Teams & Riders Cian Uijtdebroeks - From the wetlands to the top of cycling

[CyclistAbi]

@Skijumper Roglic fan

Thanks for thinking out loud. Indeed likely somewhere in this direction is where the gist of the whole story is. Not getting Remco indeed might have increased the desire or better the need to get Cian. Lets hence see if the genius plan will work out, as they envisioned it.

 

[xo 1]

So i guess lets move on to the real question. Why is Visma refusing to pay a fair price for Cian. The thing mentioned above isn't related to it in any meaningful way. Maybe we will get that answer at some point in the future. And i just realized. Agent can i guess get sued too. If he deceived Visma, by for example claiming Cian is out of the contract with Bora. But that is something for Visma to decide and for the courts.

I'm not sure that Visma has been damaged in a legally cognizable manner in this scenario. The most I can come up would be reputational damage and perhaps defense costs if Visma is sued by Bora for tortious interference with its contract with Cian. But I can't imagine it comes to that, as the UCI should step in to sort out whether Cian has any right to cycle for Visma next year. If not, then no harm. If the UCI decides Cian can break his contract, then Visma won't have been damaged by agent.

 

[Skijumper Roglic fan]

I by the way think these allegations about an „Anti-Cian Whatsapp group“ do not sound too trustworthy.

In fact, one has to consider the typical mentality of recent and current (WT) pro riders.

I think there is hardly ever such thing as bullying someone for being TOO much professional.

Very most of these racers rather are driven by surpassing each other in professionalism. Many of them are almost maniacs. At this level, performance is everything.

The guys who joke and bully about being „too (insanely) professional“ rather do not survive the big selections after junior, or, at the latest, after U23 categories.

And, particularly, the Vuelta, being a hot and hard GT after a long season, certainly is not the time and place for riders joking (= losing energy?) about a serious and professional co-leader of their team. If Bora would have such (infantile?) riders in their roster, they probably would not be among the top cycling teams of the world, all year long.

The mentality among these guys is rather a serious and humourless one, where each and everybody tries to hide any weaknesses and problems, and hardly anyone dares to have a laugh at the dinner table - or is just too tired for stuff like this…

 

[theyoungest]

I'm not sure that Visma has been damaged in a legally cognizable manner in this scenario. The most I can come up would be reputational damage and perhaps defense costs if Visma is sued by Bora for tortious interference with its contract with Cian. But I can't imagine it comes to that, as the UCI should step in to sort out whether Cian has any right to cycle for Visma next year. If not, then no harm. If the UCI decides Cian can break his contract, then Visma won't have been damaged by agent.

The public (and even people at Bora) assume that Visma is a party in the case, but if Uijtdebroeks contends his contract has terminated on December 1st, they're actually not. Just like they weren't in the Van Aert vs. Verandas Willems case. Unless, like you say, they somehow tried to lure Uijtdebroeks away from Bora beforehand, but even then it's pretty easy to bring up similar cases that went unpunished. They wouldn't need to look very far, Bora approaching Roglic during the Vuelta is of course the obvious one. I also don't think it's illegal to take a rider from another team on a training camp.

I think you mention good points, which I mostly couldn’t deny.

To reasonably answer particularly the question why Uijtdebroeks opted for Visma instead of Ineos or Lidl-Trek, I myself now would be interested in getting to know the (2024) rider budgets of mentioned teams, and the certain annual payment Uijtdebroeks will receive at Visma, and would have received at, let‘s say, Ineos or Lidl.

Former Sky rider Boswell recently mentioned that more than one rider recently chose Visma over Ineos, earning less money, but enjoying better development perspectives at Visma. Maybe this played a decisive role also in Uijtdebroeks‘s case.

The thing is, when Uijtdebroeks signed his „long-term“ contract at Bora, he probably felt satisfied about agreement on salary. Very likely, this changed quite quickly, afterwards. Hard to judge, without getting to read the contract itself, however.

I think all in all, Uijtdebroeks in recent months probably developed a feeling that Bora wasn’t „good enough“, for him, anymore. This might have led him to negotiate with Visma, among, others, probably…

Clearly he feels his development options are better at Visma, otherwise I really don't see why he wouldn't have opted for Ineos or Trek. Saved him a lot of hassle. The fact that he didn't may suggest he feels he has a quite strong case against Bora.

I listened to the recent Geraint Thomas podcast interview with Sepp Kuss, where he tried to convince him to come to Ineos. I thought, wow this team has really sunk quite low, if they have to beg riders to come to them Apparently Visma is now the team that riders want to be at. Personally if I were Uijtdebroeks I'd have gone to Lidl-Trek, which seems to be the Visma of the future. They have the people and the resources.

