Teams & Riders Cian Uijtdebroeks - From the wetlands to the top of cycling

[Netserk]

It’s untrue that two different standards are used to judge the two cases. The one same standard is whether or not an agreement has been reached by all three parties before any announcement of a deal.

 

[RedheadDane]

He was trying to explain what may have been going on, but since he wasn't on that team anymore, he doesn't really know. I think he'd been better off just saying nothing, because the nuance usually gets taken away and, like has happened now, the headline becomes "Kelderman plays down bullying at Bora".

But he specifically doesn't - at least to me - come across as being dismissive towards Uitjdebroeks' feelings about the whole thing. And the fact that he refers to Uijtebroeks as "an 18-year-old" kinda gives me the impression that he's specifically talking about back when he was still on the team (even though, technically, Uijtdebroeks turned 19 right at the beginning of last year.)

Just for the record, are you really comparing the vagueness of a young brat without any victory in WT stating that he was "bullied" and the objective reasons for a Giro and Vuelta winner being frustrated with his status at the team that he alone raised from the pit?

Not having WT wins doesn't mean your feelings shouldn't be taken into consideration.

 

[theyoungest]

Not having WT wins doesn't mean your feelings shouldn't be taken into consideration.

I don't even need to make my point anymore, the Roglic/Bora fans are making it themselves There is no hypocrisy or bias, the great Roglic just gets to leave whenever he wants and the spoiled brat Uijtdebroeks doesn't.

It’s untrue that two different standards are used to judge the two cases. The one same standard is whether or not an agreement has been reached by all three parties before any announcement of a deal.

This discussion was about poaching, and it's so blatantly clear that Roglic in fact was poached. Ralf Denk even proudly admits it! That's the double standard. That Jumbo consequently cooperated because they realized there was no keeping him doesn't matter in this regard.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

This discussion was about poaching, and it's so blatantly clear that Roglic in fact was poached. Ralf Denk even proudly admits it!

I don't recall this: do you have the link?

 

[CyclistAbi]

Reading the rules, articles i posted earlier in this thread, it's OK to start poaching (talks) the rider before the contract termination, as long as current paying agent is aware and is OK with it. So comparing this two cases, we don't know. Still, Roglič made all the necessary arrangements and all sides agreed. With Cian, that was not the case. At best two, out of three, sides agreed. Until adults took over and in my opinion resolved this mess elegantly. So poaching really isn't the main issue here. It's on how it was done.

P.S. So Roglič here basically was a mentor, following his lead the mess was resolved. Considering Jonas admits he owes much to Rogla ... There must be something there. Rogla has a good track record when it comes to mentorship.

 

[hrotha]

I'm going to add 'poaching' to my list of words I might need people to define because we're clearly not on the same page here

⭐⭐️Words I might need people to define⭐⭐
׺°”˜`”°º× вy ĤŘÕÞĂ ×º°”˜`”°º×

1. Balanced Route
2. Bullying
3. Poaching​

 

[theyoungest]

I don't recall this: do you have the link?

From a few posts above: https://velo.outsideonline.com/road...roglic-we-could-tell-he-was-not-really-happy/

I'm going to add 'poaching' to my list of words I might need people to define because we're clearly not on the same page here

⭐⭐️Words I might need people to define⭐⭐
׺°”˜`”°º× вy ĤŘÕÞĂ ×º°”˜`”°º×

1. Balanced Route
2. Bullying
3. Poaching​

Also from a few posts above:

This is poaching:
to appropriate (something) as one's own. : to attract (someone, such as an employee or customer) away from a competitor.

Now if the latter isn't what Bora did, I don't know what is.

 

[AmRacer]

I don't know

Yes, we know.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Thanks for providing that.
From that article:

Jumbo-Visma gave the green light on Roglič’s departure, and the deal was signed less than two weeks ago.

And that seems to be the key difference. Jumbo- agreed before Bora took any public action. We don't know the detail of any phone calls that might have taken place, and it may be that they constituted an offer before JV had given permission, so there might have been a breach of 2.15 in that case: we don't know, but there seems to have been no accusation that things were done improperly (again, if there is a revelation that I have missed, please point it out).

In the Uijtdebroeks case, there was a public announcement before any agreement between the teams, and this evidently was done before UCI clearance.

There might or might not be other differences in the facts of the two situations: one was conducted in discretion, the other through social media, so we know more about one than the other If there were breaches of the rules in the Roglic case, they should be acted upon. Be that as it may, it has no bearing on whether the UCI should be applying the rules in this case, rather than simply saying "ah well, they shook hands and agreed in the end, so we'll ignore anything that happened before."

Restitution is not the same thing as application of laws.

 

[CyclistAbi]

So all the Cian fans are now not Bora fans any more?

 

[RedheadDane]

So all the Cian fans are now not Bora fans any more?

I became an Uijtdebroeks fan after he surprisingly chipper interview about his sadle sore during the Vuelta.
My opinions about Bora hasn't changed.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Well, my opinions about Bora, that did change considerably.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

It wasn’t clear when he was approached by Bora. Roglic hadn’t voiced at all about wanting to leave to the public (most likely in private to friends and family he said he wanted to leave) yet Bora came knocking even though they knew Roglic had a contract.

