Cobo Talk Only

[roundabout]

Geox might not sponsor Gianetti for 2012, probably waiting to see if Cobo gets done or not!

I would guess dealing with Gianetti they should have a clause for events like that.

 

[Frosty]

That doesn't mean anything. Clean riders still prepare for races and can improve their condition over two weeks, and doped riders don't go around dropping hints for the astute cycling fans out there to pick up. You're only seeing what you want to see in that quote.

Lol!

Well said

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Geox is not a World Tour team, yet they are the leading team in overall standings. This reminds me of the stunt Di Luca, Pozzovivo and co pulled off in the Giro some years ago with LPR. You have Menchov, Sastré and even Duarte, who are performing quite well during the last hard stages, where they were nowhere in the first week.

Quite often people who don't perform too well at the start of the race perform well at the end of it. It's to do with timing your form. Some riders recover naturally better than others (though of course some get assistance with this). Just saying "they weren't very good at the start of the race but were good at the end" isn't really a big deal - most everybody knew that in reality, the penultimate weekend was likely to be decisive, so if Geox took a high-risk strategy of trying to peak for the middle and end of the race and risk not being in ideal form at the start, then that could well have paid off. Also, as a ProContinental team, they didn't have as many options in the form of preparation races, so may have found it harder to arrive in Benidorm in race-sharp state.

Oh, and Pozzovivo has never raced for LPR. You appear to be either confusing him with Bosisio, who was di Luca's right hand man in 2009 and wore the maglia rosa in 2008, or blending CSF-Navigare's ludicrous 2008 with LPR Brakes' almost-as-ludicrous 2009 Giro.

Changes in the facial structures due to doping happens over an extended period of time and not instantaneously. I believe this picture is from when he first joined Saunier Duval, and since then it looks like his jaw has grown massively. Obviously the pictures might be a little deceiving, but there's a change there, I think.

Or alternatively, he could just have grown older and completed the growth process?

Agreed

You also need to throw into this equation that despite the efforts in France & Italy to crack down, Spain is still "business as usual". You only have to look at the whole way Contador has been handled to see that. The whole Spanish stance simply undermines every effort elsewhere in Europe to promote clean cycling. What powers to the UCI, IOC and WADA have though to get Spain towing the line?

It's a bit too easy to just throw out the Spain=doping thing. We've had a few busts in Spain this year; few big names involved of course, but there have been busts. It seems that those lower down the hierarchy take their doping-fighting quite seriously, but some of those at the top have too many conflicting interests to join them.

As I've said, looking at a man being tired is irrelevant (because of the possibility of acting etc). What is relevant is if they give an exceptional performance and showing no fatigue (like Cobo on the Angliru and the stage preceding it).

On todays stage Cobo cracked after being challenged for the first time by a rider with the same "ability", it wasn't Cobo slowing down to pace himself and limit his losses. Then a minute or two later he is out of the saddle and sprinting back across to Chris "Broom Broom" Froome!*

Has anyone ever witnessed such a recovery?

Many a time. Roche on La Plagne, anyone?

Peña Cabarga is a steep climb, and it's an inconsistent climb. I was up there. Froome may have looked relatively steady in pace, but if he attacked quite soon and was only able to maintain the same pace as he did after the attack on a less steep bit, Cobo could quite feasibly close that gap. Remember how Evans was the strongest on the Mur de Huy in 2008, but simply went too soon and that allowed Kirchen to get the jump? It's like a longer version of that. Froome gained a lot of time by going when he did, and was clearly the strongest, but going when he did allowed Cobo to come back because you simply can't maintain your "attack" speed on a climb like Peña Cabarga for long.

A finish like that is a bit difficult to judge especially for 2 riders who I doubt have ridden it before.

I'm sure Cobo will have ridden that climb before. Maybe never raced it before at the pro level, but he's from near there. And yes, it is hard to judge on a finish like that that is so inconsistent a climb, and long enough to not be a hill finish, but not long enough to be the big sized MTF.

My problem with Cobo's so called good performances is that they sometimes come at the same time as good performances from his team mates.

Castilla y Leon 2007 - Cobo 3rd, Koldo Gil 2nd and climbing as well as Contador on the MTF

Pais Vasco same year - Koldo Gil, Marchante and Cobo were among the strongest.

Urkiola - same story

2008 better in that regard but when he was really flying 2 team mates tested positive who had won 3 stages up to that point

And this year there's a general Geox revival with Menchov and de la Fuente around stages 13-15.

I am not saying that it means he is dirty but it's a bit curious that he usually comes out of depression when the team is doing well.

How about the 2009 Vuelta, when he was 10th overall and won the final mountain stage? And how he was one of the top guys to La Pandera and all that, riding on a Fuji-Servetto team that gave him next to no support? That year, the top 6 was Valverde, Sánchez, Evans, Basso, Mosquera and Gesink. None of whom are here. The big names that are here have underperformed. Is it really surprising to see Cobo leapfrog the likes of Tiralongo?

 

[roundabout]

How about it indeed. By far and away the worst PT team picked up the pace when the sponsor search was on.

