Teams & Riders Chris Froome Discussion Thread.

[ray j willings]

Nibali’s performances on 5 major climbs in 2014 Tour de France were at the same level compared to Froome last year (also 5 major climbs). I think the difference between Nibali and Froome is that a British rider was more impressive and his attacks more powerful. Contador reached higher avg. power output on major climb in 2009 Tour de France compared to 2013 Froome and 2014 Nibali. Also Armstrong 1999-2005 and Contador 2007 higher power numbers on climbs. Nibali’s values are higher than Pereiro in 2006, Sastre in 2008, Evans in 2011 and Wiggins in 2012

 

[BlurryVII]

Re: Re:

.
My conjecture, based on all the data I'm aware of, is Froome dropping everyone in the mountains but Contador not by much.

That's the thing man, where the hell do you get your data from? This certainly not power output, so is it Col du béal? It can't be since AC came back from 8 weeks without racing.

The only time we can suppose they were closest in form was the Vuelta 14', given their contexts which was roughly the same. Crashing at the Tour and aiming for the Vuelta. Then again, Contador pulled out of the Tour latter than Froome with a much worse injury.

So what else? 2013 just doesn't count if you want to consider both at their best and I guess Vuelta 12' too.

So there's only considering their theoretical best, and Contador 09' is better. I'am convinced he reached that level at the Tour 14', I liked how he accurately said before the start in Yorkshire, something along those lines "My sensations are as good as they were in the Tour 2009" .
Take it as you will but Contador is still able to reach a level that you're probably not suspecting.

 

[Red Rick]

If you look at his climbing in the 2013 Tour, it's a small miracle he got 4th.

 

[ray j willings]

This is all data based ....tried and tested.

Nibali’s performances on 5 major climbs in 2014 Tour de France were at the same level compared to Froome last year (also 5 major climbs). I think the difference between Nibali and Froome is that a British rider was more impressive and his attacks more powerful. Contador reached higher avg. power output on major climb in 2009 Tour de France compared to 2013 Froome and 2014 Nibali. Also Armstrong 1999-2005 and Contador 2007 higher power numbers on climbs. Nibali’s values are higher than Pereiro in 2006, Sastre in 2008, Evans in 2011 and Wiggins in 2012
ray j willings Junior Member

 

[Netserk]

Re:

There something like the No True Scotsman fallacy going on here. If Contador loses, he cannot have been at his best, because we define his best as when he dominates everyone. Then Contador being the one true god of climbing is obviously going to be consistent with any result. To be fair, others are guilty of the same fallascious reasoning with regards to Froome.

Dispassionate observers such as myself instead genuinely try to infer what their respective peaks are - without bringing sympathy or wishful thinking into it - based on the limited data available. To me, that data suggests that Froome with ideal preparation in top form is the best climber in the peloton, and has been since 2012 (ie, the best climbing performance he is capable of was constant for the last 3 years, as opposed to Quintana's and Nibali's which improved, but is still below Froome's.)

This level of climbing performance is still not as good as Contador's in 2009. 09 AC would never get dropped on Ax3 and Ventoux and probably even gain some time. But as Contador hasn't been close to reaching that level since, it's just not interesting nor relevant for today. Contador is in the tail end of his career. Today, we only have indications that there probably isn't much between them when both are at their best, climbing wise. This is based on 2014.

2014 level = 2009 level.

As for your first paragraph, Contador was at his best July '07 but only the 2nd best climber.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

There something like the No True Scotsman fallacy going on here. If Contador loses, he cannot have been at his best, because we define his best as when he dominates everyone. Then Contador being the one true god of climbing is obviously going to be consistent with any result. To be fair, others are guilty of the same fallascious reasoning with regards to Froome.

If you hadn't added that last line, I would have I don't even know how many times I've read Froome was in worse form than Contador at last year's Vuelta because he got beaten.

