positives from the retesting of the 1999 samples, and second, he had Armstrong's doping forms for '99. All that remained were official copies of results from the lab, which Ressiot knew had to have been passed on to the French sports ministry and the World Anti-Doping Agency. ...

... Toward the end of July, Ressiot learned the results were being compiled, and, suspecting they would be sent to the French sports ministry and WADA ... Comparing the identification numbers of the positive tests from the lab with Armstrong's official doping control forms, he found six correlations."

So based on Walsh's report, there was no leaking of this information from laboratories, researchers or anyone else. While Ressiot's methods in obtaining permission from both Verbruggen and Armstrong may have been sneaky, they still both gave him permission to access the UCI records.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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elapid said:
This is from Walsh's "From Lance to Landis" (pp. 229-234):

"In January 2005 he (Ressiot, the l'Equipe reporter) heard the French anti-doping laboratory was involved in research to improve its urine for r-EPO. A few days later he learned scientists at the laboratory had retested samples from the 1998 and 1999 Tour de France. ...

There were four possible sources for the doping control forms that Ressiot needed. Copies are sent to the UCI, French Ministry of Youth and Sport, and the French Cycling Federation. Finally, the doctor who takes the sample is permitted but not obliged to keep a copy of the doping form.

Without a source prepared to hand over the documents, Ressiot came up with a plan to get the UCI to volunteer the relevant information. He contacted cycling's governing body, said he was doing a story on Armstrong, and suggested that if he could see the rider's doping control forms, it could help show Armstrong had ridden clean. Ressiot's approach was clever, if disingenuous. He gave the impression his story concerned the use of Therapeutic Use Exemptions (TUEs) ... Armstrong had always said he did not have a TUE for any product, and if this were true, Ressiot said he was ready to write it. The truth could be established by showing the doping control forms to the journalist. ...

... Verbruggen (UCI President) told Ressiot he was in favor of showing him Armstrong's doping forms but the decision would ultimately be the rider's. Initially, the Texan was reluctant and his directeur sportif, Johan Bruyneel, was dead set against giving Ressiot anything. They knew his investigation was not as innocent as he made out but mistakenly guessed his search was for a therapeutic exemption allowing Armstrong to use a banned product. He had no such dispensation, and as the forms proved this, Verbruggen and eventually Armstrong were persuaded that disclosure could only help the rider. They agreed to show Ressiot the forms. ...

... Because Verbruggen and Armstrong approved, doors were opened for the journalist and documents handed over. In fact, the UCI medical director, Mario Zorzoli, could not have been more helpful and gave Ressiot Armstrong's doping control forms from the 1999 Tour de France and every subsequent Tour up to 2004. ... Two elements of a three-part story had been covered; Ressiot knew of the twelve positives from the retesting of the 1999 samples, and second, he had Armstrong's doping forms for '99. All that remained were official copies of results from the lab, which Ressiot knew had to have been passed on to the French sports ministry and the World Anti-Doping Agency. ...

... Toward the end of July, Ressiot learned the results were being compiled, and, suspecting they would be sent to the French sports ministry and WADA ... Comparing the identification numbers of the positive tests from the lab with Armstrong's official doping control forms, he found six correlations."

So based on Walsh's report, there was no leaking of this information from laboratories, researchers or anyone else. While Ressiot's methods in obtaining permission from both Verbruggen and Armstrong may have been sneaky, they still both gave him permission to access the UCI records.

Does this mean the uci are covering for armstrong if they know of the positive results?

LOL. Every thread in the clinic always links back to LA
 
Jun 18, 2009
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auscyclefan94 said:
So your message on this forum is going to make world wide news. That's why your allowed to say it.

I hope that's not a dig at being censored for being racist before.

*****

Evans is a funny one.

He's ridden for Saeco, Mapei, Telekom - not exactly known for being clean teams. A list of Evans' teammates is, as with anyone who has raced professionally for 7+ years, a who's who of the hot sauce.

He has been a top rider for many years.

On that basis alone, it is difficult to imagine that he is not doing what all the other top riders appear to be doing. Yet, he is clearly his own personality, and was one of the few Telekom riders who didn't get 'food poisoning' in the 2004 Vuelta. I take that to mean that he was not blood doping for that race.

Lastly, he is a bit of an oddball - if anyone is crazy enough to be clean, he might be one. That would make his otherwise irrational anger against a lot of his fellow riders completely understandable.

Cuddles, all is forgiven!
 
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Runitout said:
I hope that's not a dig at being censored for being racist before.

*****

Evans is a funny one.

