Cancellara

[blackcat]

Merged your thread MartinGT with an existing Cance thread.

I'd say Scott SoCal has it exactly right. Was really only here for stage 5, not much else to do now. Aside from maybe go for a few sprinter stages and get top 10. can't beat Martin in the TT (too hilly). Might as well leave and get some rest before doing some of the Vuelta to prepare for worlds.

see Beijing Olympics tt

 

[sir fly]

The perennial rainbow hype has begun.

 

[Escarabajo]

I think this thread deserves a bump. And Cancellara needs more shame in the media. After reading and watching enough video about his wins in 2010 I can say with certainty that he was using motors on La Ronde and PR.

Him and Hesjedal look to be catched red handed. Both look to be very clear.

The scary part is for how long has this been happening. No need to go to the sophisticated motor methods. We haven't catched anybody of importance so we should just worry about catching the basic low tech motors! LOL.

 

[Maxiton]

Re:

I think this thread deserves a bump. And Cancellara needs more shame in the media. After reading and watching enough video about his wins in 2010 I can say with certainty that he was using motors on La Ronde and PR.

Him and Hesjedal look to be catched red handed. Both look to be very clear.

The scary part is for how long has this been happening. No need to go to the sophisticated motor methods. We haven't catched anybody of importance so we should just worry about catching the basic low tech motors! LOL.

Yep. Seems pretty clear, sad to say. No one, not the riders nor their teams nor the UCI, will ever admit it, though.

 

[dwyatt]

Re:

I think this thread deserves a bump. And Cancellara needs more shame in the media. After reading and watching enough video about his wins in 2010 I can say with certainty that he was using motors on La Ronde and PR.

Him and Hesjedal look to be catched red handed. Both look to be very clear.

The scary part is for how long has this been happening. No need to go to the sophisticated motor methods. We haven't catched anybody of importance so we should just worry about catching the basic low tech motors! LOL.

Yeah, i'm still yet to see an more obvious video than the 2010 PR as far as moto doping goes.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

I think this thread deserves a bump. And Cancellara needs more shame in the media. After reading and watching enough video about his wins in 2010 I can say with certainty that he was using motors on La Ronde and PR.

Him and Hesjedal look to be catched red handed. Both look to be very clear.

The scary part is for how long has this been happening. No need to go to the sophisticated motor methods. We haven't catched anybody of importance so we should just worry about catching the basic low tech motors! LOL.

Yep. Seems pretty clear, sad to say. No one, not the riders nor their teams nor the UCI, will ever admit it, though.

Patrick Lefevre did.

so after 2010, and Tommeke losing RVVand PR, when did he do his solo 50km PR move off the front and hung on? Was there any suspicion there? Was it 2011? I think Sparatcus was out injured with a busted clavicle... i think

 

[Maxiton]

Re: Re:

I think this thread deserves a bump. And Cancellara needs more shame in the media. After reading and watching enough video about his wins in 2010 I can say with certainty that he was using motors on La Ronde and PR.

Him and Hesjedal look to be catched red handed. Both look to be very clear.

The scary part is for how long has this been happening. No need to go to the sophisticated motor methods. We haven't catched anybody of importance so we should just worry about catching the basic low tech motors! LOL.

Yep. Seems pretty clear, sad to say. No one, not the riders nor their teams nor the UCI, will ever admit it, though.

Patrick Lefevre did.

so after 2010, and Tommeke losing RVVand PR, when did he do his solo 50km PR move off the front and hung on? Was there any suspicion there? Was it 2011? I think Sparatcus was out injured with a busted clavicle... i think

Yeah, I think it was 2011 if memory serves. What did Lefevre say, and who'd he say it to? Lefevre spoke to the UCI, UCI did nothing, then Lefevre went out and got Boonen the same setup? That's what it sounds like.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

I think this thread deserves a bump. And Cancellara needs more shame in the media. After reading and watching enough video about his wins in 2010 I can say with certainty that he was using motors on La Ronde and PR.

Him and Hesjedal look to be catched red handed. Both look to be very clear.

The scary part is for how long has this been happening. No need to go to the sophisticated motor methods. We haven't catched anybody of importance so we should just worry about catching the basic low tech motors! LOL.

Yep. Seems pretty clear, sad to say. No one, not the riders nor their teams nor the UCI, will ever admit it, though.

