Teams & Riders Cian Uijtdebroeks - From the wetlands to the top of cycling

[Armchair Cyclist]

I appreciate the work of the mods here but I not would claim any meaningful connection with them, nor do I imagine that they would with me, whereby we would describe each other as "internet friends".

I'm not sure why you want the dialogue shared, but as you requested it:

Me:
In the Uijtdebroeks thread, you posted " It is absolutely amazing how many people that don't know *** think they know everything. Get a life. " The two posts immediately above this were from me,so I sought to clarify whom you were responding to: if it was me, I would have wanted an explanation as to what I out that was unreasonable. But you responded just with a laughing emoji.
So I ask again, directed at whom?

MJ:
There are multiple people on this forum and this thread in particular who take the "you are wrong, until you change MY OPINION" approach to a discussion. It's pretty obnoxious.

Me:
So you are willing to speak crassly about people, without letting the people concerned know that it is them that you refer to. I'm not sure how that persuades anyone of your opinion or moves the debate forward.
You put up that post following two of my comments: did you mean me or not?

MJ:
Go back and read the early pages of this discussion and your persistent lecturing of the "relevant" rules that would decide the case as you were certain that it would, and answer your own question as if you were one of the many I refer to. Bullying me for an answer in PM's is a *** joke.

Me:
So do you believe that V|Lab acted in accordance with the cited rule or not?
Do you believe that at the time of the transfer first being announced that there was an agreement between both teams? And that it had UCI approval?
Is it your contention that payment of a compensation fee to the previous contract holder is the same thing as paying a fine to the UCI for infringement of transfer rules?
Can you actually cite a single post in the thread where I made a material error?

MJ:
Stop sending me PM's. I don't want to put anyone on ignore.

I had subsequently sent a message before I saw a PM from Red Rick, which I deleted out of respect for RR once I saw it. Incidentally, I was not "told to stop" as you claim: RR wrote to me "I still suggest that if you have an argument with that person you keep it out of private chats."

I really don't want to de-rail the thread further: if anyone believes that I have acted unreasonably, by all means send me a PM and we can have a civil discussion about it.

 

[ManicJack]

I appreciate the work of the mods here but I not would claim any meaningful connection with them, nor do I imagine that they would with me, whereby we would describe each other as "internet friends".

I'm not sure why you want the dialogue shared, but as you requested it:


I had subsequently sent a message before I saw a PM from Red Rick, which I deleted out of respect for RR once I saw it. Incidentally, I was not "told to stop" as you claim: RR wrote to me "I still suggest that if you have an argument with that person you keep it out of private chats."

I really don't want to de-rail the thread further: if anyone believes that I have acted unreasonably, by all means send me a PM and we can have a civil discussion about it.

You forgot a couple of the PM's 🤡. You may have deleted them on your end, but they are still in my inbox.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

OK, for the sake of completeness and since you seem to think your prestige here will rise from making it public:

MJ:
🥱. Don't ever PM me again.

Me:
You do not have the right to tell me what to do or not do.

I have answered your request: Do you intend answering the questions I put to you? (PM would do, for reasons I have already mentioned)

 

[ManicJack]

OK, for the sake of completeness and since you seem to think your prestige here will rise from making it public:

That's rich 🤡

 

[ManicJack]

Incidentally, I was not "told to stop" as you claim: RR wrote to me "I still suggest that if you have an argument with that person you keep it out of private chats."

That's funny I was told by an anonymous mod that you were told to not PM me and if you did, to not respond and report it. Maybe they can weigh in on the two different stories. I'll post the response I received if you do.

 

[scribers]

I feel like Cian should open up like this toward his mates who were bullying him. It could have saved us all a lot of postings about it.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Well this is some petty ***

 

[Netserk]

So do you believe that V|Lab acted in accordance with the cited rule or not?
Do you believe that at the time of the transfer first being announced that there was an agreement between both teams? And that it had UCI approval?
Is it your contention that payment of a compensation fee to the previous contract holder is the same thing as paying a fine to the UCI for infringement of transfer rules?
Can you actually cite a single post in the thread where I made a material error?

