Cobbles in le Tour

[rhubroma]

Man, I can see that I've come up against the mob here.

Very well then. Let's see if I can make myself any more reasonable.

Froome having a fractured wrist yesterday is news to me. Well if that were the case, then it seems odd that he wasn't appropriately wrapped up for the occassion, or am I wrong about that? Seriously, because he didn't seem to be.

On Mr. Tibbs point about how the narrative "is" or "is not" supposed to go, mine really had nothing to do with that. I was just considering how cycling, today, is different from the cycling of 30 years back, when throwing Roubaix cobbles into the race was not controversial. The risks seem to me to outweigh the positive effect such a course can have on the race overall.

On Nibali needing a 3 minute advantage on Contador, that is not a given. In today's cycling, unless a really in form rider cracks, and Nibali is certainly on form, it's really hard to take large chuncks of time out of one's rivals.

As far as beating Froome goes, after his dominace last year and Contador's rebound this year (and now a marvelous Nibali), I was truely looking forward to a battle royale in the mountains between all of them. Alas that is not to be and, for me at least, this Tour has lost some of its fasination as a result.

A great battle today indeed, though I think for the whole war not fortuitous for these reasons.

 

[deValtos]

So your whole issue is that Froome is out? Really has nothing to do with cobbles, it's Froome.

Froome is out because he can't handle either his bike, or the pressure. Period. Nothing to do with cobbles or not.

He fell down, went boom, on a flat paved road.

TBH having an injured wrist makes it somewhat hard to control your bike at these speeds in crappy conditions, I know Froome's bike handling isn't at the top of the pack but he's honnestly not that bad at handling/descending.

 

[Fight.The.Power]

Man, I can see that I've come up against the mob here.

Very well then. Let's see if I can make myself any more reasonable.

Froome having a fractured wrist yesterday is news to me. Well if that were the case, then it seems odd that he wasn't appropriately wrapped up for the occassion, or am I wrong about that? Seriously, because he didn't seem to be.

On Mr. Tibbs point about how the narrative "is" or "is not" supposed to go, mine really had nothing to do with that. I was just considering how cycling, today, is different from the cycling of 30 years back, when throwing Roubaix cobbles into the race was not controversial. The risks seem to me to outweigh the positive effect such a course can have on the race overall.

On Nibali needing a 3 minute advantage on Contador, that is not a given. In today's cycling, unless a really in form rider cracks, and Nibali is certainly on form, it's really hard to take large chuncks of time out of one's rivals.

As far as beating Froome goes, after his dominace last year and Contador's rebound this year (and now a marvelous Nibali), I was truely looking forward to a battle royale in the mountains between all of them. Alas that is not to be and, for me at least, this Tour has lost some of its fasination as a result.

A great battle today indeed, though I think for the whole war not fortuitous for these reasons.

It is entirely possible you have come against the mob.

It is also possible that you are just WRONG.

 

[red_flanders]

Seriously, **** the cobbles, I never want to see them again in a Grand Tour. We have 1 rider 2 minutes in front of all the other GC contenders because he was lucky enough to be in the front part of the peloton as they hit the cobbles. Two guys were with him but crashed. Hate it.

No one was lucky to be at the front today. Today, it was earned.

 

[cineteq]

Froome is out because he can't handle either his bike, or the pressure. Period. Nothing to do with cobbles or not.

+1 He can't handle the pressure, we saw this coming.

 

[rhubroma]

It is entirely possible you have come against the mob.

It is also possible that you are just WRONG.

Right or wrong is not the issue, but the rational behind one's preferences. While the mob is usually not credited for its deep reflections.

So, no, it's not possible that I'm WRONG, while it is entirely possible that you simply haven't thought it through carefully.

 

[Fight.The.Power]

Chris Froome‏@chrisfroome·52 mins
Devastated to have to withdraw from this years TDF. Injured wrist and tough conditions made controlling my bike near to impossible.

 

[Fight.The.Power]

Right or wrong is not the issue, but the rational behind one's preferences. While the mob is usually not credited for its deep reflections.

So, no, it's not possible that I'm WRONG, while it is entirely possible that you simply haven't thought it through carefully.

I think you have your head somewhere in 17th Century Europe.

We are not the mob and your assertions that we are, are derogatory at best.

Clearly you are not prepared to give others opinion the value they deserve and your conceited posts point to you being the one lacking in 'deep reflections' and not others.

 

[thehog]

Doesn't have to be cobbles but there needs to be at least some recognition of the fact that this is a race.

In recentyears they have been routing the TdF over highways or freshly paved roads so tha the racers only have to deal with "perfect" surfaces. Leads to high speed trains and deadly boring races that are not even worth watching.

As said above, cobbles, gravel roads, dirt roads, goat tracks .... what ever it takes to add variety and remind us of what bike racing is supposed to be and brings some excitement back.