Patrick Lefevre did.

so after 2010, and Tommeke losing RVVand PR, when did he do his solo 50km PR move off the front and hung on? Was there any suspicion there? Was it 2011? I think Sparatcus was out injured with a busted clavicle... i think

Yeah, I think it was 2011 if memory serves. What did Lefevre say, and who'd he say it to? Lefevre spoke to the UCI, UCI did nothing, then Lefevre went out and got Boonen the same setup? That's what it sounds like.

well, I was prolly engaging in a degree of hyperbole. But Lefevre did say publically that he thought someone had prolly used a motor. So who would have PL meant?

 

[Maxiton]

Re: Re:

I think this thread deserves a bump. And Cancellara needs more shame in the media. After reading and watching enough video about his wins in 2010 I can say with certainty that he was using motors on La Ronde and PR.

Him and Hesjedal look to be catched red handed. Both look to be very clear.

The scary part is for how long has this been happening. No need to go to the sophisticated motor methods. We haven't catched anybody of importance so we should just worry about catching the basic low tech motors! LOL.

Yep. Seems pretty clear, sad to say. No one, not the riders nor their teams nor the UCI, will ever admit it, though.

Patrick Lefevre did.

so after 2010, and Tommeke losing RVVand PR, when did he do his solo 50km PR move off the front and hung on? Was there any suspicion there? Was it 2011? I think Sparatcus was out injured with a busted clavicle... i think

Yeah, I think it was 2011 if memory serves. What did Lefevre say, and who'd he say it to? Lefevre spoke to the UCI, UCI did nothing, then Lefevre went out and got Boonen the same setup? That's what it sounds like.

well, I was prolly engaging in a degree of hyperbole. But Lefevre did say publically that he thought someone had prolly used a motor. So who would have PL meant?

Interesting. Probably didn't occur to him to go to UCI - no point. Instead he went looking for a motor.

 

[blackcat]

ok, i was lazy, but for once i researched and got clickbait(ed) [verb-sic-neologism]
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lefevere-takes-mechanical-doping-seriously/?cid=OTC-RSS&attr=news_headlines

 

[Maxiton]

Re:

ok, i was lazy, but for once i researched and got clickbait(ed) [verb-sic-neologism]
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lefevere-takes-mechanical-doping-seriously/?cid=OTC-RSS&attr=news_headlines

Thanks. I like this bit

Last month the International Cycling Union (UCI) denied that such “mechanical doping” existed, but confirmed that they were investigating the issue.

They were "investigating", yet denied it existed. I guess that means they already knew they wouldn't find anything - doesn't exist.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

[

They were "investigating", yet denied it existed. I guess that means they already knew they wouldn't find anything - doesn't exist.

love the paradox

 

[Archibald]

Re: Re:

[

They were "investigating", yet denied it existed. I guess that means they already knew they wouldn't find anything - doesn't exist.

love the paradox

these aren't the motors you're looking for...


have to say, I've always wondered why Boonen's solo from even further out than cancellara's never got much attention beyond "what a fantastic victory"... surely it was more suss considering the additional distance, that they actually chased him, and the fact that 4 members of team sky on the front couldn't keep the gap static, let alone reduce it

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

[

They were "investigating", yet denied it existed. I guess that means they already knew they wouldn't find anything - doesn't exist.

love the paradox

these aren't the motors you're looking for...


have to say, I've always wondered why Boonen's solo from even further out than cancellara's never got much attention beyond "what a fantastic victory"... surely it was more suss considering the additional distance, that they actually chased him, and the fact that 4 members of team sky on the front couldn't keep the gap static, let alone reduce it

the devil's advote would be, if anyone can do such a move it would be tommeke

the devils advocate on the devils advocate a meta devils advocate, would say, if there is anyone that could get away with having a motor and plausible deniability on the day cos 'i had great legs' then it would be Tommeke.

 

[Archibald]

Re: Re:

[

They were "investigating", yet denied it existed. I guess that means they already knew they wouldn't find anything - doesn't exist.

love the paradox

these aren't the motors you're looking for...


have to say, I've always wondered why Boonen's solo from even further out than cancellara's never got much attention beyond "what a fantastic victory"... surely it was more suss considering the additional distance, that they actually chased him, and the fact that 4 members of team sky on the front couldn't keep the gap static, let alone reduce it

the devil's advote would be, if anyone can do such a move it would be tommeke

the devils advocate on the devils advocate a meta devils advocate, would say, if there is anyone that could get away with having a motor and plausible deniability on the day cos 'i had great legs' then it would be Tommeke.

