Wallace said:
WHAT-EVA.
You prove to me RIGHT NOW that you can get an extra kick out of 50 picograms and I'll pay you $ 100.00.
Susan Westemeyer said:
In that case, whenever I see a derogatory post can I send you a PM?
'Cause let me tell you, it happens every day of the week. And most of them suspiciously elude your attention...
If we're going to be fair, let's be fair with everyone, not just a few.
And I'll have you know that calling someone an idiot because they keep making idiotic statements is actually, technically, not an insult since it is in their nature to make idiotic statements. If they want people to stop calling them idiots they know exactly what they have to do: Stop making idiotic statements! Not a big request I would think...
- Jun 22, 2009
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Señ said:
this statement is comic gold, but not in the way you meant it to be...
EDIT: also, you owe wallace a c note, pay up!
Just a quick note of support to say that The Swordsman and GJB123 have done a great job of summarizing my viewpoint.
Due process for riders.
There must be minimum thresholds for substances where contamination is not only possible, but statistically inevitable at those levels. The rule in its present form is a farce.
A rider should not need an "excuse", or even need to have any idea how it might have entered into his system at those levels. The fact is that it can, through no fault of his own, and the burden of proof should not be on the rider.
I would go further in saying that by my criteria, the Plasticizer test is clearly not ready for prime time, and the leaking or manipulation of that information by WADA amounts to corruption of the highest degree.
I would venture to say that if you disagree with these fundamental principles, then you have never competed in a sport at a level where your career has been derailed, even temporarily, by administrative incompetence.
Due process for riders. This has nothing to do with your particular vested interest in the sport or whether you, I, or the man in the moon believes most of the peloton is doped to the gills. There are others ways to clean up the sport that don't involve the possibility of victimizing an innocent rider.
Due process for riders.
There must be minimum thresholds for substances where contamination is not only possible, but statistically inevitable at those levels. The rule in its present form is a farce.
A rider should not need an "excuse", or even need to have any idea how it might have entered into his system at those levels. The fact is that it can, through no fault of his own, and the burden of proof should not be on the rider.
I would go further in saying that by my criteria, the Plasticizer test is clearly not ready for prime time, and the leaking or manipulation of that information by WADA amounts to corruption of the highest degree.
I would venture to say that if you disagree with these fundamental principles, then you have never competed in a sport at a level where your career has been derailed, even temporarily, by administrative incompetence.
Due process for riders. This has nothing to do with your particular vested interest in the sport or whether you, I, or the man in the moon believes most of the peloton is doped to the gills. There are others ways to clean up the sport that don't involve the possibility of victimizing an innocent rider.
Je ne sais quoi said:
I disagree.......there are substances that should not be allowed to be used at any levels.
Je ne sais quoi said:
Sounds like a fanboy reponse. I think riders should take this as a warning that its coming and the test is going to be used shortly. Maybe they will need to start testing for glass soon.
How is the test for Clen administrative incompetence? I think its funny he tested positive for it suffered no ill affect that a person would have who would normally have if they ingested Clen. No reports of issues of other riders on his team. Ironicly Vino is the only other rider that was tested that day.Je ne sais quoi said:
Je ne sais quoi said:
Due process is that the accuser must provide burden of proof. I think the UCI and WADA have done that. Its up to the defense to create "THE STORY" for hs defense. If you think Contador is innocent then you are mistaken. I think the right answer is to make sure that all sports are equally tested and have standard protocols but if you look at cycling its the most tested sport in the world. Here in the US, hocky, baseball, basketball, and footbal you know are heavily doped but no one cares.
- Feb 14, 2010
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Some people are automatically going to think Contador doped no matter what the facts are. Some thing that "AC - the same or nothing" from Operacion Puerto means he's guilty, even if AC stood for Anthony Colom, and Fuentes, who rarely spoke, went out of his way to say he didn't know Alberto. Others think all Spanish riders are doped, or the entire peloton. I imagine that almost everyone who now says he doped would have said the same in July, so discussing the evidence is pretty useless.
But like other legal proceedings, there's a specific event on a specific day that's to be addressed. This isn't about transfusions, or whatever. It's about two tiny amounts of a substance that could not help his Tour de France performance, and that would not be an issue if his samples had been tested in Lausanne with everyone elses (who might also have had Clenbuterol in their system). But his samples were held to a higher standard than even someone who was rumored during the race to be using something new (see the blue text below).
Yes, other athletes have tested positive for the same substance, but none of them were in a situation where they were tested six days in a row. It's easy to believe that in the days prior to the positive, they might have had a higher amount. But Contador had 0, 0, 50, 20, 0, 0. WADA and the UCI had their best international experts and their most precise lab spend more than a month going over Contador's passport, and in the end, all they had were those same traces of Clenbuterol.