 

[CyclistAbi]

I'm not sure that Visma has been damaged in a legally cognizable manner in this scenario. The most I can come up would be reputational damage and perhaps defense costs if Visma is sued by Bora for tortious interference with its contract with Cian. But I can't imagine it comes to that, as the UCI should step in to sort out whether Cian has any right to cycle for Visma next year. If not, then no harm. If the UCI decides Cian can break his contract, then Visma won't have been damaged by agent.

If UCI sides with Cian, alleged bullying proved and that being grounds for contract termination, and not just resulting in some disciplinary actions, then yes you are thinking in the right direction. And possible further legal actions are after to be decided by Bora. Likely even UCI is liable here, for decision.

If UCI will side with Bora, that would mean Visma negotiated with and signed Cian while still under contract with Bora. And i read it on two sources that this would then mean Visma could pay a fine of 500k and Cian 100k. As it wouldn't be hard to prove this rule was broken. This hence isn't allowed.

So Visma in my opinion is rather deeply involved in all this, regarding liability. In some ideal scenario, for them, they could get everything. For free. But usually this is not how life works. So i would be a bit sceptical of that. One side to get it all.

In my opinion compensation will need to be arranged or the transfer won't happen this season.

 

[roundabout]

Seems pretty convenient that former Jumbo is not involved despite a second rider in 5 years breaking a contract to ride for them 1 year earlier risking a UCI fine and compensation to the current team in the process.

It is also convenient to think that former Jumbo are not involved despite Uijtdebroeks trying to leave Bora in a way that is most convenient for the former Jumbo.

I wonder if there have been any other unilateral contract terminations by riders in recent years with ex Jumbo not being the beneficiary?

 

[CyclistAbi]

Talented Cian Uijtdebroeks strengthens Team Visma | Lease a Bike

Cian Uijtdebroeks will join Team Visma | Lease a Bike on 1 January 2024. He will sign a four-year contract until 2027.

www.teamjumbovisma.com

Talented Cian Uijtdebroeks strengthens Team Visma | Lease a Bike
Cian Uijtdebroeks will join Team Visma | Lease a Bike on 1 January 2024. He will sign a four-year contract until 2027.

Reading this then indeed Visma has not yet signed Cian. So from legal point of view it will be interesting to see if they will be fined. That is if UCI sides with Bora. Bottom line Cian is still under contract with Bora and based on Visma hence hasn't got a contract with Visma. Lets see if that changes by the end of the year. Due to contract termination with Bora, alleged misconduct. Or by reaching an agreement with Bora.

Somehow i got that QOS and Visma merger vibe again. Lets see on how this saga ends. I guess it could still end the same.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

If it goes to court place a warrant on their cell phones

Will they change their phones before then, losing all content, Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak style?

 

[CyclistAbi]

Cian Uijtdebroeks' Jumbo-Visma transfer not yet approved by UCI

'If the story of the bullying is true, it is of course worrying' says PCC president Tom Van Damme

www.cyclingnews.com

Well here i read:

Jumbo-Visma, next year known as Visma-Lease a Bike announced they had signed Uijtdebroeks on Saturday, only for Bora-Hansgrohe to claim he is still under contract for 2024.

And UCI states that:

Under UCI rules, a rider can only terminate a contract with a team early and transfer to a rival team with the approval of the UCI's Professional Cycling Council (PCC), which oversees the governance of professional cycling.

Utter mess. So Cian is and isn't signed for Bora and Visma. Jokes aside and as suspected indeed Cian is still signed with Bora. And now UCI is deciding if there are grounds for contract termination or not, and at least until that decision is made, Cian is still signed with Bora.

 

[theyoungest]

Seems pretty convenient that former Jumbo is not involved despite a second rider in 5 years breaking a contract to ride for them 1 year earlier risking a UCI fine and compensation to the current team in the process.

It is also convenient to think that former Jumbo are not involved despite Uijtdebroeks trying to leave Bora in a way that is most convenient for the former Jumbo.

I wonder if there have been any other unilateral contract terminations by riders in recent years with ex Jumbo not being the beneficiary?

Don't act like if Jumbo hadn't signed Van Aert, nobody else would have. He was in negotiations with Lotto as well, for instance. Moreover, they waited for UCI approval before they signed him. It would have been pretty stupid not to, otherwise another team would have. And don't act like you would have then praised them for not signing him

 

[Rackham]

Will they change their phones before then, losing all content, Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak style?

Ironically, calling a teammate bad names behind his back... is still not grounds for contract termination. It's interesting how a narrative can spread like wildfire & lead onlookers down all sorts of rabbit hole conclusions, such as "whatsapp group with mean words = I have a right to break my contract & sign for another team gratis".

There would have to be something more tangible. There's also the small matter of what Bora's riders & staff could say (specifically about Uijtdebroeks).

