Teams & Riders Cian Uijtdebroeks - From the wetlands to the top of cycling

[CyclistAbi]

It seems his crime is mainly that he joined Visma.

Based on all we discussed i would say sort of indeed. That is we now know Cian wanted to leave and Bora said OK. Knowing it would be hard to keep him due to all the interest from other teams and his growing frustration in the team. Bora started to look for options and got two offers. Both were not acceptable for Cian.

So after he, likely under the influence of his new agent, decided to solo, made accusations about bullying at Bora and Visma went with that. That is for whatever reason involved Visma does not want to pay a fair compensation for Cian. To end this saga. So until they explain on why exactly. They are sort of the one to be blamed here, yes. By Blame i mean UCI won't register Cian to ride for Visma in the 2024 season and in that case a fine is pending. So in my opinion the move here is on Visma.

Unless i guess there really was systematic bullying going on at Bora. Then Bora will pay the price. But somehow i feel that if the severity would be such, this would come out sooner, then now. For example the amount of bullying was not enough for Cian to sign for Ineos or LT.

 

[roundabout]

I honestly fail to see where Cian has accused team mates. Do you have a statement or interview on this?

So since Uijtdebroeks has not publicly accused his team mates of anything, does that mean that all things written about Bora recently did not happen, since Bora denied them and Uijtdebroeks never confirmed them?

 

[Volderke]

You wrote yourself a few pages back that what is written in the articles are 'facts'.

So either the pro-Uijtdebroeks articles are not getting first-hand information, so it's hardly facts, or Uijtdebroeks camp is feeding this information to the journos happy to take his side, so it does not matter if he speaks publicly or not.

What can Cian do about this?

He cannot speak as long as it's not settled and going to court. At the other hand, if he doesn't speak / doesn't leak, people (especially on this forum) will already blame him as they assume, when nothing is leaking, there isn't anything and thus they already know everything to trial him.

 

[roundabout]

What can Cian do about this?

He cannot speak as long as it's not settled and going to court. At the other hand, if he doesn't speak / doesn't leak, people (especially on this forum) will already blame him as they assume, when nothing is leaking, there isn't anything and thus they already know everything to trial him.

That's a whole other thing vs the argument that Uijtdebroeks never said anything directly so we can pretend that he isn't accusing anyone of anything.

 

[CyclistAbi]

So all in all this is what is going to happen. By far most likely:

Option A: Visma can pay 500k in fines, Cian 100k, and for Visma to sign Cian in 2025 season. For free.
Option B: Visma can make an agreement with Bora, at around 1 million, and then the saga is resolved and Cian can ride Giro 2024 for Visma.

P.S. There is option C, systematic bullying at Bora gets proven, contract with Bora terminated, Visma gets Cian for free starting with the 2024 season. Bora likely then sues. But this option is in my opinion less likely then option A or B. We'll see.

 

[theyoungest]

That's a whole other thing vs the argument that Uijtdebroeks never said anything directly so we can pretend that he isn't accusing anyone of anything.

But he hasn't! It's a bit unfair to start calling someone names because journalists write that he got bullied... not just unfair, also a little absurd.

As for me using the word "facts", if I did, I'm sorry as I can't possibly know any of this is true. However, if a journalist gets confirmation from multiple sources that for instance this Whatsapp group existed, he can report on it and it's at least credible. If he's not allowed to do so, things become a bit cult-like.

 

[Aimar16]

You're getting ahead of yourself. It seems his crime is mainly that he joined Visma. And supposedly he accuses Bora of bullying, which can't be true because they're the new Promised Land since they liberated Roglic from the shackles of evil. But Uijtdebroeks hasn't even spoken publicly about the case yet, and neither have his lawyers. Bora have, but not Uijtdebroeks. You're acting like he's writing these articles currently appearing in the press. So far, he hasn't accused them of anything (except not preparing his bike properly for the Chrono des Nations).

Who could be the source of the childish articles in the Dutch press claiming that Cian was not in a group chat on the messaging app and that he felt bullied?

I never wrote 'freely'. I wrote, according to the terms. That means that terminating your contract unilaterally will result in paying fines etc.

You can always terminate your contract like you are free to divorce etc... Always. Nobody can force you to work. But terminating has consequences (just like a divorce). I don't know what's so hard for you to understand. There doesn't have to be 'legal justification' to terminate. Legal justification is handy, though, if you are contesting e.g. fines when terminating the contract.