He's ridden for Saeco, Mapei, Telekom - not exactly known for being clean teams. A list of Evans' teammates is, as with anyone who has raced professionally for 7+ years, a who's who of the hot sauce.

He has been a top rider for many years.

On that basis alone, it is difficult to imagine that he is not doing what all the other top riders appear to be doing. Yet, he is clearly his own personality, and was one of the few Telekom riders who didn't get 'food poisoning' in the 2004 Vuelta. I take that to mean that he was not blood doping for that race.

Lastly, he is a bit of an oddball - if anyone is crazy enough to be clean, he might be one. That would make his otherwise irrational anger against a lot of his fellow riders completely understandable.

Cuddles, all is forgiven!
No, see you take everything the wrong way. Lighten up.

I see your point, I'm not saying he is clean or dirty but you could do that for anyone nowadays! I personally think he is clean because i am a fan of his and for some reason i believe him but unfortunately due to the sports state at the moment i wouldn't be surprised if any rider turns out to be a doper.
 
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auscyclefan94 said:
So your message on this forum is going to make world wide news. That's why your allowed to say it.

I dont get your point.

For the world news: More and more pipo find out about the truth of their "heroes". If we wudnt talk about them, they would never find out.
 
icefire said:
I appreciate the very valid comments my post on this thread has generated. However, the issue is quite simple for me:

1) If an athlete takes PEDs he is harming himself, so the State should not prosecute him
2) If an athlete takes PEDs he is breaking the sport's rules, so the sport's authorities should prosecute him
3) If a doctor, coach or team manager gives PEDs to an athlete he is harming other, so he should be prosecuted by the State for offence to public health
4) If a doctor, coach or team manager gives PEDs to an athlete he is inducing the athlete to break the sports rules, so he should also be sanctioned by sports authorities based on the findings of the trial in the Justice court
5) For those who put money in sport (be it the a public or a private organisation), a clause in their contracts covering the case of an athlete being found guilty of taking PEDs would be enough. Common trade and commerce laws would do the rest in the Justice court


The current mess comes from the fact that not everyone agrees with points 1 and 2 in this list. To me is a no-brainer: State Law must be separated from sports rules, like State Law is separated from Religion Law (at least in some countries)

In fact I don't agree with point 2.

Look, it's like the disaster of deregulation at Wall Street. Washington put the chief investment bankers, i.e. those who stood to make the most money from a financial market without rules, in charge of regulating it. And this is what mostly led to the disaster.

The same governing sport bodies, for the same conflict of interests, have led to the curruption that has prevented real justice from being done.

So call it what you want, the State or something else, but there needs to be an independent, unbiased and higher authority in regulating sport, becuase organizations like the UCI are currupt to the gills and polluted with a conflict of interests which has allowed the farce to go on far far too long now.

And State law changed in Spain, the moment OP came out, however there wasn't the political will to make the new law retroactive so as to allow further investigation of the those involved in Fuente's register (though after a few foreign riders had to pay a heavy price for their affiliation).

Not that the State needs to be directly involved with prosecuting the accused, but it should legaly force the governing bodies of sport, the UCI, the IOC, that of pro soccer, etc. to adhere to an independent body invested with legal authority over themselves, and theoretically without a conflict of interests, to arbitrate and judge in matters of athletes doping offences, or their using of medics and labs for a doping purpose.

That the doctors and the labs, or whatever network structure, exists to facilitate doping, should be directly prosecuted and punished by the State is without question.

Of course there is one huge problem with all of this: namely that often the State itself is plagued with the same curruption and conflict of interests as all the rest. Because, as BroDeal correctly points out, the State already finances with public funds the stadiums. The rest coming from the same corporate entities, whose lobbies finance the political campaigns which get them elected into office. Consequently if you have this Joe politician that recieved huge campain funds from this multinational corporation, which has invested massive sums of money in the baseball or soccer stadiums and the teams that perform in them, as well as in the television rights to broadcast them: they thus collectively become propagandistc marketing tools to drive up corporate sales - and this is why it is easy to see how there is no political will to bring out to the public, the full weight of cases like OP in terms of illicit behavior and curruption in the world of sport culture today because it's bad corporate PR. Sport enterprise simply generates too huge, gargantuan sums of cashflow for the corporations and their political lobbists and it is likely the soccer contingent in OP that broke any political will to see justice done as a result with a retroactive law in Spain. Italian soccer and it's politicians are no better...