 

[Jelantik]

Re: Re:

So Contador was obviously in a better shape than Quintana, Uran and Mollema in Trentino because of racing Ruta del Sol before by this logic, but anyway lost. Oh, sorry he did it intentionally to give the opponents some privilege otherwise they are not able to win any race Contador enters.

Either Contador wins either no justice in this world. The world revolves only in this way.

you make a good point. But isn't it we learned later on that contador was injured after his fall too? And.. nooo, i'm not making this into a debate. At TA, catalunya, Contador form was mysteriously different than his Ruta race. Right before the Giro start, we read in the news that he apparently suffered from minor fracture after the fall in TA and Catalunya. So that might cost him his form? or at least an answer how he mysteriously suck after his performance in Ruta?

But yes, I don't disagree with you, if we follow the logic that Contador has raced Ruta so his form should be better than Quintana, Uran. Well, I guess, there's no logic when it comes to human body. Does Contador injury prevent him to perform like in Ruta? dunno, maybe or maybe he just having a bad day or .. i don't know. Same goes to Froome. He has been missing the race due to illness. First comeback, he crashed (FW). So you never know what that affect him. Let's see how Froome does at Dauphene. Will he show his dominance again?

 

[nightingale2016]

Re: Re:

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My conjecture, based on all the data I'm aware of, is Froome dropping everyone in the mountains but Contador not by much.

That's the thing man, where the hell do you get your data from? This certainly not power output, so is it Col du béal? It can't be since AC came back from 8 weeks without racing.

The only time we can suppose they were closest in form was the Vuelta 14', given their contexts which was roughly the same. Crashing at the Tour and aiming for the Vuelta. Then again, Contador pulled out of the Tour latter than Froome with a much worse injury.

So what else? 2013 just doesn't count if you want to consider both at their best and I guess Vuelta 12' too.

So there's only considering their theoretical best, and Contador 09' is better. I'am convinced he reached that level at the Tour 14', I liked how he accurately said before the start in Yorkshire, something along those lines "My sensations are as good as they were in the Tour 2009" .

Take it as you will but Contador is still able to reach a level that you're probably not suspecting.

Your estimation is a bit one-sided because they consist of the only starting point - Contador's shape. Herewith, Froome's form and opponents' form on the whole are taken out of the brackets. Conditions and excuses should work for all riders to the same extent. Contador came back from 8 week no racing break at the Dauphine, alright, following this statement he should've been better than Quintana on TA but it fail to work in some misterious way. In the stages 1 & 2 of the Dauphine that was an absolute parity between Froome and Contador, hereafter Froome crashed and got beaten. Based on what you are convinced Contador would've improved hugely as compared with Froome in a month to trash everyone in the Tour is beyond me. To me, it's wishful thinking. Take a note, I'm not saying Froome is stronger than Contador, I dunno who is stronger now. Only this season will answer the question. I'm just wondering how you interprete Ruta del Sol where both riders obviously started the race with the only aim to win this.

 

[Taxus4a]

Re: Re:

I believe the join decision between him and sky, probably after sky brought him back to earth and reminded him that Giro has the most brutal weather. With him so skinny, asthma and his record so far of getting chest infection, they opted to stir him from the Giro. I don't think it's because Contador's announcement. Besides having Contador doing the Giro, opens up bigger chance for Froome to win another TDF. (not saying that nibs and Quintana aren't a worthy opponent). But with in form Froome, Nibs and Quintana are no match for him.

Wrong Quintana Dropped Froome in his tour winning year,,,2 years on Quintana will drop Froome on at least 2 stages. In form Froome beat nobody when he won his tour "bertie was way off form"

Since then Froome has failed to deliver. Big mountains Froome will get hammered by Quintana.

Your trolling is getting weaker these days Ray,maybe you need a break to recharge your batteries

Quintana did drop froome at the tour. IMO Quintana will drop him again at the tour. That's not trolling that's my opinion. Lets see what happens at the tour shall we.

Quintana was better in the mountains that Froome in his fors Tour, there is not doubt abut that, the only stages Froome put time on him was becouse Quintana attacked from far, and SKY did some work to chase before Froome attack.