The only one that has power with regards to allow Cian to race, is the UCI. Not Bora. Nobody can force a rider to race with a certain team if he's not willing to. And no team can retaliate in a way that they prohibit a rider to race for another team. The only thing that will happen is the UCI deciding if fines are applicable when the contract has been terminated unilaterally, and they can e.h. suspend the license of Cian if those fines aren't paid. But while the fight is going on in court, the rider can race. See WvA.

I honestly fail to see where Cian has accused team mates. Do you have a statement or interview on this?

I still don't really understand how he can terminate his contract unilaterally. If he do not want to race the Bora, that's fine... but there is still a valid contract in point of view of the team, according to the law and registered with the government body (UCI). If he breaks this contract, such as not reporting for training, not communicating with the team, they can suspend him. Team doesn't have to pay him and stuff... So yeah, no one is forcing him to race for Bora. But that doesn't mean he's free to move to another team if he pays some 'imaginary fine'

 

[search]

On bici.pro there's quite an interesting interview (in Italian) with Brent Copeland, who talks a bit about how transfers usually work, and what he thinks about the Uijtdebroeks case:

(gt) "This year we took two runners who were under contract: one is Plapp, the other is Caleb Ewan. There is a procedure to follow. [...] You must first seek authorization from the CCP, the Professional Cycling Council chaired by Tom Van Damme. Even the regulations say that you have to ask for authorization before talking to the runner or his agent. Obviously this is difficult, because if there is the possibility of a transfer it means that you have already had a contact. Then an agreement is made between three parties: the old team, the new and the runner for the financial part linked to the costs of the transfer. Only then can we proceed to the contract between the athlete and the new team. [...]

if this procedure is followed correctly, there are no problems. The rider is not happy with his team, is he looking for something else or maybe a new team has made him a more important offer or something else? These are the protocols to follow. Instead it seems to me here that nothing has been followed, because if a team announces that a rider has signed with them and after an hour the current team says that it remains there, it seems to me that the image of a sport that is anything but professional. And in my opinion it means that the correct procedures have not been followed [...]

We, for example, three years ago from Jumbo took Groenewegen, following the procedures correctly. We have asked permission to proceed with the negotiations to Tom Van Damme. At that point we asked Jumbo how much he wanted for the runner. So we signed all the agreements and the passage was successful, without any problem. Here it is evident, although not knowing the details, that the boy is not happy with the team and that there are frictions, for materials, for the treatments received. Whatever is underneath, you sit at a table, you ask the team if you are willing to pay a figure, you make a negotiation, you put down an agreement between the three parties and move on. Instead, it seems to me that the rider has decided to break the contract without closing well with the current team. Maybe the Bora may have done something wrong, I don’t know, but that doesn’t relieve you of the rules."

 

[roundabout]

But he hasn't! It's a bit unfair to start calling someone names because journalists write that he got bullied... not just unfair, also a little absurd.

As for me using the word "facts", if I did, I'm sorry as I can't possibly know any of this is true. However, if a journalist gets confirmation from multiple sources that for instance this Whatsapp group existed, he can report on it and it's at least credible. If he's not allowed to do so, things become a bit cult-like.

So who are the people confirming the bullying? Not Uijtdebroeks himself, right?

Bullies? People who have seen the bullying, but never reported it to the team management, but felt the need to mention it to the journalists right at the suitable time for Uijtdebroeks? Who?

 

[theyoungest]

Who could be the source of the childish articles in the Dutch press claiming that Cian was not in a group chat on the messaging app and that he felt bullied?

See, there you go again. "Childish articles in the Dutch press"... you mean an hour long podcast by Thijs Zonneveld where he analyzed the Uijtdebroeks case, brought arguments for and against, and also reported on the supposed anti-Cian Whatsapp group created by the other riders during the Vuelta, adding that Cian would have to prove this in front of a judge. A very fair journalistic approach. So he's not allowed to report this if it comes from Uijtdebroek's camp in some way? Only the Bora reactions, so extensively reported on by Cyclingnews, are admissable?

So who are the people confirming the bullying? Not Uijtdebroeks himself, right?

Bullies? People who have seen the bullying, but never reported it to the team management, but felt the need to mention it to the journalists right at the suitable time for Uijtdebroeks? Who?

