Teams & Riders Cian Uijtdebroeks - From the wetlands to the top of cycling

[joseph89]

Wild headline: Was teetotaler Uijtdebroeks forcibly given alcohol?

Kreeg geheelonthouder Uijtdebroeks gedwongen alcohol opgegoten? Achtergrond bij hoe hij gepest werd bij BORA

Nieuwe wending in de zaak Cian Uijtdebroeks (20): de jonge Belg zou zijn contract bij BORA-hansgrohe hebben verbroken omdat hij gepest zou zijn. Bij zijn ex-ploeg wordt ontkend. Wie heeft en krijgt gelijk? En hoe kan je pestgedrag eigenlijk bewijzen?

www.hln.be

anyone have access?

 

[Volderke]

It seems Cian is living rent-free in some people's heads. If you connect the dots. You know who I'm talking about.

Anyways, just because I read comments of people who are a bit slow in their thinking, I'll resume:
1. Cian is unhappy at Bora (stating the obvious).
2. Cian gets offersthat Bora likes (from Trek, Ineos).
3. Cian (either influenced by his manager and / or Visma) unilaterally breaks his contract with Bora. This already points to a transfer NOT to e.g. Trek or Ineos (because if so, they would separate in mutual agreement).
4. Cian signs for Visma, a team that didn't agree on a transfer deal with Bora.

Some Q/A:
Q: why didn't Cian go for any other team that offered what Bora wanted (1 mio K) and went for Visma who offers 100K (something Bora doesn't agree with)?
A: I don't know, but I can imagine the following: Cian has offers from Trek and Ineos, but Visma says to Cian: if Bora were bullying you, we won't pay much, and you first try in court (see WvA). If that doesn't work, we'll pay the million, but if it works, we save money.

Q: what is true about the whatsapp and the alcohol and the bullying in general?
A: we don't know. The UCI will receive info on that and decide whether it it's good enough to avoid fines etc.

 

[Rackham]

It's kind of ridiculous, all these strong opinions about a case we still know not that much about. As if we're talking about 8 year old kids who use 'bullying' as a motivation for their own misbehavior. As if Cian's entourage doesn't realize this claim requires enough arguments to be taken seriously.

Anyway. From a new article in Het Nieuwsblad:



An important piece to me:

Belgian media aren't the most neutral on cycling matters. The article is entirely biased, with everything twisted to give a positive spin on Uijtdebroeks & a negative one on Bora. It reads like a hit piece.

 

[IndianCyclist]

This is similar to the situation of WVA. He was frustrated, unhappy. Everyone knew that. Bora probably gave less support and did not even try to extend his contract. The excuse of not having enough money is crap. The riders also decided not to support a person who is not likely to remain in the team and that may have transgressed into making fun of him that may or may not be bullying. Like many top officials of an org, Denk and others may have been ignorant or ignored signs of what was happening at the ground level. Did the topshots at Loto know what Allan Davis was doing? Cian broke his contract and will approach the court. Visma signed him after that. So this is an issue between Cian and Bora without Visma in the picture. Bora valued him at 100k, so it is unlikely that 1 million would be paid as compensation. If Cian has evidence then it maynot be more than 100 k. WVA had a bigger salary and he was only asked to pay 662k.

 

[BigCoward]

I'm not saying it didnt happen, but if this had come out straight away it would have more weight. Sounds like he's making stuff up to defend being a bit of a douche.

 

[Aimar16]

If I were Bora, I wouldn't let the guy go even if someone paid the one million euros. I would give him the minimum support, the equipments that is in his contract, but I would not enter him in any race. Then see how it worked for him if he sits on the bench all year.

 

[Wvv]

Belgian media aren't the most neutral on cycling matters. The article is entirely biased, with everything twisted to give a positive spin on Uijtdebroeks & a negative one on Bora. It reads like a hit piece.

That's a choice of interpretation. I still stand with what I wrote above the article. I find it bizarre to see how people want to see the bad in this kid. Unfortunately that's something that actually often happens to people who are getting bullied. They get misunderstood more easily.

We'll see what's true and what is not, but having a verdict already is premature.

 

[Volderke]

I'm not saying it didnt happen, but if this had come out straight away it would have more weight. Sounds like he's making stuff up to defend being a bit of a douche.