It will become he says versus they say. Which again, is still not grounds for breaking a contract (it would become common practise, not just in cycling, but in other sports as well, i.e. claim bullying as justification for ending a contract without consent).

I'm very interested to see where this leads because there's some very messy scenarios possible, i.e. scenarios which could send some shockwaves through the sport (regarding contracts & team security in legal terms).

 

[Salvarani]

Ironically, calling a teammate bad names behind his back... is still not grounds for contract termination. It's interesting how a narrative can spread like wildfire & lead onlookers down all sorts of rabbit hole conclusions, such as "whatsapp group with mean words = I have a right to break my contract & sign for another team gratis".

There would have to be something more tangible. There's also the small matter of what Bora's riders & staff could say (specifically about Uijtdebroeks).

It will become he says versus they say. Which again, is still not grounds for breaking a contract (it would become common practise, not just in cycling, but in other sports as well, i.e. claim bullying as justification for ending a contract without consent).

I'm very interested to see where this leads because there's some very messy scenarios possible, i.e. scenarios which could send some shockwaves through the sport (regarding contracts & team security in legal terms).

Gratis? You Scandinavian.

 

[kn0s]

Gratis? You Scandinavian.

It's latin.

 

[roundabout]

Don't act like if Jumbo hadn't signed Van Aert, nobody else would have. He was in negotiations with Lotto as well, for instance. Moreover, they waited for UCI approval before they signed him. It would have been pretty stupid not to, otherwise another team would have. And don't act like you would have then praised them for not signing him

My impression from former Jumbo announcement here (their own web page btw)

Van Aert joins Team Jumbo-Visma from March 2019

From the 1st of March Wout van Aert strengthens the ranks of Team Jumbo-Visma. The cyclecross world champion took a plane to Spain yesterday to join the…

www.teamjumbovisma.com

Is that Van Aert would have signed with them for 2020, but then something happened and former Jumbo got the rider they wanted a year early.

Edit: and it's not just an impression, the agreement to join for 2020 was widely reported.

 

[hrotha]

Please stop using the passive-aggressive atom bomb emoji "" theyoungest I'm begging you

 

[Netserk]

Please stop using the passive-aggressive atom bomb emoji "" theyoungest I'm begging you

We’ll always have Sydney.

 

[Rob5091]

I can not see the UCI backing Bora as Cian does not want to ride for them and it seems Bora are happy to see him go for a price.

 

[Unchained]

In the US we had a movie titled Mean Girls, everything is exactly what you would expect, over the top cruelty and bullying. And often in Hollywood the person being bullied often gets some kind of revenge or reward for taking the high ground and not resorting to a back and forth of ugly barbs and insults.
I have an opinion sure, but I also think the news from Cycling News article from the team director, which summarized says management is completely caught off guard and surprised. And if it was happening, they were unaware. My original thought that it's sounds like immaturity is reinforced a bit if Cian never went to his boss with the problem and also didn't respect the organization enough even to try and solve it.
Gotta wonder what part Roglic plays in all this if any, and how Uijtdebroeks suiting up for Bora is so so important and of significant tactical importance. Good rider sure, Sepp Kuss is a good rider, but in my opinion neither are make or break teammates. Sort of the argument about publicly breaking the contract and all that surrounds it are more significant than Cian's tested skill set..
I hope everyone gets what they want.. but hopefully this young rider realizes that when you go for all or nothing, go for broke.. It's sometimes the outcome. And if he felt bullied before.. Yikes!! look out

 

[Salvarani]

It's latin.

We use that word as well, but I guess thats where it comes from. It is a borrowed word. You learn something new every day.

 

[Faserr]

The cycling podcast (Daniel Friebe) did an Interview with Aldag at the training camp of Bora. Part of the Interview is about the Uijdtebroeks case.
They are pretty annoyed at the moment because they have planned everything (race shedule, appointments, bike order). He says Uijtdebroeks is the guy who wants to do everything 100% right and he is only satisfied if he understands the things 100%. He is the guy who is the prototype of new generation. He perhaps annoys some of the 30 year old riders with that, because he shows them whats possible. Nevertheless he is a bit over the top. Chrono de Naton wasn't at the shedule of Bora. Bora agreed to let him race but they couldn't give him all the support. They talked about it before the race, for example what happens with a puncture, and let him race. So Aldag was clearly annoyed about the comments after the race because it looks like Bora preparses every race badly.
At the vuelta Uijtdebroeks was one of the leader. He got Jonas Koch who looked at thim 100% and Vlasov got Denz. He says its s lot of stress for a young rider like in his first grand tours Uijtdebroeks because he wants everything 100% perfect.

Concening the transfer he said that the courts would decide. But he isn't part of the deal making. It will be an important descision for the cycling world and future transfer.
Jumbo Visma has a lot of more money. They sent 12 riders to altitude Camp with 8 staff while Bora can only afford 8 riders and 3 staff. He also said that they do a lot of things right with all the money.
Roglic won't change much with his trainer.