When a case like this emerges, a good journalist starts asking around. Reporting, you know. That's what they do. So the argument of great timing for Uijtdebroeks isn't that relevant. Maybe people weren't asked about it before, or didn't think too much of it.

 

[Berniece]

On bici.pro there's quite an interesting interview (in Italian) with Brent Copeland, who talks a bit about how transfers usually work, and what he thinks about the Uijtdebroeks case:

(gt) "This year we took two runners who were under contract: one is Plapp, the other is Caleb Ewan. There is a procedure to follow. [...] You must first seek authorization from the CCP, the Professional Cycling Council chaired by Tom Van Damme. Even the regulations say that you have to ask for authorization before talking to the runner or his agent. Obviously this is difficult, because if there is the possibility of a transfer it means that you have already had a contact. Then an agreement is made between three parties: the old team, the new and the runner for the financial part linked to the costs of the transfer. Only then can we proceed to the contract between the athlete and the new team. [...]

if this procedure is followed correctly, there are no problems. The rider is not happy with his team, is he looking for something else or maybe a new team has made him a more important offer or something else? These are the protocols to follow. Instead it seems to me here that nothing has been followed, because if a team announces that a rider has signed with them and after an hour the current team says that it remains there, it seems to me that the image of a sport that is anything but professional. And in my opinion it means that the correct procedures have not been followed [...]

We, for example, three years ago from Jumbo took Groenewegen, following the procedures correctly. We have asked permission to proceed with the negotiations to Tom Van Damme. At that point we asked Jumbo how much he wanted for the runner. So we signed all the agreements and the passage was successful, without any problem. Here it is evident, although not knowing the details, that the boy is not happy with the team and that there are frictions, for materials, for the treatments received. Whatever is underneath, you sit at a table, you ask the team if you are willing to pay a figure, you make a negotiation, you put down an agreement between the three parties and move on. Instead, it seems to me that the rider has decided to break the contract without closing well with the current team. Maybe the Bora may have done something wrong, I don’t know, but that doesn’t relieve you of the rules."

Shows how badly Jumbo might have handled this.

 

[roundabout]

Where is the idea coming from that the pro-Uijtdebroeks side of the story should not be reported?

 

[pastronef]

For example the amount of bullying was not enough for Cian to sign for Ineos or LT.

this

 

[CyclistAbi]

Bora-Hansgrohe DS 'completely surprised' by Uijtdebroeks' bullying allegations

'I hope from the bottom of my heart that it's not true' says Jean-Pierre Heynderickx

www.cyclingnews.com

Former Bora-Hansgrohe directeur sportif Jean-Pierre Heynderickx has reacted with surprise at the suggestion that riders from the German team may have bullied Cian Uijtdebroeks during the Vuelta a Espana, saying, "I hope from the bottom of my heart that it's not true."

"I wouldn't let it pass and would absolutely want to know who set up that WhatsApp group, which riders and staff were part of it and what was said and written. I hope from the bottom of my heart that it's not true."

If true then the management highest in the hierarchy didn't know. So best to determine on which level this was conducted. That is potentially sanctioning some riders or the team as a whole. If there are grounds for it.

Dutch journalist Thijs Zonneveld first raised the allegations earlier this week, saying that the Belgian was "treated like a kind of nerd" by Bora-Hansgrohe riders and staff, adding others on the team participated in an 'Anti-Cian' WhatsApp group at the Spanish Grand Tour.

Further revelations were put forward by Zonneveld on Monday, with the Dutchman claiming that Uijtdebroeks was made fun of because he was fastidious about his diet, bike setup, and clothing.

"He was treated like a kind of nerd by other riders, but also by team leaders," Zonneveld said. "That was because he was very fanatical about certain things. He was weighing his diet, he didn't think his time trial bike was aerodynamic enough, he didn't think his clothing was good enough, so he bought different socks himself.

"He was like someone in high school who got an A because he studied well, only to be told, 'Oh, you got an A again?!"

I don't know to be honest. It's not all that nice and i agree with that. But to me this reads more as not being appreciated. By i guess your peers. In the end that is life? I am mostly not appreciated either.

So i guess lets move on to the real question. Why is Visma refusing to pay a fair price for Cian. The thing mentioned above isn't related to it in any meaningful way. Maybe we will get that answer at some point in the future. And i just realized. Agent can i guess get sued too. If he deceived Visma, by for example claiming Cian is out of the contract with Bora. But that is something for Visma to decide and for the courts.