The UCI only kept the other rider's Tour de France samples stored for three months (IO Report), so if anyone cheated, they got away with it. Contador told them they can keep his samples frozen for as long as they want to be retested when new tests are available. If that happens, and they find something, this can be revisited. But for now it's about Clenbuterol.
We were told that the Spanish system of beef is perfect. Now we find out that they don't test that much, and that not all samples are checked for Clenbuterol. Only 1 in 1199 was in 2008, the most recent figures available. That leaked report from WADA - the one where they didn't actually test any samples (all of my links are in earlier posts) - the article had something in it about farmers stopping use of Clenbuterol 14 to 20 days before slaughter. I'm not sure of the translations, but it looked like a shift from it doesn't exist to well, yeah, they do it, but they're tricky enough that it can't have gotten into Contador. Then we get the news flash that oh, by the way, Spain doesn't have enough beef to go around, so the imported 4 BILLION pounds (200 million tons), and a lot of that moves through the port 9 miles from Irun. But nope, people still won't believe, or let others of us believe, that Contador just might have gotten an absolutely useless amount of the stuff in his system by accident.
There was definitely something odd about the way WADA and the UCI handled this. Like I said earlier in the thread, according to the Independent Observer Report for the Tour de France, the UCI had an agreement with the Lausanne Lab to get all test results that were looking for banned substances (some tests are for the Biological Passport only) within 72 hours, and that happened.
They also had an agreement with the Cologne Lab based on an e-mail only to send samples from 3 days of the race for further testing. They only sent ten samples total. Imagine a courier making a trip from France to Germany with three or four temperature controlled containers of urine and doing that several different days, or saving them all for one trip?
At least two of those were Contador's, but either immediately or eventually samples from the afternoon or evening of July 19, 20, 21, 22, 23 & 24 all ended up there. Contador was the race leader. His results were obviously important - that's the reason for sending them for special testing. So how does WADA justify that with only ten high importance samples, they didn't have the July 21 results until August 23? And that the results of those samples leaked to the press? The lab standard for a routine sample is ten working days, and the IO Report said that was met.
How does the UCI justify not reporting the positive on August 23, instead waiting until the impending press leaks forced Contador to make a statement?
http://www.velonation.com/Photos/Photo-Album/mmid/614/mediaid/568.aspx
Then for another month, the UCI kept Contador under a gag order. He told his brother/manager, and contacted an expert that the UCI recommended to him when he asked. If Alberto and the UCI were to be adversaries in this, should he be letting the opposition pick his defense team?
But he was still punished for a month because he wasn't allowed to tell even his parents who he sees pretty much every day that he had tested positive. What other athlete has ever been put under a gag order like that where they can't look for support from their family and friends? He couldn't even tell his new boss at the start of their relationship.
http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/W...endent-Observer/WADA_IO_Report_TDF2010_EN.pdf
But like other legal proceedings, there's a specific event on a specific day that's to be addressed. This isn't about transfusions, or whatever. It's about two tiny amounts of a substance that could not help his Tour de France performance, and that would not be an issue if his samples had been tested in Lausanne with everyone elses (who might also have had Clenbuterol in their system). But his samples were held to a higher standard than even someone who was rumored during the race to be using something new (see the blue text below).
Yes, other athletes have tested positive for the same substance, but none of them were in a situation where they were tested six days in a row. It's easy to believe that in the days prior to the positive, they might have had a higher amount. But Contador had 0, 0, 50, 20, 0, 0. WADA and the UCI had their best international experts and their most precise lab spend more than a month going over Contador's passport, and in the end, all they had were those same traces of Clenbuterol.
The UCI only kept the other rider's Tour de France samples stored for three months (IO Report), so if anyone cheated, they got away with it. Contador told them they can keep his samples frozen for as long as they want to be retested when new tests are available. If that happens, and they find something, this can be revisited. But for now it's about Clenbuterol.
We were told that the Spanish system of beef is perfect. Now we find out that they don't test that much, and that not all samples are checked for Clenbuterol. Only 1 in 1199 was in 2008, the most recent figures available. That leaked report from WADA - the one where they didn't actually test any samples (all of my links are in earlier posts) - the article had something in it about farmers stopping use of Clenbuterol 14 to 20 days before slaughter. I'm not sure of the translations, but it looked like a shift from it doesn't exist to well, yeah, they do it, but they're tricky enough that it can't have gotten into Contador. Then we get the news flash that oh, by the way, Spain doesn't have enough beef to go around, so the imported 4 BILLION pounds (200 million tons), and a lot of that moves through the port 9 miles from Irun. But nope, people still won't believe, or let others of us believe, that Contador just might have gotten an absolutely useless amount of the stuff in his system by accident.