How would you have done things differently?

there are several things at play:

If there is anything 'true' about the bullying, you have to build your case and you can't do this overnight.
Cian was already preparing an exit for longer than the Vuelta, but he was still programmed for the Vuelta: it wouldn't be wise to bring out things while you are still racing for the team. On top of that, JV and SQS were talking about a merger (hampering contract / transfer negotiations with Visma). So if Cian was determined to leave Bora (which is already a risky manouever) and if he was determined to decline offers from Trek and Ineos (which was the 'easy' way out, but Cian probably wanted Visma for the GC knowledge), he had to do things in the right order, whether or not he would try to bring forward that he was being bullied.

For clarity: it is, at this point, mostly journalists stating he was being bullied: I haven't heard Cian making a statement, unless I missed something.

If I were Bora, I wouldn't let the guy go even if someone paid the one million euros. I would give him the minimum support, the equipments that is in his contract, but I would not enter him in any race. Then see how it worked for him if he sits on the bench all year.

A contract is what it is: an agreement. If you don't agree, you're free to go, on the terms in the contract. You are pleading for enslavery.

 

[search]

Belgian media aren't the most neutral on cycling matters. The article is entirely biased, with everything twisted to give a positive spin on Uijtdebroeks & a negative one on Bora. It reads like a hit piece.

I just read an article in Het Belang van Limburg which referred to an "orchestrated attack by teammate Vlasov that cost him his seventh place in the Vuelta" and "Nico Denz [who] even paced the Russian when he placed his attack." So after talking about it for months, they have made up their own truth.

In fact, Uijtdebroeks gained three seconds on Vlasov that stage. He lost 7th in GC two days later, because he was dropped.

 

[Wvv]

If I were Bora, I wouldn't let the guy go even if someone paid the one million euros. I would give him the minimum support, the equipments that is in his contract, but I would not enter him in any race. Then see how it worked for him if he sits on the bench all year.

Well let's hope you never get to decide such things or have to work closely with people then.

 

[Netserk]

I just read an article in Het Belang van Limburg which referred to an "orchestrated attack by teammate Vlasov that cost him his seventh place in the Vuelta" and "Nico Denz [who] even paced the Russian when he placed his attack." So after talking about it for months, they have made up their own truth.

In fact, Uijtdebroeks gained three seconds on Vlasov that stage. He lost 7th in GC two days later, because he was dropped.

Forgive them, they are merely Belgians.

 

[Wvv]

I just read an article in Het Belang van Limburg which referred to an "orchestrated attack by teammate Vlasov that cost him his seventh place in the Vuelta" and "Nico Denz [who] even paced the Russian when he placed his attack." So after talking about it for months, they have made up their own truth.

In fact, Uijtdebroeks gained three seconds on Vlasov that stage. He lost 7th in GC two days later, because he was dropped.

It's not because it failed, that it did not happen... It was a weird action that day.

Anyway, dropping out of the discussion. Don't want to end up on one side of an argument receiving all the bullets. I just a desire a bit more nuance when talking about stuff like this, instead of all the early accusations.

 

[Aimar16]

A contract is what it is: an agreement. If you don't agree, you're free to go, on the terms in the contract. You are pleading for enslavery.

What? I wrote that they should just give him what's in his contract. Nothing else. I doubt he has a clause in his contract that says he has to race.

Things like this happen a lot in different sports, like football. PSG sent Rabiot to the stands all season long because he didn't want to extend his contract, or recently Man Utd won't let Sancho play because he badmouthed the coach.

 

[search]

It's not because it failed, that it did not happen... It was a weird action that day.

of course it was, but it's interesting how it turned from "Vlasov attacked" into "Vlasov attacked Uijtdebroeks" and finally into "Vlasov cost Uijtdebroeks 7th place", just because it fits better into the current narrative. Although it's not true at all.

 

[Volderke]

I wrote that they should just give him what's in his contract. Nothing else. I doubt he has a clause in his contract that says he has to race.

That's the whole point: what they 'give' him in his contract (or better: are entitled to take if he terminates his contract) is what he doesn't agree upon and he decided to quit (and he's free to do that, but it has consequences, mostly in terms of money / fines). You make it sound like Bora can force him to stay, or that he would want to act like Sam Bennett (receive his paycheck without racing).

 

[Faserr]

I just read an article in Het Belang van Limburg which referred to an "orchestrated attack by teammate Vlasov that cost him his seventh place in the Vuelta" and "Nico Denz [who] even paced the Russian when he placed his attack." So after talking about it for months, they have made up their own truth.