Not only Quintana, Purito as well dropred Froome once he recover from his crash previous to Pyrinees.

But Froome is much better in ITT that Quintana and Purito. This year there is litthe ITT, but there is classic stages, wind in Netherland, cobbles,...

Anyway this year Froome is not more favourite that Quintana

 

[Taxus4a]

Re: Re:

Froome got hammered in last stage of Dauphine by Contador, and hammered big time. In fact Froome lost more time there than Contador lost ever to Froome, in all races together

You must know that was because of his crash though. Look at that Froome to the Froome of the Dauphine Stage 2, it's chalk and cheese.

Froome showed in the prologue and in the first mountain stage that he was the stronger rider in Tours last year, and Contador was lucky of their crash in both Dauphiné and Tour, although he showed a big determination and level to win the Vuelta, (by lying about his condition, but that is allowed)

And he Bertie still has a big scar on his knee where he was lying.

What a desperate post

That he was lying then as in several times in his life has out of discussion, while he was saying he wont ride Vuelta some people was wachig him doing hard training in the Swiss Alps.

He just stopped two weeks, that is not too much after 8 days in the Tour, one week even with one mountain stage before his cras, and he trained a month before the Vuelta, that is the best possible preparation for the Vuelta, to ride all the Tour would be worse.

Froome just did 3 days in the Tour and later he didnt ride anything and he take the Vuelta as a training thinking in this year. Contador took the Vuelta as the way to show he could beat Froome even after a crash, so he will treated as a hero...(but this is not out of discussion, this is my opinion, that he lied has no discussion possible)

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

Froome got hammered in last stage of Dauphine by Contador, and hammered big time. In fact Froome lost more time there than Contador lost ever to Froome, in all races together

You must know that was because of his crash though. Look at that Froome to the Froome of the Dauphine Stage 2, it's chalk and cheese.

Froome showed in the prologue and in the first mountain stage that he was the stronger rider in Tours last year, and Contador was lucky of their crash in both Dauphiné and Tour, although he showed a big determination and level to win the Vuelta, (by lying about his condition, but that is allowed)

And he Bertie still has a big scar on his knee where he was lying.

What a desperate post

That he was lying then as in several times in his life has out of discussion, while he was saying he wont ride Vuelta some people was wachig him doing hard training in the Swiss Alps.

He just stopped two weeks, that is not too much after 8 days in the Tour, one week even with one mountain stage before his cras, and he trained a month before the Vuelta, that is the best possible preparation for the Vuelta, to ride all the Tour would be worse.

Froome just did 3 days in the Tour and later he didnt ride anything and he take the Vuelta as a training thinking in this year. Contador took the Vuelta as the way to show he could beat Froome even after a crash, so he will treated as a hero...(but this is not out of discussion, this is my opinion, that he lied has no discussion possible)

So a rider changes his mind to ride a race and you call him a liar

You have no idea what was going on. Do you know Berti personally? No you read a few articles on line and think you know it all

Your just basing your view on prejudice and ignorance and a man crush on Froome.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re: Re:

So a rider changes his mind to ride a race and you call him a liar

You have no idea what was going on. Do you know Berti personally? No you read a few articles on line and think you know it all

Your just basing your view on prejudice and ignorance and a man crush on Froome.

How is that any different than reading an article online and claiming that Froome is a coward? Do you now Chris personally?

 

[Taxus4a]

Re: Re:

Froome got hammered in last stage of Dauphine by Contador, and hammered big time. In fact Froome lost more time there than Contador lost ever to Froome, in all races together

You must know that was because of his crash though. Look at that Froome to the Froome of the Dauphine Stage 2, it's chalk and cheese.

Froome showed in the prologue and in the first mountain stage that he was the stronger rider in Tours last year, and Contador was lucky of their crash in both Dauphiné and Tour, although he showed a big determination and level to win the Vuelta, (by lying about his condition, but that is allowed)

And he Bertie still has a big scar on his knee where he was lying.