There was definitely something odd about the way WADA and the UCI handled this. Like I said earlier in the thread, according to the Independent Observer Report for the Tour de France, the UCI had an agreement with the Lausanne Lab to get all test results that were looking for banned substances (some tests are for the Biological Passport only) within 72 hours, and that happened.
They also had an agreement with the Cologne Lab based on an e-mail only to send samples from 3 days of the race for further testing. They only sent ten samples total. Imagine a courier making a trip from France to Germany with three or four temperature controlled containers of urine and doing that several different days, or saving them all for one trip?
At least two of those were Contador's, but either immediately or eventually samples from the afternoon or evening of July 19, 20, 21, 22, 23 & 24 all ended up there. Contador was the race leader. His results were obviously important - that's the reason for sending them for special testing. So how does WADA justify that with only ten high importance samples, they didn't have the July 21 results until August 23? And that the results of those samples leaked to the press? The lab standard for a routine sample is ten working days, and the IO Report said that was met.
How does the UCI justify not reporting the positive on August 23, instead waiting until the impending press leaks forced Contador to make a statement?
http://www.velonation.com/Photos/Photo-Album/mmid/614/mediaid/568.aspx
Then for another month, the UCI kept Contador under a gag order. He told his brother/manager, and contacted an expert that the UCI recommended to him when he asked. If Alberto and the UCI were to be adversaries in this, should he be letting the opposition pick his defense team?
But he was still punished for a month because he wasn't allowed to tell even his parents who he sees pretty much every day that he had tested positive. What other athlete has ever been put under a gag order like that where they can't look for support from their family and friends? He couldn't even tell his new boss at the start of their relationship.
http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/W...endent-Observer/WADA_IO_Report_TDF2010_EN.pdf
- Jun 10, 2010
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Several problems with that post.
The initials 'AC' were found in a list of Liberty Seguros riders. Colom rode for Illes Balears at the time. Also, "the same or nothing" to me implies he doped, even if at a particular time he might not take any substances for whatever reason (fear of medical complications from his cavernoma, a desire not to burn out a young rider by having him on the program at all times, or even the result of an adverse reaction to a previous program which made Fuentes and Saiz doubt about the convenience of doping him - Kelme's Juan Miguel Cuenca was clean because his body would reject the dope). If he was 100% clean, I don't think "the same or nothing" would have been written in that list. It would have been just "nothing". The alternative (that Contador didn't want to dope and that it was just an indication of what program he should follow if he gave in) is less likely to me.
People keep saying clen can't possibly help his performance, but that's blatantly wrong. Losing weight without losing muscle helps you win the Tour. You're also saying Contador was singled out, which is also false. More samples were sent to Cologne, but it's not their fault if they didn't test positive for clenbuterol. Notice also they're not even using the plasticizers test to punish him, so I'm not sure what you're complaining about.
Contador's passport has been described as "chaotic", but due to the nature of the passport and to the kind of stuff riders do to beat it, nothing has come out of it. That hardly means he's innocent, and you know it. They can't nail him for his passport, but there's still the clen. A transfussion with tainted blood remains the more likely explanation.
What you're saying about imported meat and Saint-Jean-de-Luz comes from what one random Spanish farmer with an agenda against imported meat has said, ignoring the fact that Saint-Jean-de-Luz is a tiny port, and that it's in France (and relatively close to Pau, while we're at it). There's also the issue of why López Cerrón would buy imported meat (the same which was presumably available at Pau, since the random Spanish farmer said most of that meat ends up in France or the Netherlands) when the whole point was that the meat available at Pau was poor compared to Spanish meat, which by the way is 100% traceable.
The results getting leaked is unfortunate but on the other hand if they weren't leaked, how many positives would be hidden? It's funny that you're suggesting the secretive behaviour of UCI regarding Contador's positive is a sign that Contador was wronged by the UCI, when most everybody would argue the UCI was doing their best to help Contador out and dealing with the positive internally.
Also Contador didn't say he wasn't allowed to tell anyone, even his parents. He said he didn't tell them so that they didn't have to worry. The UCI could have done nothing if Contador had decided to speak up earlier. If he chose not to tell Riis, that was his decision - one which I think also illustrates his character.