Correct and most relevant questions.

 

[hrotha]

Man people ITT sure have weird ideas about what constitutes bullying

 

[Netserk]

Man people ITT sure have weird ideas about what constitutes bullying

That's the comment a bully would make.

 

[hrotha]

That's the comment a bully would make.

Give me your lunch money

 

[scribers]

RIP ManicJack. We hardly knew ye

 

[SHAD0W93]

RIP ManicJack. We hardly knew ye

Should have seen the Tour posts.

 

[scribers]

I did miss it. So many outlets and so little time! I otherwise thoroughly enjoyed the race

 

[Colonel]

That's funny. So it was ok for Bora to poach Roglic, who had a valid contract, but not Visma with Cian? The bias in this thread is hilarious.

He was not poached
It was clear knowledge he wanted out of Visma
Made is known he was available
3 Teams with this made contact - Trek, Ineos, Bora
He chose Bora
3 parties were in agreement

Thats not poaching

This is poaching:
to appropriate (something) as one's own. : to attract (someone, such as an employee or customer) away from a competitor.

English is my 1st language as reference

 

[SHAD0W93]

He was not poached
It was clear knowledge he wanted out of Visma
Made is known he was available
3 Teams with this made contact - Trek, Ineos, Bora
He chose Bora
3 parties were in agreement

Thats not poaching

This is poaching:
to appropriate (something) as one's own. : to attract (someone, such as an employee or customer) away from a competitor.

English is my 1st language as reference

It wasn’t clear when he was approached by Bora. Roglic hadn’t voiced at all about wanting to leave to the public (most likely in private to friends and family he said he wanted to leave) yet Bora came knocking even though they knew Roglic had a contract.

How Bora-Hansgrohe Snatched Away Primož Roglič: 'We Could Tell He Was Not Really Happy'

The story behind the biggest coup of the transfer season: 'If you add a zero to the number, it is not enough.'

velo.outsideonline.com

 

[theyoungest]

He was not poached
It was clear knowledge he wanted out of Visma
Made is known he was available
3 Teams with this made contact - Trek, Ineos, Bora
He chose Bora
3 parties were in agreement

Thats not poaching

This is poaching:
to appropriate (something) as one's own. : to attract (someone, such as an employee or customer) away from a competitor.

English is my 1st language as reference

With Roglic we actually know that he was poached, Ralf Denk even proudly talks about it (of course not using that word, but what he described was poaching). With Uijtdebroeks we actually have no idea. It was clear Jumbo were interested in him, but whether they actively tried to sign him before December 1st, there's no proof of that at all. But apparently in public opinion it's completely the other way around. That's bias.

 

[Elos Anjos]

"What is bullying? Jokes are just made among men" - Wilco Kelderman plays down Cian Uijtdebroeks bullying rumours

Wilco Kelderman and Cian Uijtdebroeks have both made the move from BORA - hansgrohe to Team Visma | Lease a Bike in recent seasons, although Uijtdebroeks' move caused a lot more controversy. “I experi...

cyclinguptodate.com

 

[RedheadDane]

"What is bullying? Jokes are just made among men" - Wilco Kelderman plays down Cian Uijtdebroeks bullying rumours

Wilco Kelderman and Cian Uijtdebroeks have both made the move from BORA - hansgrohe to Team Visma | Lease a Bike in recent seasons, although Uijtdebroeks' move caused a lot more controversy. “I experi...

cyclinguptodate.com

But he also acknowledges that for an young kid, the internal language between a bunch of guys in their 30s can seem a bit overwhelming, even if bullying wasn't intended.

 

[theyoungest]

But he also acknowledges that for an young kid, the internal language between a bunch of guys in their 30s can seem a bit overwhelming, even if bullying wasn't intended.