So we haven't evolved in this sense one iota since the ancient Roman Empire, which gave the world for the first time "sport culture" in their cities' amphitheaters and circuses. Indeed real political lobbies eventually did form around the circus chariot race teams (the reds, the blues, the greens and the whites) known as factiones. And Martial knew 2000 years ago what his political officials understood then, just as today's corporate world still realizes all too well: panem et circensis - give the people "bread and circuses" and you can bend them to your will, control the stadiums and you control them.

So our sport culture, just as it was in the times of the Classical Roman state, exists within this corporate-political structure that will likely prevent real ethical practice from ever being achieved.

Though the first thing that would need to be done, is to break the corporate lobbies which finance the politicians and to place the sport governing bodies themselves under some form of independent regulation and absolutely take them out of self-regulating thier various sports.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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FoxxyBrown1111 said:
I dont get your point.

For the world news: More and more pipo find out about the truth of their "heroes". If we wudnt talk about them, they would never find out.

i'm saying that people like cadel can't make a too directed comment about him doping because he is in the public eye and is famous and valverde's lawyers could use it as slander or defamation of character. If you or me say it, valverde won't know and the general public won't know so it's alright. To valverde and everyone else in the general public, posters on this forums opinion is insignificant.:(
 
Aug 12, 2009
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cyclingmad said:
In answer to the first question I personally believe LA probably did dope. The information probably was good The point is that once someone breaks rules like protecting anonymity in a test process they broke rules naming owners of the samples you cant trust this information.
Once you start releasing information like this it deteriorates into now where people are guilty in the public eye by association or there name is on a piece of paper without context. Pat McQuaid was completely offside with LA in 2005 why do they now get on? Why are people not being treated equally?

My point in part to is that during an investigation lots of people are asked questions provide explanation for evidence at times a suspect of crime. The conviction rate compared to the number of people investigated in a lot of crimes is low. For some facts try the following link.
http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/tspfo97.txt

Separately terror suspects is a comparable situation as some get tortured. 2/3rds are found innocent. If some evidence exists doesn't make them guilty by any means.

During an investigation I'll agree with you original point. The local Department of Public Prosectution office or District Attorney office (USA) won't take a case to court that has little chance of winning. It is not worth it (monetary value versus expended efforts and returns). The success rate in most cases is fairly good. Terrorists...hmmnnn, I thought most were still in Guantanamo because they were bad and were running around Afghanistan and Iraq shooting AK47's at the locals. Maybe in Britain they're good, but not knowing where you live I can only guess at the laws and 2/3rd innocent. A generalisation on my behalf, most accussed terrorist are accurately described as 'terrorists' and are only innocent of being insane nut jobs who push and then shatter social boundaries and laws, hurting people, thus they are caught and named and shamed. Sometimes executed.

You are right in point three my comments are poorly written. You can debate the merits of one rider doping versus another but without a credible system you cant be too sure of the guilt or innocence of anyone.

Forming the opinion that someone is cheated out of winning because he is the only clean one being beaten by dopers because some riders had some evidence of doping against them 3 years ago is ridiculous.

Need to put the ghosts of the past behind start afresh with what is happening now.

Agreed with the intent of the middle paragraph, but the context allows like minded (not necessarily) intelligent people to distiguish when this occurs. Its fair to say in this forum most people don't think this happens often, but can debate when it has. People look for self validation in all kinds of places. You are right in your belief, that holding the perception you were cheated by another rider, because of an incident occuring three years in the past, is none other than a ridiculous stand point. Some mental fortitude is lacking in that scenario. Buikld a bridge and move on...control what you can and ignore that which you cannot. This is why I think Valverde won as fair as cycling and the nature of the sport currently permits. He's only cheated the notion of justice, his ride this month was based on the same stuff as the remaining top 10...with a few subtle differnces between them all determining the order.

rhubroma said:
OP is the biggest doping scandal in the history of sport, but it is being brushed under the carpet for political reasons, which naturally is disgusting.

And do you know why? Because there are a slew of footballers in the registers of Fuentes. That's why! If this had been a Spanish Festina, everything would have come out. But soccer is too big, too rich, generates too much money. So we get the cover-up!!! Va fanculo! What hypocrisy!!!!

+1. I'm sick and tired of the bull$h!t from Michel Platini and Sepp Blatter. They don't stop diving and the theatrics and won't move on doping. It's becoming simulated entertainment. I'll go as far as saying I believe a number of games are rigged, in the sense that the ref gets paid on the side. Too much ignorance of the rules and instant application in big tournaments. I'd love to see their bank accounts and the paper trails. It pays to have deep pockets like Barca and Real have when something afoul presents itself. The lawyers shut the whole thing down really well. Go the players union! Thats earning your keep!