 

[Jagartrott]

C) If someone is committing an infringement in this case, it was Cian. He claims to have terminated his contract, but on what legal basis? I'm sure the law is on Bora's side. And they can treat him as having breached his contract; suspend him, fine him....

Ah, so you're sure huh. Quite a ridiculous statement seeing that what you've written here does not display much legal knowledge.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Meh. I guess they all tried. Hard to blame them for that.

They all will likely climb down the tree by the end of December. And to move on. Peer pressure, unrealistic expectations, agents ... more then enough ingredients to act a bit wonky. It will be fine.

 

[joseph89]

“The file is still being investigated by the UCI legal department,” says Tom Van Damme. “Only when they have completed their work can it be submitted to me for signature.”

Van Damme: “If the story of the bullying is true, it is of course worrying. These facts must then be presented to the disciplinary committee. But did Uijtdebroeks report this himself? I do not know."

Ook UCI zette nog geen handtekening onder transfer Cian Uijtdebroeks: “Dossier wordt onderzocht door juridische dienst”

In de transfer van Cian Uijtdebroeks ontbreekt ook nog de handtekening van de UCI. Dat zegt Tom Van Damme, voorzitter van de Professional Cycling Council (PCC) binnen de UCI.

www.hln.be

 

[Extinction]

Bora-Hansgrohe DS 'completely surprised' by Uijtdebroeks' bullying allegations

'I hope from the bottom of my heart that it's not true' says Jean-Pierre Heynderickx

www.cyclingnews.com

If true then the management highest in the hierarchy didn't know. So best to determine on which level this was conducted. That is potentially sanctioning some riders or the team as a whole. If there are grounds for it.





I don't know to be honest. It's not all that nice and i agree with that. But to me this reads more as not being appreciated. By i guess your peers. In the end that is life? I am mostly not appreciated either.

So i guess lets move on to the real question. Why is Visma refusing to pay a fair price for Cian. The thing mentioned above isn't related to it in any meaningful way. Maybe we will get that answer at some point in the future. And i just realized. Agent can i guess get sued too. If he deceived Visma, by for example claiming Cian is out of the contract with Bora. But that is something for Visma to decide and for the courts.

If it goes to court place a warrant on their cell phones and see if harassment took place, if so, then broker for a non-financial release. I suppose a 1 million dollari transfer free would be weighed against what Visma thinks Cian can deliver in the future. Investments are usually done thusly.

 

[CyclistAbi]

When the agent got involved likely they got this genius idea. Lets terminate the contract, based on some misconduct, then there is more in it for us. Cian just wanted out, relationships tainted, Visma likely felt entitled to get Cian, for free, considering the King transfer to Bora, agent, well ... All in all more money involved for all and they all went for it. Now lets see if this was such a genius move after all. Considering Cian is up to this moment still under contract with Bora.

 

[Colonel]

Santa Claus is more believable than this sheer desperation act from Cian and his posse.

 

[CyclistAbi]

It's kind of flattering and shows respect, though. I will give them that. That is more than 3 millions for Rogla and still the expectation to get Cian for free. That pushes Rogličes valuation, contract termination, at minimum to 4 millions.

 

[acm]

On bici.pro there's quite an interesting interview (in Italian) with Brent Copeland, who talks a bit about how transfers usually work, and what he thinks about the Uijtdebroeks case:

(gt) "This year we took two runners who were under contract: one is Plapp, the other is Caleb Ewan. There is a procedure to follow. [...] You must first seek authorization from the CCP, the Professional Cycling Council chaired by Tom Van Damme. Even the regulations say that you have to ask for authorization before talking to the runner or his agent. Obviously this is difficult, because if there is the possibility of a transfer it means that you have already had a contact. Then an agreement is made between three parties: the old team, the new and the runner for the financial part linked to the costs of the transfer. Only then can we proceed to the contract between the athlete and the new team. [...]

if this procedure is followed correctly, there are no problems. The rider is not happy with his team, is he looking for something else or maybe a new team has made him a more important offer or something else? These are the protocols to follow. Instead it seems to me here that nothing has been followed, because if a team announces that a rider has signed with them and after an hour the current team says that it remains there, it seems to me that the image of a sport that is anything but professional. And in my opinion it means that the correct procedures have not been followed [...]