 

[Duartista]

Originally Posted by djerkson View Post
Geox is not a World Tour team, yet they are the leading team in overall standings. This reminds me of the stunt Di Luca, Pozzovivo and co pulled off in the Giro some years ago with LPR. You have Menchov, Sastré and even Duarte, who are performing quite well during the last hard stages, where they were nowhere in the first week.

To add to what Libertine said, Duarte certainly didn't get better as the race went on - he lost 20 mins on the Ancares stage, 8 mins on Farrapona, and plenty more in the final week, finishing up over 1 hour down. Sastre also lost time, finishing about 20 minutes down at the end. Really, the only Geox rider to do anything surprising was Cobo.

I'm sure Cobo will have ridden that climb before. Maybe never raced it before at the pro level, but he's from near there.

Apparently he rode about half way up, then stopped at a bar before heading home - http://www.sport.es/es/noticias/ciclismo/20110912/cobo-triunfo-una-terapia/1147403.shtml

 

[webvan]

From http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ricco-denies-blood-doping-during-questioning

“He won’t make a comeback this year but he doesn’t feel he’s an ex-rider,” Alessi said, adding maliciously. “Considering who else is out there, why should he consider himself an ex-rider?”

Looks like Ricco knows a thing or two about his little friend from the 2008 TDF...

 

[Duartista]

From http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ricco-denies-blood-doping-during-questioning



Looks like Ricco knows a thing or two about his little friend from the 2008 TDF...

Indeed. There are no other riders he could be talking about. None at all.

 

[Fergoose]

I hate to villify the guy, but I reckon one post after 9 months doesn't hurt. Reigning Vuelta champion Juan Jose Cobo currently lies in 148th place in the TdF @11’43” despite suffering no injury through crashing. He lies behind sprinters Mark Renshaw and Haedo in the GC. Posted for information purposes. Explanations welcomed both in terms of Cobo's condition and in terms of Movistar's team tactics.

EDIT: Due to my complete and consistent inability to navigate the ruddy official TdF website classifications this year the overall results posted above are after Stage 4! Cobo has currently actually risen to 60th @ 29.15 and is now winning the battle between him and Mark Renshaw.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I hate to villify the guy, but I reckon one post after 9 months doesn't hurt. Reigning Vuelta champion Juan Jose Cobo currently lies in 148th place in the TdF @11’43” despite suffering no injury through crashing. He lies behind sprinters Mark Renshaw and Haedo in the GC. Posted for information purposes. Explanations welcomed both in terms of Cobo's condition and in terms of Movistar's team tactics.

Cobo is already better than he was in 2010 at Abarcá. By all accounts he struggled to fit in there and they didn't really know how to manage him. Maybe they're doing a bit better this year, but more likely his head's not in it. He's psychologically all over the place sometimes, and though most people would agree that he was shady as all hell when he won the Vuelta, it's not always fair to bag on the guy for bad performances when he has his history of depression and so on.

Basically, there's more difference between Cobo: 2011 Vuelta and Cobo: 2012 Tour than just "clean Cobo" and "dirty Cobo" just as 2008 Cobo was almost certainly doping and 2010 Cobo was probably clean, but the difference was even greater because of his psychological issues in 2010.

 

[zlev11]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cobo-wiggins-and-froome-stronger-than-in-last-years-vuelta-a-espana

read towards the 2nd half of the article

says he's using the Tour to help Valverde and get on form to defend his Vuelta title. i think we'll see him in a few breaks once they get to the real mountains. i think he'll still be a GC threat at the Vuelta.

 

[Fergoose]

Basically, there's more difference between Cobo: 2011 Vuelta and Cobo: 2012 Tour than just "clean Cobo" and "dirty Cobo" just as 2008 Cobo was almost certainly doping and 2010 Cobo was probably clean, but the difference was even greater because of his psychological issues in 2010.

I heard Froome was depressed up until 2011! Well it's as good as anything else I've heard.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cobo-wiggins-and-froome-stronger-than-in-last-years-vuelta-a-espana

read towards the 2nd half of the article

says he's using the Tour to help Valverde and get on form to defend his Vuelta title. i think we'll see him in a few breaks once they get to the real mountains. i think he'll still be a GC threat at the Vuelta.

Yeah. I read that. The reigning Vuelta champion is so humble, not even super-domestique, just domestique - is there any precedent for that in the history of cycling?

Plus he’s not much assistance to Valverde (or more accurately now Rui Costa) if he’s ignoring his god given ability to ascend and disappearing from view as soon as the gradient hits 1% is he? Movistar don’t need someone to go out and win stages, they need someone to help Rui Costa get a top 5-10 place and so far he hasn’t lifted a finger.

Obviously, I’m being a bit mischevious here (and forgive me for that), but I’m at a loss as to what Movistar think they are achieving with him here. Gentle rides at the back of the field isn’t going to get him in shape is it?

I too think Cobo will compete heavily in the Vuelta despite this showing. Head to head with Froome and Contador. The Clinic may go into meltdown.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Fergoose what is it you want to say? that cobo is a doper? ...i think we will all agree with you on that.

 

[Fergoose]

Fergoose what is it you want to say? that cobo is a doper? ...i think we will all agree with you on that.