 

[Berniece]

I changed my view on how much Visma-LAB should be paying. They should pay 1M. If INEOS and LIDL-Trek were willing to put that money on the table, then that's the market value.

 

[Rackham]

Gratis? You Scandinavian.

It was said in a Deadwood episode, i.e. the HBO show. I've been using it ever since. Good series FYI, very quotable.

And no, I'm not Scandinavian.

I can not see the UCI backing Bora as Cian does not want to ride for them and it seems Bora are happy to see him go for a price.

The UCI will back Bora. Jumbo will be forced to pay a price... or renege on the deal.

I can't see any other scenario tbh. It seems unlikely they'd greenlight a deal which would have huge ramifications on the validity of all contracts going forwards. It would set a precedent where riders could just 'leave' whenever they feel that way inclined (& also hold their current team to ransom for special status, races & increased pay).

I reckon the UCI will do what the UCI always does which is look for the easiest option. That option is to tell Jumbo to pay Bora what they want.

 

[Boes]

I think this is easy to figure out.

1. Bora valued Vlasov above him in last year's Vuelta (If not the management then at least his teammates). With Roglic joining he would be forced down another step in the team hierarchy.
2. He's fun in interviews, but let's be honoust, he has a bit of a dorky vibe. This in combination with the macho world that is cycling and probably Vlasov that saw him as a potential leader in the team (thus his own competition) leads me to believe he wasn't the most popular guy in the team.
3. This might have lead to some bullying and perhaps a whatsapp group where he wasn't invited. It happens in non sporting world, so it sure as hells happens in cycling to.
4. Because Roglic would become the absolute nr 1 and Vlasov presumably nr 2, Cian was not the main focus in both scedule, dom's, TT testing, food & nurturing and so on.
5. The conclusion for Cian was, it's better to get out of here.
6. Via managers Ineos & Lidl outbid each other to pay 1 million EUR severance fee for Cian, while he has a contact of 1 year left with 100k a year.
7. Cian doesn't want to join Ineos or Lidl but only wants to join Visma. Visma only wants to pay the legal severance fee + small addition which comes down the wage of the rest of his contract thus 100k + a few 10k's of bonus.
8. Bora wants the 1 million. Visma wants to pay 120k.
9. Cian got nervous because preseaso is starting. Thus his management forced the move using all the above.

The only good outcome would be if Bora and Visma come to some sort of understanding. 1 million is an idiotic price for a 20 year old rider with a wage of 100k and 1 year contract left. THIS IS NOT FOOTBALL.

Bora is being greedy, Visma is being a bully and for Cian this could lead to a lost year.
No winners in this story thanks to manager overselling riders.

 

[Peter von]

Riis did exactly that didn’t he!?

He didn't race against Jack&Jones, but he might have had a brief stint under contract at Telekom while also co-owner of the team in 2000. Wiki doesn't specify the dates of retirement and when he became a part owner.

One could argue that these days Froomey is more participating than racing.

 

[AmRacer]

I think this is easy to figure out.

1. Bora valued Vlasov above him in last year's Vuelta (If not the management then at least his teammates). With Roglic joining he would be forced down another step in the team hierarchy.
2. He's fun in interviews, but let's be honoust, he has a bit of a dorky vibe. This in combination with the macho world that is cycling and probably Vlasov that saw him as a potential leader in the team (thus his own competition) leads me to believe he wasn't the most popular guy in the team.
3. This might have lead to some bullying and perhaps a whatsapp group where he wasn't invited. It happens in non sporting world, so it sure as hells happens in cycling to.
4. Because Roglic would become the absolute nr 1 and Vlasov presumably nr 2, Cian was not the main focus in both scedule, dom's, TT testing, food & nurturing and so on.
5. The conclusion for Cian was, it's better to get out of here.
6. Via managers Ineos & Lidl outbid each other to pay 1 million EUR severance fee for Cian, while he has a contact of 1 year left with 100k a year.
7. Cian doesn't want to join Ineos or Lidl but only wants to join Visma. Visma only wants to pay the legal severance fee + small addition which comes down the wage of the rest of his contract thus 100k + a few 10k's of bonus.
8. Bora wants the 1 million. Visma wants to pay 120k.
9. Cian got nervous because preseaso is starting. Thus his management forced the move using all the above.

The only good outcome would be if Bora and Visma come to some sort of understanding. 1 million is an idiotic price for a 20 year old rider with a wage of 100k and 1 year contract left. THIS IS NOT FOOTBALL.

Bora is being greedy, Visma is being a bully and for Cian this could lead to a lost year.
No winners in this story thanks to manager overselling riders.

See number 6. The maket has spoken.