The initials 'AC' were found in a list of Liberty Seguros riders. Colom rode for Illes Balears at the time. Also, "the same or nothing" to me implies he doped, even if at a particular time he might not take any substances for whatever reason (fear of medical complications from his cavernoma, a desire not to burn out a young rider by having him on the program at all times, or even the result of an adverse reaction to a previous program which made Fuentes and Saiz doubt about the convenience of doping him - Kelme's Juan Miguel Cuenca was clean because his body would reject the dope). If he was 100% clean, I don't think "the same or nothing" would have been written in that list. It would have been just "nothing". The alternative (that Contador didn't want to dope and that it was just an indication of what program he should follow if he gave in) is less likely to me.
People keep saying clen can't possibly help his performance, but that's blatantly wrong. Losing weight without losing muscle helps you win the Tour. You're also saying Contador was singled out, which is also false. More samples were sent to Cologne, but it's not their fault if they didn't test positive for clenbuterol. Notice also they're not even using the plasticizers test to punish him, so I'm not sure what you're complaining about.
Contador's passport has been described as "chaotic", but due to the nature of the passport and to the kind of stuff riders do to beat it, nothing has come out of it. That hardly means he's innocent, and you know it. They can't nail him for his passport, but there's still the clen. A transfussion with tainted blood remains the more likely explanation.
What you're saying about imported meat and Saint-Jean-de-Luz comes from what one random Spanish farmer with an agenda against imported meat has said, ignoring the fact that Saint-Jean-de-Luz is a tiny port, and that it's in France (and relatively close to Pau, while we're at it). There's also the issue of why López Cerrón would buy imported meat (the same which was presumably available at Pau, since the random Spanish farmer said most of that meat ends up in France or the Netherlands) when the whole point was that the meat available at Pau was poor compared to Spanish meat, which by the way is 100% traceable.
The results getting leaked is unfortunate but on the other hand if they weren't leaked, how many positives would be hidden? It's funny that you're suggesting the secretive behaviour of UCI regarding Contador's positive is a sign that Contador was wronged by the UCI, when most everybody would argue the UCI was doing their best to help Contador out and dealing with the positive internally.
Also Contador didn't say he wasn't allowed to tell anyone, even his parents. He said he didn't tell them so that they didn't have to worry. The UCI could have done nothing if Contador had decided to speak up earlier. If he chose not to tell Riis, that was his decision - one which I think also illustrates his character.
theswordsman said:
It doesnt matter how much the Spanish goverment check samples for Clenbuterol. The only thing that matters is the butcher, and those who supply the butcher, not how much they check for clen in Spain. And sadly for Contador, no clen was found at the butcher or those who supply him. Thats what matters in this case.
- Oct 5, 2010
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theswordsman said:
so your argument is ... the person who is the reigning champion, favourite and current race leader doesnt deserve closer scrutiny - and some hasbeen who is rumoured to be on some unnamed new drug is?
theswordsman said:
All that they could PROVE is the clen. I am assuming they went over it with a fine tooth comb because they had various suspicious readings from his passport and wanted to check them. He is a 10 on the risk scale, so they SHOULD be checking it to that level (as well as testing the other 10's to that degree ... but thats another story)
theswordsman said:
yes there was - I agree with you there. Doesnt mean he isnt guilty, just that they are playing games and politics.
They also didnt put him under a gag order at all (they cant). They said THEY would not report on his posative test to give him time to respond etc. And they didnt ... they only came out in the end because it was leaked by the lab. AC on the other hand, was free to tell whoever he wanted from the moment he was notified - and obviously he did tell some poeple as he mounted an enormous legal defence (which he certainly didnt put together himself)
biopass said:
+1
hrotha said:
No one has said that. What was said is that 50 picograms of clenbuterol will not improve athletic performance. Hence it cannot be considered doping.
- May 26, 2010
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Señor_Contador said:
you sound like a pubic stratalies intern.
the 50 picograms is leftover from training in the blood when he was using clen and getting full benefit from it. Of course we all know that 50 picorgams was not gonna effect his performance on the following days stage but the transfusion the clen was in definitely would
Señor_Contador said:
50 picogram of clenbuterol is still 50 picogram of illegal substance found in Contadors body.
Benotti69 said:you sound like a pubic stratalies intern.
Geez, and you sound like a guy with 24 hours too many...
Oh, you mean from the clenbuterol that Snow White and the Sever Dwarfs sent him via Harry Potter? Oh yes, that one!
Of course we all know that 50 picorgams was not gonna effect his performance on the following days stage but the transfusion the clen was in definitely would
So you're technically saying that there was something else in the supposed transfusion bag?? What exactly??
biopass said:
Which could pretty much have come from anything really.
My I-pad has mora than 50 picograms of clenbuterol in it... and it has never ridden a bicycle in its life.
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