Contador and Spanish cycling

[Maxiton]

I've always been a fan of Contador's but this just sounds like the old guard of dopers circling the wagons. If anything comes out of the ongoing controversy and investigations about him he's banned for life. I could see why he resents the attention the guys talking are creating.

I wished Contador had come into the sport in a clean peloton. He's got great heart and class on the course and he looks like a once in a generation talent (although one never knows with cycling's recent history). A shame he maybe part of the problem rather then the solution.

I agree with you on almost all points. It's a shame that not only we, but the riders themselves, will never know what their true talent was capable of achieving.
As you stated, any other implication of doping will sideline AC for life. That is a pretty big motive from someone that has got to be worried. If he could, in any legit way, distance himself across the globe from Johan, he would be doing it to save his a**. The fact that he isn't worries me. We are only a few weeks into this and look what has transpired around the globe.
I doubt Riis and AC are still involved in cycling by the time the TdF rolls around in July.

I agree with both these statements. And it's a sad thing. Cycling stands to lose what is very likely the greatest rider of his generation (he appears to be a decent chap, to boot); in fairness, though, in a very real sense he was lost as soon as the corrupt system corrupted him, i.e., from the beginning.

And even Riis - an entertaining personality and someone who clearly has a passion for the sport. He was likewise lost long ago. In a parallel dimension, where cycling was cleared of corruption decades earlier, Riis might have made a great team owner-manager.

As always, corruption leaves ruin in its wake.

 

[gatete]

I've always been a fan of Contador's but this just sounds like the old guard of dopers circling the wagons. If anything comes out of the ongoing controversy and investigations about him he's banned for life. I could see why he resents the attention the guys talking are creating.

I wished Contador had come into the sport in a clean peloton. He's got great heart and class on the course and he looks like a once in a generation talent (although one never knows with cycling's recent history). A shame he maybe part of the problem rather then the solution.

I'm also a fan of AC but I get confused about the part of people wanting him to come with a sword and cut LA balls.

If Alberto is a doper (and some people has been saying that for quite some time) then it would look foolish for him to criticize anybody about doping.

It's like the pretty chick making fun of the ugly chicks= shallow and mean

ugly chick making fun of ugly chicks=ridiculous funny.........you name it

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Either he hasn't read the USADA report or he is lying about what he knows to be included in the report. If he is commenting on the report without having read it or he doesn't understand the report then he is clearly stupid, if he read the report and understood it but chooses to misrepresent it then he is lying.

Can he read English? Maybe his handlers are shielding him from the truth of its contents?

 

[airstream]

So what's not true?

everything is not true. professional cycling with contador can be saved only by s professional killer.

Down with the redneck froom Pinto!!!

 

[LaFlorecita]

everything is not true. professional cycling with contador can be saved only by s professional killer.

Down with the redneck froom Pinto!!!

What the f there is something extremely wrong with you, maybe you should see a doctor Your obsession with Alberto is almost frightening, not even I am so obsessed with him

 

[Maxiton]

What the f there is something extremely wrong with you, maybe you should see a doctor Your obsession with Alberto is almost frightening, not even I am so obsessed with him

Andy's just upset because Contador wins and he doesn't.

 

[airstream]

What the f there is something extremely wrong with you, maybe you should see a doctor Your obsession with Alberto is almost frightening, not even I am so obsessed with him

im having fun partially. but cycling has to be purified from dirty
double-tongued *******s

 

[LaFlorecita]

Andy's just upset because Contador wins and he doesn't.

Yeah probably

 

[silverrocket]

For all of your semantics, the claim of either no new tests or evidence, both are untrue. The new 'tests' are the blood profile analysis, the new 'evidence' is the eye witness testimony and the evidence from the blood profile.

Either he hasn't read the USADA report or he is lying about what he knows to be included in the report. If he is commenting on the report without having read it or he doesn't understand the report then he is clearly stupid, if he read the report and understood it but chooses to misrepresent it then he is lying.

I think it might also be a case of him having gotten only the "gist" of the report, then put on the spot by an interviewer and having to comment on it when he really was not informed enough to do so.

Also, results from a test for doping and "evidence" of doping ARE two different things, so should not be discarded as semantics. This is why they created the term "non-analytical positive". Post-hoc analysis of blood profile trends is not a test, since it is interpretive and subjective, but instead is a non-analytical way to look for indications of doping. An exception to this might be a biological passport where an actual statistical test could be performed to see if a blood profile trend is "not normal" when compared to a baseline blood profile trend. Trends in blood parameters are difficult to analyze absolutely, compared to a test for >50% hematocrit, or something.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

If you span any harder you'd drill yourself into the ground.

