Cipollini Blood Transfusions 2002

[Escarabajo]

I suspect it works something like this.

...

Thanks. Just what I thought. Slightly complicated.

 

[Hawkwood]

Does anyone remember that case a hotel maid brought against Cipollini? She claimed that she might have got infected after clearing used syringes from his hotel room. It caused a bit of a stir at the time.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

Everybody STOP.

He is a vampire. Case closed.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Perhaps I am just paranoid but I find it very coincidal one day we have a story on Cancellara who supposedly was outed by riders of Rock Racing back in 2008 and the next day big Mario is on the spot?

Pro Cycling is a funny world.

Who is next?

 

[DirtyWorks]

Doubting Cipo's use of blood bags because some research shows it does not work that well is a bad practice.

I would be surprised if Cipollini had been doing this, as it has been known for a long time that it does not work as an effective doping method.

I think you are missing some important information. That has never stopped anyone from trying. See Chris Carmichael's "extract of cortisone."

Bottom line is that that once extracted the cells in storage often die off at a faster rate than the body can generate new ones. I would also have thought that the stress on the body caused by having to reabsorb lots of dead blood cells would not do much for one's performance. For example:



It would have thought it more likely that he was using more frequent, but smaller, transfusions using methods similar to those used by Armstrong et al.

Define "do much." The blood that works in a re-infusion is a substantial advantage. On top of that, if you are one of 5 guys in a peloton re-infusing, then the field just got a whole lot smaller.

Based on some other seemingly honest interviews, it seems like it's an inexact science anyway. Some athletes respond better than others, so it is a matter of finding the combination that works. Maybe it was blood bags for Cipo. Maybe it was blood bags plus some other non-positive cocktail.

The point is, we don't know much at all, so discarding information now is not good. Still, I appreciate the reference to some science on the matter.

 

[Robert21]

Doubting Cipo's use of blood bags because some research shows it does not work that well is a bad practice.

I never said that I 'doubted' that Cipollini used blood doping. I merely suggested that he probably used the same techniques as adopted by other riders, such as Armstrong, and said that the seemingly large number of bags used could simply be due to him using smaller, but more frequent, transfusions.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I never said that I 'doubted' that Cipollini used blood doping. I merely suggested that he probably used the same techniques as adopted by other riders, such as Armstrong, and said that the seemingly large number of bags used could simply be due to him using smaller, but more frequent, transfusions.

as it has been known for a long time that it does not work as an effective doping method. Bottom line is that that once extracted the cells in storage often die off at a faster rate than the body can generate new ones.

The use of the phrases "has been known for a long time" and "bottom line" suggest some sort of confidence in the matter. I was responding to the use of those phrases.

Again, I appreciate referencing some research on the matter. We don't have enough of it posted!

 

[Robert21]

as it has been known for a long time that it does not work as an effective doping method. Bottom line is that that once extracted the cells in storage often die off at a faster rate than the body can generate new ones.

The use of the phrases "has been known for a long time" and "bottom line" suggest some sort of confidence in the matter. I was responding to the use of those phrases.

Again, I appreciate referencing some research on the matter. We don't have enough of it posted!

But I was referring specifically to the claim that one can blood-dope effectively merely by withdrawing blood and re-infusing it a short time later, especially without resort to low temperate storage and other blood preservation techniques. I had thought that my post had made this pretty clear.

Anyhow, here is a link to the paper I referred to:

bjsm.bmj.com/content/23/2/84.full.pdf

 

[spalco]

I never said that I 'doubted' that Cipollini used blood doping. I merely suggested that he probably used the same techniques as adopted by other riders, such as Armstrong, and said that the seemingly large number of bags used could simply be due to him using smaller, but more frequent, transfusions.

What exactly was Armstrong's method?

 

[skippy]

This item landed in my email today :

http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/blog...s.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email

seems the bags are 250ml

 

[Robert21]

What exactly was Armstrong's method?

Look up the accounts of Hamilton and Landis.

 

[Robert21]

This item landed in my email today :

http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/blog...s.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email

seems the bags are 250ml

Just as I suspected, much smaller than the '800 ml of packed cells' used by USP / Disco, even if the storage and treatment of the blood was in all probability pretty much the same.

 

[ElChingon]

Man some of you still don't get the big picture. Fuentes was in it for the "MONEY!". If a rider won a race or more he could of cared less, sure more winners equated to more customers but just look at what they did with Mancebo, placebo's and just jacked him around so Mancebo would do what? Pay him time and time again, not to guarantee results. Again, as most of you know and have read and most likely acknowledged half or even more than half of this doping scheme involved the riders THINKING they were better than the other riders and all the programs had the condition that they must train and train hard for the doping to work (even if it didn't or there wasn't any real doping). The psychological angle was key as well. Most of these riders most likely wanted their hard earned doping fee's to be validated so they worked extra hard as in training to win races, then with the added mental angle of thinking they were better they'd get some results. Sure some didn't but how easy was it for Fuentes to blame training or say the customer needed something else instead and bam another doping session, even at half the fee Fuentes was ringing the cash register and it was indeed cash or direct back transfers.

Who cares if the got Cipo to do some odd ball doping/blood sessions over the year, maybe it worked, maybe it didn't (as in actually aiding his body to be better than rider X), but having the whole Italian team supporting him and one American (bonus points for those who know who that American rider was) was also as good as the doping he got to win Worlds.

In the end, if this association with the OP name Maria/Bavoroti/CP is validated Cipo will get convicted, whether it helped or was the best or known method, pointless.

 

[Elagabalus]

I would be surprised if Cipollini had been doing this, as it has been known for a long time that it does not work as an effective doping method. Bottom line is that that once extracted the cells in storage often die off at a faster rate than the body can generate new ones. I would also have thought that the stress on the body caused by having to reabsorb lots of dead blood cells would not do much for one's performance. For example:



It would have thought it more likely that he was using more frequent, but smaller, transfusions using methods similar to those used by Armstrong et al.

This was Tyler's and Fuentes method and presumedly Cipo's too. I noticed that article is from 1989. I have a sports medicine book from that same era and says the same thing about blood doping.

But it's a revolving door.

Tyler goes to Fuentes. He takes out one BB
Tyler recoups.
Tyler goes back to Fuentes. Fuentes now takes 2 BB's and after that re-infuses the old BB from the previous appointment. And so it goes ...

That way, by the time of the Tour, Tyler has fresh blood in his BB's AND has fully recuperated from his blood donations.

This is from memory since Tyler's book is back at the library.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Move over Big Tex, there's a new Saint in town: Cardiac Jesus:

"I hope me revealing my heart problems can help others."