A day like today is classic. It broke the race apart and guarantees that over the next two weeks we will see actual racing and attacking and defending.

This is the best thing that could have happened to the TdF.

Agree. The tour was becoming one long TTT. A true GC winner needs to be well rounded in all facets of bike racing.

In 1980 there was 2 stages of cobbles over 50km!

 

[rhubroma]

I think you have your head somewhere in 17th Century Europe.

We are not the mob and your assertions that we are, are derogatory at best.

Clearly you are not prepared to give others opinion the value they deserve and your conceited posts point to you being the one lacking in 'deep reflections' and not others.

Oh how a lack of a sense of irony is also an indication of intelligence.

My mob comment was ironic, that I have to explain this to you is as pathetic is you telling me about conceited posts when you insulted - without irony - with the your WRONG bit.

So get a grip on reality and you have only given me a stronger conviction about my previous thoughts.

 

[Red Lobster]

Look I find it baffling that after the real PR, this mini-one means we won't have all the big favorites for the grand show in the mountains and that some are thrilled by this prospect. And in response to another poster, if there were no cobbles we can be quite certain Froome would have gotten through the day after his crash, despite the bad weather coditions.

you lost me here. We shouldn't have cobbles because a favorite might crash the day before and need a recovery stage?

 

[Afrank]

Seriously, **** the cobbles, I never want to see them again in a Grand Tour. We have 1 rider 2 minutes in front of all the other GC contenders because he was lucky enough to be in the front part of the peloton as they hit the cobbles. Two guys were with him but crashed. Hate it.

That's part of what makes cobbles great. The battle to get to the cobbles is just as good as the battle that ensues on and after the cobbles.

 

[rhubroma]

you lost me here. We shouldn't have cobbles because a favorite might crash the day before and need a recovery stage?

I wasn't aware he had a broken wrist, if that was indeed the case.

At the time all I was saying is that Froome would have probably gotten through a stage in the rain that didn't have cobbles on the par cours, because he would have not been so mentally derailed.

I understand people like the spectacle of the cobbles, but the sport is no longer in the 80's and I say leave them to the specialists in April. I don't think the Tour should be lost because of the pave, or that riders and teams that have prepared to win in July should have to deal with such a lottery.

The pave is a lottery as much as anything else. Sure ability is awarded, but there is also a crap shoot aspect to it that is just circus-like.

The Tour should not be reduced to such a circus.

Bravo Nibali for sure and if he wins this Tour, I hope its not because of today. That it's because he can really out gun the rest in the high mountains and the TT.

 

[Jagartrott]

Seriously, **** the cobbles, I never want to see them again in a Grand Tour. We have 1 rider 2 minutes in front of all the other GC contenders because he was lucky enough to be in the front part of the peloton as they hit the cobbles. Two guys were with him but crashed. Hate it.

You think this is ALL down to luck?
Of course being lucky or unlucky plays a part, but it can be the same on any mountain stage. Puncture at the wrong moment, and you can lose a minute or two. The fact that Contador finished 2.5 minutes cannot be attributed solely to chance. He didn't puncture and he did not fall.

Why I love the cobbles is: you cannot hide.

 

[rhubroma]

I was not surprised Nibali road well, but didn't expect him to ride as well as he did, droping Cancellara indeed. He's timed his form perfectly.

By contrast, Contador was a flop. His Tour isn't over, but it certainly has been compromised.

 

[Fight.The.Power]

I wasn't aware he had a broken wrist, if that was indeed the case.

At the time all I was saying is that Froome would have probably gotten through a stage in the rain that didn't have cobbles on the par cours, because he would have not been so mentally derailed.

I understand people like the spectacle of the cobbles, but the sport is no longer in the 80's and I say leave them to the specialists in April. I don't think the Tour should be lost because of the pave, or that riders and teams that have prepared to win in July should have to deal with such a lottery.

The pave is a lottery as much as anything else. Sure ability is awarded, but there is also a crap shoot aspect to it that is just circus-like.

The Tour should not be reduced to such a circus.

Bravo Nibali for sure and if he wins this Tour, I hope its not because of today. That it's because he can really out gun the rest in the high mountains and the TT.

You pontificate on a Tour and yet you are not even aware of the circumstances.

You reduce the Tour being a circus and yet appear to be the only one with this view.

You make out like you are some massive intelligence yet cannot spell ?

Well a least I know to not waste any more time on someone such as you who is clearly a myopic idiot.

 

[Red Lobster]

I wasn't aware he had a broken wrist, if that was indeed the case.

At the time all I was saying is that Froome would have probably gotten through a stage in the rain that didn't have cobbles on the par cours, because he would have not been so mentally derailed.

I understand people like the spectacle of the cobbles, but the sport is no longer in the 80's and I say leave them to the specialists in April. I don't think the Tour should be lost because of the pave, or that riders and teams that have prepared to win in July should have to deal with such a lottery.