Cyclinguptodate has just run a Wielerflits article through Google translate, and that article already didn't really capture what Kelderman was saying in the podcast. I understand the newfound Bora fans will eagerly jump upon it as "proof" that there was no bullying, but actually Kelderman says nothing of the kind. He simply doesn't know.

It was talked about in the context of young riders these days, what they already know that Kelderman didn't when he was younger. And he used Uijtdebroeks as an example, who arrived at Bora knowing more about training and nutrition than the people at Bora themselves knew. And how this may have irritated some of the old guard. Kelderman says Bora is a bit of an old boys' team, when he came there from DSM he was also a bit surprised by the rather oldfashioned atmosphere.

 

[AmRacer]

With Roglic we actually know that he was poached, Ralf Denk even proudly talks about it (of course not using that word, but what he described was poaching). With Uijtdebroeks we actually have no idea. It was clear Jumbo were interested in him, but whether they actively tried to sign him before December 1st, there's no proof of that at all. But apparently in public opinion it's completely the other way around. That's bias.

You are showing your bias. Two other teams were willing to pay Bora € 1 million for Cian.
And Rogla wasn't happy with JV, he had to switch team.

 

[theyoungest]

You are showing your bias. Two other teams were willing to pay Bora € 1 million for Cian.
And Rogla wasn't happy with JV, he had to switch team.

How does any of this contradict what I was saying?

 

[RedheadDane]

I understand the newfound Bora fans will eagerly jump upon it as "proof" that there was no bullying, but actually Kelderman says nothing of the kind. He simply doesn't know.

That's basically what I'm talking about... he (Kelderman) doesn't think it was intended as bullying - and I would sure hope that most adults don't go around intentionally bullying teenagers - but he understands why it might feel as such for Uijtdebroeks.
I'm no more, nor less, a Bora fan than before.

You are showing your bias. Two other teams were willing to pay Bora € 1 million for Cian.
And Rogla wasn't happy with JV, he had to switch team.

Uitjdebroeks wasn't happy with Bora... so, he also had to switch team. And the fact that there might have been other teams who were willing to pay more doesn't really matter; I'd say it's safe to assume that he didn't want to join either of those teams, because, well, he didn't...

 

[theyoungest]

That's basically what I'm talking about... he (Kelderman) doesn't think it was intended as bullying - and I would sure hope that most adults don't go around intentionally bullying teenagers - but he understands why it might feel as such for Uijtdebroeks.
I'm no more, nor less, a Bora fan than before.

He was trying to explain what may have been going on, but since he wasn't on that team anymore, he doesn't really know. I think he'd been better off just saying nothing, because the nuance usually gets taken away and, like has happened now, the headline becomes "Kelderman plays down bullying at Bora".

Uitjdebroeks wasn't happy with Bora... so, he also had to switch team. And the fact that there might have been other teams who were willing to pay more doesn't really matter; I'd say it's safe to assume that he didn't want to join either of those teams, because, well, he didn't...

There's quite a bit of hypocrisy, imagine if Uijtdebroeks had been approached by Plugge during the Vuelta... but the dynamic of David Bora against Goliath Jumbo has been established, and it's difficult to eliminate.

 

[Elos Anjos]

He was trying to explain what may have been going on, but since he wasn't on that team anymore, he doesn't really know. I think he'd been better off just saying nothing, because the nuance usually gets taken away and, like has happened now, the headline becomes "Kelderman plays down bullying at Bora".


There's quite a bit of hypocrisy, imagine if Uijtdebroeks had been approached by Plugge during the Vuelta... but the dynamic of David Bora against Goliath Jumbo has been established, and it's difficult to eliminate.

Just for the record, are you really comparing the vagueness of a young brat without any victory in WT stating that he was "bullied" and the objective reasons for a Giro and Vuelta winner being frustrated with his status at the team that he alone raised from the pit?