They are quite entitled to come knocking, so long as they knocked on J-V's door first: we don't know the order of events, and J-V have not said that Bora acted improperly.

I wouldn't consider myself among Roglic's family and friends, but it was blatantly obvious to me that he wasn't happy with the pecking order at J-V during the Vuelta. If I, and probably every single person taking an interest in that race, could see that, it would seem extraordinary that Bora were not able to do so.

 

[Froome]

Well, my opinions about Bora, that did change considerably.

We all know that since Bora signed roglic, @CyclistAbi bought some Bora brand appliances for his kitchen.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

We all know that since Bora signed roglic, @CyclistAbi bought some Bora brand appliances for his kitchen.

Now also enjoying a nice hansgrohe shower in the mornings, installation started in October

 

[pastronef]

on the other hand, the moment Roglic left Jumbo, I bought a nice Slovenian flag

 

[Hugh Januss]

It’s untrue that two different standards are used to judge the two cases. The one same standard is whether or not an agreement has been reached by all three parties before any announcement of a deal.

^This! Bullied Poached Whatever. We would not be going on about this if Visma had waited until all involved parties were in agreement to make an announcement. Like Bora did with Roglic. It's really not a difficult concept to grasp.

 

[theyoungest]

They are quite entitled to come knocking, so long as they knocked on J-V's door first: we don't know the order of events, and J-V have not said that Bora acted improperly.

Okay. So because Jumbo didn't act like the world came tumbling down, there's no problem. Of course Denk didn't first ask Jumbo, halfway through the Vuelta they wouldn't have said "sure, approach our leader for a contract for next year".

Mind you, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with what he did. In his position I would have done the same. But the boundless hypocrisy of blaming Jumbo for things that Bora actually did quite blatantly, I find quite ridiculous.

^This! Bullied Poached Whatever. We would not be going on about this if Visma had waited until all involved parties were in agreement to make an announcement. Like Bora did with Roglic. It's really not a difficult concept to grasp.

You think they did this just for the heck of it? I'm sure this wasn't their preferred mode of conduct.

 

[Sciatic]

We all know that since Bora signed roglic, @CyclistAbi bought some Bora brand appliances for his kitchen.

I can never get out of my head the BORA appliance commercial (which sometimes featured Sagan) that used to air a gazillion times a year during French Eurosport cycling coverage: “BORA: efficace et silencieux”

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Okay. So because Jumbo didn't act like the world came tumbling down, there's no problem.

No, not remotely what I think, as I made very clear in my post just above that: "We don't know the detail of any phone calls that might have taken place, and it may be that they constituted an offer before JV had given permission, so there might have been a breach of 2.15 in that case"

Of course Denk didn't first ask Jumbo, halfway through the Vuelta they wouldn't have said "sure, approach our leader for a contract for next year".

I doubt it was during the Vuelta, but I do believe that Bora at some point told J-V that they would be interested in signing Roglic. I would be intrigued to hear how you think they agreed a compensation fee without discussion. Neither you nor I know whether that was before or after a contract was discussed with Roglic.

Mind you, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with what he did. In his position I would have done the same. But the boundless hypocrisy of blaming Jumbo for things that Bora actually did quite blatantly, I find quite ridiculous.

No, we don't know that. That is an accusation on your part that, I would suggest, you have no evidence for at all. Maybe it did happen, maybe they did it properly, as we assume is the case on any other in-contract-period-transfer.

I'm not sure why you think that what might or might not have happened in relation to the transfer of Roglic has any pertinence here. This is the thread about Uijtdebroeks. In relation to this transfer, do you believe that the rules were properly followed or not? If you conclude that the rules were not followed (and I would be interested to see your interpretation of the rules if you think they were), then do you think that J-V should be held accountable for that breach or not?

 

[roundabout]

But the boundless hypocrisy of blaming Jumbo for things that Bora actually did quite blatantly, I find quite ridiculous.

Please provide examples of people blaming Jumbo for signing Uijtdebroeks once an agreement was reached between him, Bora and Jumbo.

 

[scribers]

Technically, they would be to blame at that point.

 

[Hugh Januss]

You think they did this just for the heck of it? I'm sure this wasn't their preferred mode of conduct.

So you're saying Visma really didn't want to announce that they were signing Kian before there was a mutual agreement but Bora forced their hand by demanding compensation at the market rate?

 

[Ilmaestro99]

So you're saying Visma really didn't want to announce that they were signing Kian before there was a mutual agreement but Bora forced their hand by demanding compensation at the market rate?

I don't have the intelligence or attention spans for complex business discussions like this. Can't wait until I can start calling WVA a belge pozzato and unrealistically hyping Fausto again. Then I can properly participate in the forum

 

[rallybanana]

Now also enjoying a nice hansgrohe shower in the mornings, installation started in October

Purchased from a second-hand hansgrohe shower dealer named Van der Poel