Yes. I think such things bear repeating from time to time in the face of new evidence (such as this TdF performance) incase anyone get the impression that doping in 2012 is a purely anglophone thing. There was tumble weed rolling through this thread on a reigning GT champion.

If nobody wants to stick up for him even though he has never had a doping ban then fair enough. But with people declaring they'll never watch the TdF again after Wiggins took less than 3 minutes out of Jens Voigt on an ITT, I think its useful to point out that all wasn't sunshine and kittens prior to this TdF and that Wiggins is far from the most unexplainable performer in world cycling.

I'm all for a short, decisive thread though and point made. But I am genuinely puzzled by Movistar.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Yes. I think such things bear repeating from time to time in the face of new evidence (such as this TdF performance) incase anyone get the impression that doping in 2012 is a purely anglophone thing. There was tumble weed rolling through this thread on a reigning GT champion.

There was a tumbleweed rolling through the thread because Cobo has been doing nothing of note, so there's little to say about him.

Most people are happy to say that he was probably doping at Saunier Duval, and probably doping in the 2011 Vuelta. He doesn't have a doping ban, but there are rumours and suspicious acts on the bike. However, why would we still be talking about it now? He's not in the public eye because he's not doing anything to merit our attention being paid to him.

If he goes in the break on Wednesday and decimates the field like Emanuele Sella in the '08 Giro, the thread will kick back off.

 

[del1962]

Where were you when Juan José Cobo needed you?

From another thread, you asked the question.

Firstly I wasn't on forum during 2011 Vuelta, so here are my thoughts

I have never accused COBO of doping, so I don't know, however the Hautcam incident were his teammate who he finished alone with getting caught for CERA does not help him, (would he as second have been tested that day?), or the fact that his other teamate got caught, but we cant from that say he was doping

The only thing that really annoyed me about the 2011 Vuelta were the death threats against Froome though.

 

[the sceptic]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cobo-signs-with-torku-konya-sekerspor

I cant wait for the 2014 tour of turkey

 

[thehog]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cobo-signs-with-torku-konya-sekerspor

I cant wait for the 2014 tour of turkey

I love Cobo. I seriously need a Cobo t-shirt shaped like Che Guevara.

Maybe Froome will do the Tour of Turkey for a rematch?

 

[hrotha]

Better top this I guess.

This is pretty weird. If they had retested his samples and found something, then OK, but it's a biological passport infraction. What new data could they possibly have? Didn't they look into it back in the day? I know it can take a few years but come on.

 

[F_Cance]

True. Questions over questions.

 

[spalco]

Re:

Better top this I guess.

This is pretty weird. If they had retested his samples and found something, then OK, but it's a biological passport infraction. What new data could they possibly have? Didn't they look into it back in the day? I know it can take a few years but come on.

That's hilarious. 8 *** years for a passport infraction? Has somebody in Aigle literally been inspecting his numbers for that long to come with this conclusion? Does Cobo even care about this win anymore?

What the ***?

 

[Forever The Best]

Am I the only one who thinks that timing is so weird?

 

[ice&fire]

Re:

Am I the only one who thinks that timing is so weird?

They should have waited till the week the Tour starts

 

[luckyboy]

https://twitter.com/fmk_RoI/status/1139181092139884546

"The Denis Menchov case - where only selected results were annulled after an ABP violation - suggests this may not be so... Also pay attention to the disdain shown by Spanish courts for the ABP and rewriting the Vuelta's results. Don't bet on the UCI flushing money down the drain."

There's hope yet..

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

Better top this I guess.

This is pretty weird. If they had retested his samples and found something, then OK, but it's a biological passport infraction. What new data could they possibly have? Didn't they look into it back in the day? I know it can take a few years but come on.

That's hilarious. 8 **** years for a passport infraction? Has somebody in Aigle literally been inspecting his numbers for that long to come with this conclusion? Does Cobo even care about this win anymore?

What the ****?

Only thing I can think of is that maybe they weren't sure they had a slum dunk case so they put it off as much as possible (as per the SOL), either hoping for a breakthrough/new test or for a confession. But that'd be bizarre, there's literally nothing to support this theory, and there was any merit to it then it'd be the standard procedure, which it clearly isn't. So wut.

 

[roundabout]

Re: Re:

Better top this I guess.

This is pretty weird. If they had retested his samples and found something, then OK, but it's a biological passport infraction. What new data could they possibly have? Didn't they look into it back in the day? I know it can take a few years but come on.

That's hilarious. 8 **** years for a passport infraction? Has somebody in Aigle literally been inspecting his numbers for that long to come with this conclusion? Does Cobo even care about this win anymore?

What the ****?

Only thing I can think of is that maybe they weren't sure they had a slum dunk case so they put it off as much as possible (as per the SOL), either hoping for a breakthrough/new test or for a confession. But that'd be bizarre, there's literally nothing to support this theory, and there was any merit to it then it'd be the standard procedure, which it clearly isn't. So wut.

Let's see what else comes out then

My initial very speculative thought is that it may be related to this bit of news

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/media/news/2019-06/wada-introduces-standard-analyzer-at-all-laboratories-approved-for-abp-controls