Cancellara's Dangerous neutralisation...

[Archibald]

am I the only one that thinks there may have been some goings on between DS's in the background? and that the riders were just following team orders?
spartacus spent a good amount of time on his radio before slowing it all down

[ps. I read as far as page 3...]

 

[Archibald]

that doesn't mean I agree with the go-slow, as I find myself agreeing with Hushovd

 

[Frosty]

How interesting would this year's Tour be if you have the Schlecks, Contador, Armstrong, Evans, Basso, VV, etc. all so far out of contention by day 3 that there's no reason to actually race? How exciting will the sprints be without the top sprinters? Almost all of them hit the ground as well, as did their lead out men, some have pretty severe injuries and I'd be surprised if they can stay with the Tour more than a couple of days more. Even with Cancellara's group slow down right after the crash it still took something like 10+ minutes for even Contador and Armstrong to catch back on. The Schlecks had Voigt pulling them up to the reforming Peloton as hard as he could and they still took about 15 minutes.

I agreed with the slowdown but i dont think they would have been so far out of contention there would have been no point racing. If people had been up to 5 or 6 minutes back then they would have had to attack and that would have spiced up the racing. Am still unsure what caused the crash. Not convinced oil was totally to blame for all the crashes. Maybe people got stuck behind one crash, then took risks to get back, trying to overtake people unwisely, causing more crashes. However, given the number that went down it looks like waiting for it all to come back together was the right choice.

 

[Benotti69]

How interesting would this year's Tour be if you have the Schlecks, Contador, Armstrong, Evans, Basso, VV, etc. all so far out of contention by day 3 that there's no reason to actually race?

would have made the race very very interesting and made for a lot of tactical racing over the next 3 weeks while those gc contenders battled it out to make up that time instead of sitting on each other's wheels

look what happened in the Giro, half the gc contenders lost 12 minutes on the stage to L'Aquila, did they give up, no it made it one of the best giros for years

in the past plenty of breakaways have finished 10+ minutes ahead of contenders in the bunch, Voekler was one and he had the jersey for days....

PS i was watching live and thought why does Cancellara not put the head down and take the stage by a huge margin for Saxo Bank. He is obviously going to the Schlecks team next year.

 

[nathanbloke]

The crash was, IIRC, about 30k from the finish, enough time for the peleton to mostly regroup, though I notice Cancellara did not wait for Cav! The finish was dry, straight and wide, so why didn't they protest before the stage. Is the PR champion going to organise a protest before today's cobbles? I don't think so, or perhaps he will if his team captain doesn't fancy it.

 

[Cerberus]

would have made the race very very interesting and made for a lot of tactical racing over the next 3 weeks while those gc contenders battled it out to make up that time instead of sitting on each other's wheels

look what happened in the Giro, half the gc contenders lost 12 minutes on the stage to L'Aquila, did they give up, no it made it one of the best giros for years

The people who gained time in the Giro either weren't real contenders or were in bad shape. There's no natural law saying that contenders loosing time make for more interesting racing. That is true only if the people who loose time are stronger than those who gain time. Contador loosing 2-4 minutes= more interesting. Contador gaining 2-5 minute=less interesting. In this case Contador would have both lost and gained time to different competitors, so make of that what you will, but I doubt that the Schlecks would have been able to make up a 3-4 minute loss in the mountains considering they'll lose yet more time in the TT.

PS i was watching live and thought why does Cancellara not put the head down and take the stage by a huge margin for Saxo Bank. He is obviously going to the Schlecks team next year.

Perhaps he's a team player. Keeping you captains in contention for the win or more likely the podium is more important than keeping a yellow jersey a few more days or even winning a stage, though I'm not sure he could have done that.

 

[Cerberus]

The crash was, IIRC, about 30k from the finish, enough time for the peleton to mostly regroup, though I notice Cancellara did not wait for Cav!

First of all, the stage was neutralized all the way to the line so it's not Cancellaras fault if Cavendish couldn't make it back.

Secondly the stage was neutralized so who cares if Cavendish makes it back, there was neither points nor stage victories to contend for, and Cavendish doesn't contend for the GC so time loss doesn't matter.

Thirdly AFAIK Cavendish got dropped, he didn't crash.

 

[Maneblusser25]

Fair Play?