What a desperate post [/quote]

That he was lying then as in several times in his life has out of discussion, while he was saying he wont ride Vuelta some people was wachig him doing hard training in the Swiss Alps.

He just stopped two weeks, that is not too much after 8 days in the Tour, one week even with one mountain stage before his cras, and he trained a month before the Vuelta, that is the best possible preparation for the Vuelta, to ride all the Tour would be worse.

Froome just did 3 days in the Tour and later he didnt ride anything and he take the Vuelta as a training thinking in this year. Contador took the Vuelta as the way to show he could beat Froome even after a crash, so he will treated as a hero...(but this is not out of discussion, this is my opinion, that he lied has no discussion possible) [/quote]

So a rider changes his mind to ride a race and you call him a liar

You have no idea what was going on. Do you know Berti personally? No you read a few articles on line and think you know it all

Your just basing your view on prejudice and ignorance and a man crush on Froome.[/quote]

If Jacinto Vidarte saidContador for sure wont ride and he was 5 days before training (one month before the Vuelta) hard he was lying, that is not change his mind, man.

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

So a rider changes his mind to ride a race and you call him a liar

You have no idea what was going on. Do you know Berti personally? No you read a few articles on line and think you know it all

Your just basing your view on prejudice and ignorance and a man crush on Froome.

How is that any different than reading an article online and claiming that Froome is a coward? Do you now Chris personally?

I never called Froome a liar I Posted links where Froome using his own words said he would prefer to ride the giro and not the tour because there is to much climbing. Froome /Sky then decide to ride the tour once Bertie confirms he will ride the Giro. Froome " I Decide what race I ride" It's in the links I posted. Froome has every right to change his mind but If Bertie had not opted for the Giro then Froome would have rode the GT he felt suited him better ,,,,his words.
My post his based on fact not assumption about someone's physical condition or mind set.

 

[ray j willings]

Taxus4a .
Is there a time limit to when you change your mind, 5 days .1 day, 5 minutes?
And why should Froome be worried about what Bertie does?
Bertie does his own thing that's why he's racing now and will race the tour.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re: Re:

[quote="

I never called Froome a liar I Posted links where Froome using his own words said he would prefer to ride the giro and not the tour because there is to much climbing. Froome /Sky then decide to ride the tour once Bertie confirms he will ride the Giro. Froome " I Decide what race I ride" It's in the links I posted. Froome has every right to change his mind but If Bertie had not opted for the Giro then Froome would have rode the GT he felt suited him better ,,,,his words.
My post his based on fact not assumption about someone's physical condition or mind set.

You act like calling someone you don't know a coward is somehow different than calling someone you don't know a liar. Deny it all you want, but it is an apples to apples comparison.

Refresh my memory, where in the article you linked does Froome say that 'he would prefer to ride the giro and not the tour because there is to (sic) much climbing'. Please quit posting distorted facts to suit your preconceived biases.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/racing/tour-de-france/chris-froome-giro-ditalia-big-opportunity-141429

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

[quote="

I never called Froome a liar I Posted links where Froome using his own words said he would prefer to ride the giro and not the tour because there is to much climbing. Froome /Sky then decide to ride the tour once Bertie confirms he will ride the Giro. Froome " I Decide what race I ride" It's in the links I posted. Froome has every right to change his mind but If Bertie had not opted for the Giro then Froome would have rode the GT he felt suited him better ,,,,his words.
My post his based on fact not assumption about someone's physical condition or mind set.

You act like calling someone you don't know a coward is somehow different than calling someone you don't know a liar. Deny it all you want, but it is an apples to apples comparison.

Refresh my memory, where in the article you linked does Froome say that 'he would prefer to ride the giro and not the tour because there is to (sic) much climbing'. Please quit posting distorted facts to suit your preconceived biases.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/racing/tour-de-france/chris-froome-giro-ditalia-big-opportunity-141429

No distorted facts Enjoy ,,,,feel free to apologise as well....