The pave is a lottery as much as anything else. Sure ability is awarded, but there is also a crap shoot aspect to it that is just circus-like.

The Tour should not be reduced to such a circus.

Bravo Nibali for sure and if he wins this Tour, I hope its not because of today. That it's because he can really out gun the rest in the high mountains and the TT.

There is always a great deal of luck involved - this is why Armstrongs seven consecutive wins are astonishing never mind the doping. Start times in an ITT can totally skew the result. A flat at a bad moment can cost a race. Crashes happen in all kinds of circumstances not correlated to rider skill. To take out cobbles because they marginally increase the role of luck is a misguided exchange in my view.

 

[rhubroma]

You pontificate on a Tour and yet you are not even aware of the circumstances.

You reduce the Tour being a circus and yet appear to be the only one with this view.

You make out like you are some massive intelligence yet cannot spell ?

Well a least I know to not waste any more time on someone such as you who is clearly a myopic idiot.

The circumstances? Well if you mean Froome's wrist it's funny how that was given no mention at the time.

In any case the one making himself out to be the massive intelligence would be you. I didn't came in with insulting remarks about being wrong and myopic idiocy about anything you are anyone else said.

Chill out.

 

[rhubroma]

There is always a great deal of luck involved - this is why Armstrongs seven consecutive wins are astonishing never mind the doping. Start times in an ITT can totally skew the result. A flat at a bad moment can cost a race. Crashes happen in all kinds of circumstances not correlated to rider skill. To take out cobbles because they marginally increase the role of luck is a misguided exchange in my view.

Sure, I realize that, but I the cobbles are a more unique and, in this sense, special circumstance. Some find it thus a great benefit to have them. Other's, like myself, not so much.

Whereas considering the catasrophe they can potentially produce, I find that in today's cycling the misguided exchange is pecisely in giving presidence to their entertainment value, over the increasingly ominous luck factor they bring to the event.

 

[willbick]

Its perfectly valid to question to what degree the Tour should experiment with different aspects of 'road' racing. Should cobbles have a place in the tour? Maybe. What about dirt roads? Maybe. What about rough MTB tracks? Hmmmm.

I think its reasonable to try to ask the tour winner to be able to do more than just climb and TT well but its tricky to do it fairly and not allow the tour to become a sort of demolition derby. Anyway nibali has proved himself to be a very decent cobbles rouleur today, if he shows he can climb with the best as well then he will be a deserving winner, but im not sure he will be able to.

 

[the sceptic]

Seriously, **** the cobbles, I never want to see them again in a Grand Tour. We have 1 rider 2 minutes in front of all the other GC contenders because he was lucky enough to be in the front part of the peloton as they hit the cobbles. Two guys were with him but crashed. Hate it.

tbh I think Contador lost mostly because he was playing it safe and didnt want to crash. Nibali took more risks and it paid off.

But Contador rode like a ***** today imo.

 

[rhubroma]

Its perfectly valid to question to what degree the Tour should experiment with different aspects of 'road' racing. Should cobbles have a place in the tour? Maybe. What about dirt roads? Maybe. What about rough MTB tracks? Hmmmm.

I think its reasonable to try to ask the tour winner to be able to do more than just climb and TT well but its tricky to do it fairly and not allow the tour to become a sort of demolition derby. Anyway nibali has proved himself to be a very decent cobbles rouleur today, if he shows he can climb with the best as well then he will be a deserving winner, but im not sure he will be able to.

That's certainly reasonble.

 

[Red Lobster]

Sure, I realize that, but I the cobbles are a more unique and, in this sense, special circumstance. Some find it thus a great benefit to have them. Other's, like myself, not so much.

Whereas considering the catasrophe they can potentially produce, I find that in today's cycling the misguided exchange is pecisely in giving presidence to their entertainment value, over the increasingly ominous luck factor they bring to the event.

Using your own metric I still find it worthwhile. That is, the entertainment value was extremely high (best Tour stage I have seen in years) and the realized down side minimal (only one DNF and that was primarily due to an event occurring on the prior stage).

 

[rhubroma]

Using your own metric I still find it worthwhile. That is, the entertainment value was extremely high (best Tour stage I have seen in years) and the realized down side minimal (only one DNF and that was primarily due to an event occurring on the prior stage).

Ha, well I can't argue with your preferences.

So I can only say that I hope this stage hasn't compromised the mountains. That will be my final metric on the benefits of such a stage today.

 

[Red Lobster]

tbh I think Contador lost mostly because he was playing it safe and didnt want to crash. Nibali took more risks and it paid off.

But Contador rode like a ***** today imo.

Agree. GC riders could decide whether the prospect of losing some time made it worth pushing the envelope to get a better result today. Part of the genius of the stage. I believe Contador feels he can recover the time in the mountains, thus no reason to push it today. Others felt pressure to gamble more.