I am sure that Cancellarar's move was a well thought out long term tactical move disguised as fair play. It's completely unacceptable that one individual, regardless of his name and fame or the colour of his jersey, dictates the rest of the bunch, also because some decisions (green jersey points) were only communicated after the stage had finished. I can fully understand the anger and frustration of teams like Cervélo, Rabo Bank and Omega Pharma-Lotto (the latter's leader Jurgen Van Den Broeck) also fell but was not waited for (too little name/reputation for the Tour?). Same for Petacchi? Will Cancellara be less imposing when more crashes happen in the days to come (starting later today by the way at the pavees of Paris Roubaix)? He has now only lade sure to be number one with the French (presenting his yellow jersey to French cycling's golden boy Chavanel!) and has made sure the Schlecks will have a ally in Radio Shack when the going will gets tougher. Anyway, what happened yesterday was not acceptable as it only emphasizes the "us-and-them" -mentality in the professional peleton...

 

[Benotti69]

The people who gained time in the Giro either weren't real contenders or were in bad shape.

Wiggins finished 4th in the TdF, and Sastre could have been contenders, hindsight proved different.....

who saw Uniballer as the TdF winner of the '99 tour before it started

Perhaps he's a team player. Keeping you captains in contention for the win or more likely the podium is more important than keeping a yellow jersey a few more days or even winning a stage, though I'm not sure he could have done that.

Maybe he is, my reaction was to watching live TV without all the facts that we have the day after the event.

my point along with others is racing is racing, if all the gc contenders crash, well so what, Beloki crashed on a decent of the tour, Uniballer crossed the field to avoid him, did he wait, did he make others wait nah of course not....race is a race unless their is a death, then things change.

 

[Nigel Dean]

Gentleman Spartacus

There have been versions of this in many Tours and we'll have something new to talk about tomorrow. By the way; has it escaped everyone's attention that he gave up the YELLOW JERSEY to be a good team player to the Schleck's? Name any other rider of Cancellara's stature that has done that.

I never cease to be amazed by the lack of knowledge of some forum contributors. A cynic may say that Cancellara did not chase to allow the Schleck brothers rejoining as they are his team leaders. But he threw away his yellow jersey in an act of complete respect. He could have chased from his position after Stockeu descent, caught Chavanel, won the stage and increased his overall lead. If guys don't appreciate the nuances of gentlemanly conduct, try and think if a player in the soccer World Cup goes down badly injured, a player on the opposite team will often kick the ball out of play to allow his opponent to be treated and recover. Had Cancellara ridden for the finish, he would have had so many brickbats thrown at him that any gains or win would forever dog him and brand him as a charlatan. Chapeau to Cancellara - and to Chavanel and all the brave souls who dragged themselves to the finish

 

[Cerberus]

Wiggins finished 4th in the TdF, and Sastre could have been contenders, hindsight proved different.....

Well there were indications that neither Sastre nor Wiggins was in top shape before this happened, but it's obviously much clearer in hindsight. Still imagine that Sastre has been in 2008 Tour shape. We could potentially have seen a very boring race with Sastre ridding very conservatively and winning the Giro that way.

I am sure that Cancellarar's move was a well thought out long term tactical move disguised as fair play. It's completely unacceptable that one individual, regardless of his name and fame or the colour of his jersey, dictates the rest of the bunch

Good thing that one rider didn't dictate everything then. Contador supported him, it sound like Armstrong did to, probably a bunch of other to. Yes Rabobank and Cervelo were upset, and I even sympathize with Hushovd, but Cancellara could not and did not dictate it for everyone.

 

[Maneblusser25]

One man's band...

Well there were indications that neither Sastre nor Wiggins was in top shape before this happened, but it's obviously much clearer in hindsight. Still imagine that Sastre has been in 2008 Tour shape. We could potentially have seen a very boring race with Sastre ridding very conservatively and winning the Giro that way.




Good thing that one rider didn't dictate everything then. Contador supported him, it sound like Armstrong did to, probably a bunch of other to. Yes Rabobank and Cervelo were upset, and I even sympathize with Hushovd, but Cancellara could not and did not dictate it for everyone.