There you go http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/racing/tour-de-france/chris-froome-says-might-ride-tour-de-france-2015-140821

And in my opinion based on what he actually said and not presumptions Froome bottled it.

Enjoy

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re: Re:

[quote="
No distorted facts Enjoy ,,,,feel free to apologise as well....


There you go http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/racing/tour-de-france/chris-froome-says-might-ride-tour-de-france-2015-140821

And in my opinion based on what he actually said and not presumptions Froome bottled it.

Enjoy

Actually, I will be the one waiting for an apology. Try mixing in a little reading comprehension.

Froome statement from article “The team and I will have to give it some careful consideration before we make any commitments to which of the grand tours I will compete in. I see myself as quite a balanced GC rider and the Giro with its inclusion of a long TT of 60km and tough uphill finishes will make it a well balanced race which suits me well. If I did the Giro I may also be able to get myself back to top shape for the Vuelta and go there with a realistic chance of aiming for the win.”

Not to mention the fact that he clearly states that reason that he thought the Tour was less suited to him was due to the decreased # of TT kms (Froome 'There’s very little emphasis on time trialling') and not as you so erroneously suggested, 'to (sic) much climbing'. Pure distortion. SMH

 

[ray j willings]

You need to read the whole thing and not what suits your debate ,,,,,

“There’s no two ways about it, next year’s Tour is going to be about the mountains,” said Froome. “There’s very little emphasis on time trialling, which means the race will be decided up in the high mountains. With six mountaintop finishes it is going to be an aggressive and massively demanding race.”

I think that clears that up , cheers

 

[djpbaltimore]

You need to read the whole thing and not what suits your debate ,,,,,

“There’s no two ways about it, next year’s Tour is going to be about the mountains,” said Froome. “There’s very little emphasis on time trialling, which means the race will be decided up in the high mountains. With six mountaintop finishes it is going to be an aggressive and massively demanding race.”

I think that clears that up , cheers

It absolutely does clear it up. He never says 'to (sic) much climbing' as you incorrectly stated. He says that the TDF is less suited to him because 'there's very little emphasis on time trialling' as I claimed in my post. Thank you for admitting that you were not being factual. Cheers!

 

[ray j willings]

You need to read the whole thing and not what suits your debate ,,,,,

“There’s no two ways about it, next year’s Tour is going to be about the mountains,” said Froome. “There’s very little emphasis on time trialling, which means the race will be decided up in the high mountains. With six mountaintop finishes it is going to be an aggressive and massively demanding race.”

I think that clears that up , cheers

It absolutely does clear it up. He never says 'to (sic) much climbing' as you incorrectly stated. He says that the TDF is less suited to him because 'there's very little emphasis on time trialling' as I claimed in my post. Thank you for admitting that you were not being factual. Cheers!

"There's no way about it next years Tour is going to be about the mountains" Chris Froome

What part of that sentence don't you understand You do understand that Mountains= climbing
I am willing to accept a very very late apology

 

[SeriousSam]

I wonder what the Dawg is thinking, watching the climbing performances of this Giro.

 

[DBotero]

Re:

I wonder what the Dawg is thinking, watching the climbing performances of this Giro.

He's thinking:I would have got at least 1 min.of these guys today,they're weak

 

[Taxus4a]

Re:

Taxus4a .
Is there a time limit to when you change your mind, 5 days .1 day, 5 minutes?
And why should Froome be worried about what Bertie does?
Bertie does his own thing that's why he's racing now and will race the tour.

I change my mind if reality showed me that, Today I changed my mind respect the `possibilities of the breakaway, but the first atack (Pirazzi) was late and the Lampre rider was stronger that I thought.

Respect Froome, Contador, Quintana...when I have changed my mind??

I am agree with what you say, anyway.

 

[Taxus4a]

Re:

I wonder what the Dawg is thinking, watching the climbing performances of this Giro.

I miss something or.. why Froome must be worried?

He is not the best in these short and explosive stages, but he could have followed these three riders today, with problems, that is ok..but in the ITT and in longer stages he can put time without problems.