We, for example, three years ago from Jumbo took Groenewegen, following the procedures correctly. We have asked permission to proceed with the negotiations to Tom Van Damme. At that point we asked Jumbo how much he wanted for the runner. So we signed all the agreements and the passage was successful, without any problem. Here it is evident, although not knowing the details, that the boy is not happy with the team and that there are frictions, for materials, for the treatments received. Whatever is underneath, you sit at a table, you ask the team if you are willing to pay a figure, you make a negotiation, you put down an agreement between the three parties and move on. Instead, it seems to me that the rider has decided to break the contract without closing well with the current team. Maybe the Bora may have done something wrong, I don’t know, but that doesn’t relieve you of the rules."

That is the best interview/article regarding Cian drama in recent days. Really great.

 

[Skijumper Roglic fan]

So what is your take on Visma refusing to pay a fair compensation for Cian and believing they can get away with it?

I think the fact they gave Roglic away plays a role, for sure. Then, Cian and his legal team (lawyer, family?, manager) probably communicated to Visma that Cian was free to move, free to sign a contract elsewhere.

Then I suppose Visma and Plugge follow the example of the cases of Roglic, different early leaving DSM riders, and the rumours of Remco leaving Soudal prematurely. Maybe they want to create/add a precedent. The phenomenon of premature transfers in pro cycling apparently is here to stay - even Lefevere felt the need to comment and demand for a reform of transfer regulations.

And, finally, I feel that Plugge and Jumbo/Visma grew more self confident and proud over the last years. They apparently feel strong enough to finalize the Uijtdebroeks transfer the way they want it to work.

I can understand this, their self confidence, since I like the team, and like that they changed from „Rabofail“ into a/the leading team, finally.

And, Plugge and Visma do not (yet?) fear Bora. I think they wouldn’t have dared to sign Uijtdebroeks in this situation, if Uijtdebroeks would have ridden for Bahrain, for example, beforehand. Visma is an 1a team, Bora „1a/b“ rather.

 

[Volderke]

So who are the people confirming the bullying? Not Uijtdebroeks himself, right?

Bullies? People who have seen the bullying, but never reported it to the team management, but felt the need to mention it to the journalists right at the suitable time for Uijtdebroeks? Who?

Cian has a case to be made in front of court. It would be very unwise of him to publicly adress the rumours.
The fact this comes out now in the media is most likely because people have been starting to ask questions to Cian's entourage why he is leaving. It's pretty normal that some people in his entourage will say something, no?

Only the UCI will judge if Cian has a case or not. My cynical me tells me that (ofcourse) Cian will bring this forward to reduce any fines he's facing for leaving Bora unilaterally. My "I am compassionate with a 20-year old that is making less money than I am"-me is telling me that the whatsapp group alone is enough to run for the hills and to hold my ground not to pay anything to Bora.

Truth will somewhere be in the middle.

 

[Skijumper Roglic fan]

Poor Bora can buy Roglic out of his contract and offer him a better salary than Jumbo could

You seem to do a lot of assuming based on the fact that Ralph Denk is a nice guy. Which he probably is, I don't know. But at the same time you're making Uijtdebroeks out to be this liar who is only in it for the money. Then let me ask you: why didn't he just go to Ineos or Trek, who have more money to spend than Visma do at this point, and who could actually pay the one million that Bora wanted? If it's purely about the money, that would have been the way easier route. The way it's going now he's opening himself up to a lot of hate from people like yourself, which I'm sure he'd rather have avoided.

I think you mention good points, which I mostly couldn’t deny.

To reasonably answer particularly the question why Uijtdebroeks opted for Visma instead of Ineos or Lidl-Trek, I myself now would be interested in getting to know the (2024) rider budgets of mentioned teams, and the certain annual payment Uijtdebroeks will receive at Visma, and would have received at, let‘s say, Ineos or Lidl.

Former Sky rider Boswell recently mentioned that more than one rider recently chose Visma over Ineos, earning less money, but enjoying better development perspectives at Visma. Maybe this played a decisive role also in Uijtdebroeks‘s case.

The thing is, when Uijtdebroeks signed his „long-term“ contract at Bora, he probably felt satisfied about agreement on salary. Very likely, this changed quite quickly, afterwards. Hard to judge, without getting to read the contract itself, however.

I think all in all, Uijtdebroeks in recent months probably developed a feeling that Bora wasn’t „good enough“, for him, anymore. This might have led him to negotiate with Visma, among, others, probably…