I am not so sure Armstrong and Contador had any say in it. They merely benefited form one man's initiative, who happened to wear the YJ. Astana kept very low profile while everything was happening. Radio Shack was happy Cance had imposed his will on the first peleton and then it is easy to say they supported that move - afterwards! Again, I wonder how much weight Cancellara will pull in his Saxo Bank jersey... Or will it be down to Chavanel should there be a similra situation today - which is not unrealistic given the nature of the stage. Or are such measures only resereved for those "happy few"?

 

[powderpuff]

I never cease to be amazed by the lack of knowledge of some forum contributors. A cynic may say that Cancellara did not chase to allow the Schleck brothers rejoining as they are his team leaders. But he threw away his yellow jersey in an act of complete respect. He could have chased from his position after Stockeu descent, caught Chavanel, won the stage and increased his overall lead.

He didn't chase because he would have had his DS screaming in his ear, do whatever you can to limit the losses for the Schleckettes. He would have been crucified if he won the stage and B1 and B2 lost 5 minutes. I guess if Spartacus had been a british cyclist they would have knighted him for his efforts.

 

[Sydney Sider]

he didn't chase because he would have had his ds screaming in his ear, do whatever you can to limit the losses for the schleckettes. He would have been crucified if he won the stage and b1 and b2 lost 5 minutes. I guess if spartacus had been a british cyclist they would have knighted him for his efforts.:d

+1000 .........

 

[alberto.legstrong]

I never cease to be amazed by the lack of knowledge of some forum contributors. A cynic may say that Cancellara did not chase to allow the Schleck brothers rejoining as they are his team leaders. But he threw away his yellow jersey in an act of complete respect. He could have chased from his position after Stockeu descent, caught Chavanel, won the stage and increased his overall lead. If guys don't appreciate the nuances of gentlemanly conduct, try and think if a player in the soccer World Cup goes down badly injured, a player on the opposite team will often kick the ball out of play to allow his opponent to be treated and recover. Had Cancellara ridden for the finish, he would have had so many brickbats thrown at him that any gains or win would forever dog him and brand him as a charlatan. Chapeau to Cancellara - and to Chavanel and all the brave souls who dragged themselves to the finish

I am really getting frustrated by the lengths some people are going to miss the greater point. I haven't seen anyone say that FC should not have slowed up to allow all competitors to recover and rejoin. The disagreement is over how much is enough. Neutralizing until the end may have seemed reasonable to him but there is some dispute, not merely among forumites but amongst teams and DS'es that are actually paid to know what to do and are there. Even amongst the same team where the riders and DS seem to be at odds.

So why do the forum members get disparaged for disagreeing over the sportsmanship aspects of neutralizing until the end when the participants in the event can't agree?

 

[Cerberus]

I am really getting frustrated by the lengths some people are going to miss the greater point. I haven't seen anyone say that FC should not have slowed up to allow all competitors to recover and rejoin.

I have, for example this guy on page four of this thread:

The TDF is supposed to be a competition, not a love-fest.

I think the ASO should send Cancellara packing. It was cheating conveniently disguised as rider/sponsor politics.

Nobody in the ASO made it rain, and nobody in the ASO said the riders couldn't slow down when things get hairy. Not everbody went down.

And does anybody think for a minute that Cancellara would have pulled this crap if the Schlecks were in the yellow jersey group and Contador was a few minutes back?

Not the only one by a long shot either, but I'd rather not sift through a gazillion pages of 3 threads for another 10 examples. To be fair some complained before it was known that an oil spill caused crash, not sure if Sashimono knew either, he might not have read the previous posts.

 

[Four Winds]

It was a very surprising end to the stage. I assumed they'd let Chavanel have his day and neutralise times for the peloton but still have a sprint rather like the Milan debacle in the Giro last year. They could easily have raced the last couple of km.

Fair enough, I'm not the one sticking my neck out but it could get to the point where any wet descent on narrow roads could be neutralised. There's a saying in motorbike racing that "the throttle works both ways." In other words if you think you're going too quick then slow down

Either way, Hushovd is a big whinger with a short memory:

 

[Benotti69]

Well there were indications that neither Sastre nor Wiggins was in top shape before this happened, but it's obviously much clearer in hindsight. Still imagine that Sastre has been in 2008 Tour shape. We could potentially have seen a very boring race with Sastre ridding very conservatively and winning the Giro that way.

but after that stage who could have known what would have happened over the rest of the race..

as for yesterday. Those who crashed have the chance to make others pay today.....nature of a grand tour or it used to be thus.