I received the former response when I raised this back in 2011, as it seems the latter is the general perception...
Tornado Good, Spartacus Bad...
Toot! Toot!

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

I received the former response when I raised this back in 2011, as it seems the latter is the general perception...
Tornado Good, Spartacus Bad...
Toot! Toot!

I think it was me who first raised it in this thread...
re: Tommeke. I see it as plausible if he saw Cancellara youtube, what yr did someone put it up? and he could see Cancellara's technique, and not how much power he was putting out on the Koppenberg and thought, like Max said above, ferk this $h!t, gimme my own motor, I am better than you kernts

 

[sniper]

another lefevere link:
viewtopic.php?p=1711722#p1711722

must see. Cance talking about his 2010 Muur performance:
viewtopic.php?p=1711719#p1711719

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
Thanks. I like this bit

Last month the International Cycling Union (UCI) denied that such “mechanical doping” existed, but confirmed that they were investigating the issue.

They were "investigating", yet denied it existed. I guess that means they already knew they wouldn't find anything - doesn't exist.

reminiscent of what some UCI tool said in 2015 when they tested bikes at the Giro

In a brief statement, the UCI judges at the Giro d'Italia confirmed they checked the bikes “to clarify the absence of hidden motors".
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-checks-bikes-of-contador-hesjedal-and-gilbert-for-motors-at-giro-ditalia/

i.e. 'to show such things don't exist'

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

[

They were "investigating", yet denied it existed. I guess that means they already knew they wouldn't find anything - doesn't exist.

love the paradox

these aren't the motors you're looking for...


have to say, I've always wondered why Boonen's solo from even further out than cancellara's never got much attention beyond "what a fantastic victory"... surely it was more suss considering the additional distance, that they actually chased him, and the fact that 4 members of team sky on the front couldn't keep the gap static, let alone reduce it

the devil's advote would be, if anyone can do such a move it would be tommeke

the devils advocate on the devils advocate a meta devils advocate, would say, if there is anyone that could get away with having a motor and plausible deniability on the day cos 'i had great legs' then it would be Tommeke.

I received the former response when I raised this back in 2011, as it seems the latter is the general perception...
Tornado Good, Spartacus Bad...
Toot! Toot!

boonen 2011 is an interesting point.
blackcat himself also pointed it out in that older motorthread:
viewtopic.php?p=1731463#p1731463
as i think one or two posters in that thread suggested, Boonen using a motor in 2011 could explain why he and Lefevere decided to shut up about it after 2010.

 

[DFA123]

There is one big difference between both Cancellara incidents and the one confirmed case of motor-doping that we have seen (Femke). The latter created a gap and rode away from the best riders in the world on the Koppenberg - where everyone is at their maximum going 100%.

Cancellara in PR rode away from the bunch when no one really wanted to go to the front and when there was a bit of looking around.. There was certainly not a concerted effort to chase him and its conceivable that he could have been putting out 200 watts more than the rest to create the gap - without needing a motor. In RVV he rode away from only one rider on a brutal climb towards the end of a really tough race - again its possible that he was just able to put out 200 watts more at that stage in the race - perhaps Boonen was just cooked.

That's not to say that Cancellara didn't necessarily have a motor - but just that the way the gap grows is not really a smoking gun, because it's dependent on two factors. The power of Cancellara, and also the power that the other riders are putting out at that moment. In Femke's case, it was much more clear cut, because she easily rode away from several of the best riders in the world at a place on the course where everyone would be going 100%.

 

[sniper]

Re:

There is one big difference between both Cancellara incidents and the one confirmed case of motor-doping that we have seen (Femke). The latter created a gap and rode away from the best riders in the world on the Koppenberg - where everyone is at their maximum going 100%.

Cancellara in PR rode away from the bunch when no one really wanted to go to the front and when there was a bit of looking around.. There was certainly not a concerted effort to chase him and its conceivable that he could have been putting out 200 watts more than the rest to create the gap - without needing a motor. In RVV he rode away from only one rider on a brutal climb towards the end of a really tough race - again its possible that he was just able to put out 200 watts more at that stage in the race - perhaps Boonen was just cooked.