In fact, Uijtdebroeks gained three seconds on Vlasov that stage. He lost 7th in GC two days later, because he was dropped.

Yes. He lost place 7th because he couldn't follow the best at stage 20. Vlasov didn't even contribut to the pace making on that stage and just followed wheels if I remember this correctly.

 

[Bolder]

If I were Bora, I wouldn't let the guy go even if someone paid the one million euros. I would give him the minimum support, the equipments that is in his contract, but I would not enter him in any race. Then see how it worked for him if he sits on the bench all year.

There are some interesting mechanisms in US pro sports like arbitration that could help a guy like Cian. Many baseball contracts have an arbitration clause, in which a player who hits certain targets can ask a neutral party to decide on their next salary. It's used less and less but for a promising rider like Cian it would be interesting to see...

 

[theyoungest]

What? I wrote that they should just give him what's in his contract. Nothing else. I doubt he has a clause in his contract that says he has to race.

Things like this happen a lot in different sports, like football. PSG sent Rabiot to the stands all season long because he didn't want to extend his contract, or recently Man Utd won't let Sancho play because he badmouthed the coach.

I believe a team does have to offer a rider a minimum number of race days (provided that you're fit, of course). It doesn't have to be in the biggest races, but you do have to race.

But if Bora only starts Uijtdebroeks in the Tour of Luxembourg and so on, he has an even stronger case that his team is bullying him. So good luck with that.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Just to clarify, labour laws are one thing, and contract law something else. Labour law means if Cian wants to ride for Visma that's fine, if Cian had a valid contract with Bora then Bora have a right to sue and claim compensation.

No that is not true. Cian can't just decide freely. The card his agent and Visma are now playing at is there is, they claim, there is no more contract with Bora. Due to i guess alleged bullying. But in the end nobody has made any sort of ruling about that yet. So currently Cian can't be signed with Visma. As contract with Bora hasn't been terminated yet. So all that PR stuff for Visma. That in the end means nothing. The teams still need to reach an agreement and if they won't, then UCI will made a decision for them. If UCI will back Bora then Cian won't ride for Visma in 2024 season. If UCI will back Visma then Bora will likely sue (Austrian court labour laws). On top of that if UCI backs Bora then Visma if facing 500k fine and Cian 100k.

P.S. I wonder on how much his agent will pay in that case?

 

[CyclistAbi]

This is to be determined, the level of alleged bullying in the team. And if it happened to be sanctioned based on the extent of the bullying. But OK in the end Cian wanted to move to another team. Bora was OK with that and started to look for options. In their claims not because of bullying but due to realization it will be hard for them to keep Cian. Due to having less money then other teams and other teams having great interest in Cian. So far so good.

But then on why didn't Visma pay one million? Why are they insisting they are entitled to get Cian for free or at best for peanuts? As that obvisuly won't happen and is the main catalyst for this whole saga. As they must know they won't get away with it then it must suit them in some way. Likely something to investigate and to be determined in the future. First decisions for sure being made in the December.

P.S. As for some journalists emerging, with their claims and "deep insights". This in my opinion can be supported by some sort of agenda. So i will rather wait for the UCI decision. Regarding bullying. As there the evidence will need to be presented and not just hearsay.

 

[IndianCyclist]

What? I wrote that they should just give him what's in his contract. Nothing else. I doubt he has a clause in his contract that says he has to race.

Things like this happen a lot in different sports, like football. PSG sent Rabiot to the stands all season long because he didn't want to extend his contract, or recently Man Utd won't let Sancho play because he badmouthed the coach.

Its called retaliation and that is going to get Bora screwed in any Belgian court and they may have to pay damages as well for lost achievements. Its in the UCI rules that they have to let him race. If Bora keep him and he does not race, they lose 100k. If they let him go now, they lose nothing. So the situation isn't any better monetary wise. Rabiot and Sancho are cases of infringement by the player first and then the subsequent disciplinary action by the clubs, not retaliation.

 

[Aimar16]

That's the whole point: what they 'give' him in his contract (or better: are entitled to take if he terminates his contract) is what he doesn't agree upon and he decided to quit (and he's free to do that, but it has consequences, mostly in terms of money / fines). You make it sound like Bora can force him to stay, or that he would want to act like Sam Bennett (receive his paycheck without racing).

As far as I know he has a valid contract with Bora until the end of 2024. I don't quite see how he can terminate this contract freely as you write...