Good thing that one rider didn't dictate everything then. Contador supported him, it sound like Armstrong did to, probably a bunch of other to. Yes Rabobank and Cervelo were upset, and I even sympathize with Hushovd, but Cancellara could not and did not dictate it for everyone.

i read Uniballer did not see the need for neutralisation as he said they have raced over these roads for a hundred years and even in the snow!!!!!

not gonna post anymore on yesterdays news. Lets hope for an exciting stage today...

 

[Maneblusser25]

Chavanel's comment

I just heard that Chavanel considered it ridiculous that it was decided by one or some to stop racing. It takes the gloss off his victory and he added that if they start neutralizing this kind of stages for the reasons given, they can as well skip all mountain stages that finish at the top. Why not just sticking to flat stages from start to finish with as few obstacles as possible and this all the way to Paris. It would surely suited him right now he concluded...

 

[Cerberus]

I just heard that Chavanel considered it ridiculous that it was decided by one or some to stop racing. It takes the gloss off his victory and he added that if they start neutralizing this kind of stages for the reasons given, they can as well skip all mountain stages that finish at the top. Why not just sticking to flat stages from start to finish with as few obstacles as possible and this all the way to Paris. It would surely suited him right now he concluded...

It didn't take the gloss of his victory, it in all likelihood gave him his victory. I don't think he should complaint.

 

[djconnel]

It was completely the correct decision. You can't neutralize the "race" but allow a "sprint". The sprint begins winding up way before the finish.

The idea was to let riders who went down due to what is extraordinary circumstances (motor oil on the road) to recover as best they could before tomorrow's stage. As was pointing out, even NASCAR would have neutralized (yellow flag) under such circumstances.

There's a 3 km rule in effect for crashes at finish because cycling acknowledges that it's important to mitigate some risk (in this case the especially high risk of the final 3 km of a stage in a stage race). This was an example of risk mitigation: oil spilled across a technical descent is not in the spirit of road cycling, and it's not in the interest of the race to have that be the determinant in who wins or loses.

 

[The Sheep]

A neutralization in motor sport doesn't mean the race is over, when it's all cleaned up they race again. If they were doing a neutralization they should have started again when it was together.

 

[sashimono]

... To be fair some complained before it was known that an oil spill caused crash, not sure if Sashimono knew either, he might not have read the previous posts.

I didn't know, but I'm sure Wiggins did and BBC Sport has this:

{Bradley Wiggins was his usual forthright self this morning, dismissing complaints about yesterday's "day of destruction": "We knew it was going to be like this and we're still standing," he said. "No-one said it was going to be easy. Everyone's known it was going to be like this all year, so no-one can complain.


Wiggins, who fell on the descent of the Col de Stockeu, where half of the peloton went down, was not happy with the soft-pedalling tactic. "No-one waited for me when I crashed at the Giro [d'Italia]," he said. "If it's a dangerous time-trial or prologue Fabian [Cancellara] isn't going to slow down and wait for everyone else."}

 

[sportzchick]

once they were under 3ks to go and everyone got the same time the spinters should of been allowed to sprint - allowing thor and the other spinters to go for second would of done nothing towards Frank or Andy.........I cant believe the arrogance of Cancellara to think someone died and made him god of cycling

What wiggans said is spot on

 

[Anonymous]

I didn't know, but I'm sure Wiggins did and BBC Sport has this:

{Bradley Wiggins was his usual forthright self this morning, dismissing complaints about yesterday's "day of destruction": "We knew it was going to be like this and we're still standing," he said. "No-one said it was going to be easy. Everyone's known it was going to be like this all year, so no-one can complain.


Wiggins, who fell on the descent of the Col de Stockeu, where half of the peloton went down, was not happy with the soft-pedalling tactic. "No-one waited for me when I crashed at the Giro [d'Italia]," he said. "If it's a dangerous time-trial or prologue Fabian [Cancellara] isn't going to slow down and wait for everyone else."}

Really? When's the last time 70 guys went down in a TT or Prologue?

Wiggo being Wiggo I suppose.