That's not to say that Cancellara didn't necessarily have a motor - but just that the way the gap grows is not really a smoking gun, because it's dependent on two factors. The power of Cancellara, and also the power that the other riders are putting out at that moment. In Femke's case, it was much more clear cut, because she easily rode away from several of the best riders in the world at a place on the course where everyone would be going 100%.

this has been said plenty of times, but i'll spell it out again if necessary:
It's not about his speed, or about how quickly the gap grows, or about who he leaves behind.
It's about the unreal combination of
1. accelleration
2. cadence
3. gear choice
4. his position on the bike
4a. in-saddle
4b. (lack of) upper body movement (arms are hardly pulling the wheel, shoulders not moving, etc.)

Any given, traditionally doped rider X may go up the Muur quicker than Cancellara did, but said rider will never. ever. do so in that particular style following those 4 criteria. Unless he's using a motor.

 

[Echoes]

First, is it possible for posters to stop using the phrase "mechanical doping"? It's absurd. Every kind of cheating equaties doping? Then I can say that LeMond doped because he used the tri-bars when it was still prohibited. It's called a "bike engine", period.

Second, Cancellara did nothing weird in that Paris-Roubaix. I've seen many more impressive attack on Paris-Roubaix than his: by Moser or Vanderaerden. Arch-rival Boonen dropped to his team car and Riis told Fabian about this huge error of inattention by the Campiner.

I would also point to the average speed: 39.325kmh. It's one of the slowest average speed in recent years. In 1970 Merckx reached an average speed of 41.644kmh, in pouring rain and on a probably harder route with old bikes (though he had tail wind for the first 2 hours).

On the Tour of Flanders, he attacked on the Molenberg and not the Koppenberg, along with Boonen. But it's only on the Kapelmuur that you could say he was weird, attacking seating on the saddle, casually. Then of course, his bike changes around Mater, just shortly before the Molenberg was feeding conspiracy theories but what does it lead to? We have no evidence anyway.


By the way, for youngsters, the engine bikes do not date from yesterday. Belgian Willy Debosscher won the elimination race of the 1979 Grenoble Six with an engine. He was known as the clown of the track, so it might have been just a joke.

 

[sniper]

the first attempt at an electric bike dates to the late 19th century.

as for Paris Roubaix, while that jump might be less compelling than the Muur, here too the combination of [accellartion + cadence + gear choice + lack of increased upper body movement] looks weird, unnatural.
no point in denying that.

 

[classicomano]

E3 Prijs Harelbeke 2010 and 2011 were also pretty ridiculous.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHUWTwPu_LA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cAa-QmRUcM

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

There is one big difference between both Cancellara incidents and the one confirmed case of motor-doping that we have seen (Femke). The latter created a gap and rode away from the best riders in the world on the Koppenberg - where everyone is at their maximum going 100%.

Cancellara in PR rode away from the bunch when no one really wanted to go to the front and when there was a bit of looking around.. There was certainly not a concerted effort to chase him and its conceivable that he could have been putting out 200 watts more than the rest to create the gap - without needing a motor. In RVV he rode away from only one rider on a brutal climb towards the end of a really tough race - again its possible that he was just able to put out 200 watts more at that stage in the race - perhaps Boonen was just cooked.

That's not to say that Cancellara didn't necessarily have a motor - but just that the way the gap grows is not really a smoking gun, because it's dependent on two factors. The power of Cancellara, and also the power that the other riders are putting out at that moment. In Femke's case, it was much more clear cut, because she easily rode away from several of the best riders in the world at a place on the course where everyone would be going 100%.

this has been said plenty of times, but i'll spell it out again if necessary:
It's not about his speed, or about how quickly the gap grows, or about who he leaves behind.
It's about the unreal combination of
1. accelleration
2. cadence
3. gear choice
4. his position on the bike
4a. in-saddle
4b. (lack of) upper body movement (arms are hardly pulling the wheel, shoulders not moving, etc.)

Any given, traditionally doped rider X may go up the Muur quicker than Cancellara did, but said rider will never. ever. do so in that particular style following those 4 criteria. Unless he's using a motor.

All of which is, of course, utter nonsense. Acceleration (or rather, perception of acceleration) is entirely relative to the other riders. Cadence is not unreasonable; sprinters regularly go much higher. Gear choice is unknown so is irrelevant. His position on the bike is the same as it is when he puts out 600+ watts on the bergs every year so, unless you are suggesting he's used a motor his entire career, it means nothing.

None of this of course means for sure that he didn't use a motor. But it's hardly the same level of evidence as Femke zooming away from all of the best riders of the world when they are going flat out.