There are some interesting mechanisms in US pro sports like arbitration that could help a guy like Cian. Many baseball contracts have an arbitration clause, in which a player who hits certain targets can ask a neutral party to decide on their next salary. It's used less and less but for a promising rider like Cian it would be interesting to see...

He has a valid contract, so a salary arbitration will not help. In this case, the rider has decided to terminate the contract, although the legal justification for this is not yet clear.

Its called retaliation and that is going to get Bora screwed in any Belgian court and they may have to pay damages as well for lost achievements. Its in the UCI rules that they have to let him race. If Bora keep him and he does not race, they lose 100k. If they let him go now, they lose nothing. So the situation isn't any better monetary wise. Rabiot and Sancho are cases of infringement by the player first and then the subsequent disciplinary action by the clubs, not retaliation.

A) If there really is a rule that he has to race, although I don't know what the justification is, then they'll just send him to the least prestigious races.
B) I don't know what was the infringement when Rabiot simply refused to extend his contract. And there are many examples of players who didn't want to extend their contract with the club and therefore they didn't play them. This is a proven and common tactic in football
C) If someone is committing an infringement in this case, it was Cian. He claims to have terminated his contract, but on what legal basis? I'm sure the law is on Bora's side. And they can treat him as having breached his contract; suspend him, fine him....

If I were Bora, I'd do everything in my power to make sure that this toolbox doesn't take part in any cycling race in 2024. Not only is he damaging the team's reputation, but he is also making accusations against the team's riders. I'd rather take the side of those who want to compete in Bora than let this guy bully his way out of his contract.

 

[theyoungest]

If I were Bora, I'd do everything in my power to make sure that this toolbox doesn't take part in any cycling race in 2024. Not only is he damaging the team's reputation, but he is also making accusations against the team's riders. I'd rather take the side of those who want to compete in Bora than let this guy bully his way out of his contract.

You're getting ahead of yourself. It seems his crime is mainly that he joined Visma. And supposedly he accuses Bora of bullying, which can't be true because they're the new Promised Land since they liberated Roglic from the shackles of evil. But Uijtdebroeks hasn't even spoken publicly about the case yet, and neither have his lawyers. Bora have, but not Uijtdebroeks. You're acting like he's writing these articles currently appearing in the press. So far, he hasn't accused them of anything (except not preparing his bike properly for the Chrono des Nations).

 

[Volderke]

As far as I know he has a valid contract with Bora until the end of 2024. I don't quite see how he can terminate this contract freely as you write...

I never wrote 'freely'. I wrote, according to the terms. That means that terminating your contract unilaterally will result in paying fines etc.

In this case, the rider has decided to terminate the contract, although the legal justification for this is not yet clear.

You can always terminate your contract like you are free to divorce etc... Always. Nobody can force you to work. But terminating has consequences (just like a divorce). I don't know what's so hard for you to understand. There doesn't have to be 'legal justification' to terminate. Legal justification is handy, though, if you are contesting e.g. fines when terminating the contract.

If I were Bora, I'd do everything in my power to make sure that this toolbox doesn't take part in any cycling race in 2024.

The only one that has power with regards to allow Cian to race, is the UCI. Not Bora. Nobody can force a rider to race with a certain team if he's not willing to. And no team can retaliate in a way that they prohibit a rider to race for another team. The only thing that will happen is the UCI deciding if fines are applicable when the contract has been terminated unilaterally, and they can e.h. suspend the license of Cian if those fines aren't paid. But while the fight is going on in court, the rider can race. See WvA.

Not only is he damaging the team's reputation, but he is also making accusations against the team's riders.

I honestly fail to see where Cian has accused team mates. Do you have a statement or interview on this?

 

[roundabout]

You're getting ahead of yourself. It seems his crime is mainly that he joined Visma. And supposedly he accuses Bora of bullying, which can't be true because they're the new Promised Land since they liberated Roglic from the shackles of evil. But Uijtdebroeks hasn't even spoken publicly about the case yet, and neither have his lawyers. Bora have, but not Uijtdebroeks. You're acting like he's writing these articles currently appearing in the press. So far, he hasn't accused them of anything (except not preparing his bike properly for the Chrono des Nations).

You wrote yourself a few pages back that what is written in the articles are 'facts'.

So either the pro-Uijtdebroeks articles are not getting first-hand information, so it's hardly facts, or Uijtdebroeks camp is feeding this information to the journos happy to take his side, so it does not matter if he speaks publicly or not.