You are guessing that he only got the 'gist' of the report and that he was put on the spot by a reporter, while lecturing me about the exact meaning of test and evidence.

So you can play speculation games when it helps the defence of your boy, and gives you some way of justifying him saying stupid things that are pretty much undefendable. While at the same time trying to introduce a semantic argument about the meaning of the words test and evidence actually mean, and of course, the meaning that you choose to ascribe to the words is of course the meaning that paints Dertie Cont in the most favourable light.

Funny how his response is based on 'gist' and being put on the 'spot' but that when he referred to 'no new evidence/test' he was answering with a precise and exact understanding of the difference between a positive test and 'evidence' as based upon his deep understanding of testing procedures and the reading of blood profiles.

Chinny ****ing reckon.

 

[gatete]

If you span any harder you'd drill yourself into the ground.

You are guessing that he only got the 'gist' of the report and that he was put on the spot by a reporter, while lecturing me about the exact meaning of test and evidence.

So you can play speculation games when it helps the defence of your boy, and gives you some way of justifying him saying stupid things that are pretty much undefendable. While at the same time trying to introduce a semantic argument about the meaning of the words test and evidence actually mean, and of course, the meaning that you choose to ascribe to the words is of course the meaning that paints Dertie Cont in the most favourable light.

Funny how his response is based on 'gist' and being put on the 'spot' but that when he referred to 'no new evidence/test' he was answering with a precise and exact understanding of the difference between a positive test and 'evidence' as based upon his deep understanding of testing procedures and the reading of blood profiles.

Chinny ****ing reckon.

I'm wondering what his response should be.

 

[wannab]

... but cycling has to be purified from dirty
double-tongued *******s

ye! luckily Clentador is being consistant!

 

[skidmark]

I agree with you on almost all points. It's a shame that not only we, but the riders themselves, will never know what their true talent was capable of achieving.
As you stated, any other implication of doping will sideline AC for life. That is a pretty big motive from someone that has got to be worried. If he could, in any legit way, distance himself across the globe from Johan, he would be doing it to save his a**. The fact that he isn't worries me. We are only a few weeks into this and look what has transpired around the globe.
I doubt Riis and AC are still involved in cycling by the time the TdF rolls around in July.

On the bolded part: wouldn't AC only have an 8-year ban or whatever it is if he was caught for doping now? Like, if he confessed to doping 5 years ago (or, let's say they retested his samples), doesn't that predate his first doping suspension? I was under the impression that the rules were such that you couldn't be suspended more for a 'second' offence if it occurred before the first.

 

[M Sport]

On the bolded part: wouldn't AC only have an 8-year ban or whatever it is if he was caught for doping now? Like, if he confessed to doping 5 years ago (or, let's say they retested his samples), doesn't that predate his first doping suspension? I was under the impression that the rules were such that you couldn't be suspended more for a 'second' offence if it occurred before the first.

Can you get pinged at all for an offence that pre-dates any sanctioned offence? I recall reading an article a year or so ago that implied that effectively your slate is wiped clean once you're sanctioned, only future offences can be prosecuted.

 

[LaFlorecita]

On the bolded part: wouldn't AC only have an 8-year ban or whatever it is if he was caught for doping now? Like, if he confessed to doping 5 years ago (or, let's say they retested his samples), doesn't that predate his first doping suspension? I was under the impression that the rules were such that you couldn't be suspended more for a 'second' offence if it occurred before the first.

Can you get pinged at all for an offence that pre-dates any sanctioned offence? I recall reading an article a year or so ago that implied that effectively your slate is wiped clean once you're sanctioned, only future offences can be prosecuted.

This also got me wondering a while ago, I mean what if he stopped doping after his positive test/ban, wouldn't it be unfair to ban him again (and even longer) for the period of doping he already got a ban for?

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

I'm wondering what his response should be.

I think his response was perfect because it showed him to be what he is - a doped up defender of omerta and drug fueled racing with little idea of how the world views cycling.

 

[Bobito]

When did the Spanish King apologize..links?

He apologized earlier this year after he hurt his hip on a fall during an elephant hunting trip organized by his long time girlfriend.

 

[No_Balls]

I am pleased to see the name of the thread has changed although the damage (not speaking cycling here) was already done since long ago. It took a little while but it is good to know even The Clinic has standards.

Last time I checked Boonen wasn't an Armstrong kiss-@ss/apologetic. He also wasn't very satisfied when riding at USPS so don't finger point all ex-USPS riders by default.

This is the magical understanding of reality that a lot in here seems unable to fathom. You dont have to litterary kiss the mans *** to be considered an apologetic and/or a mouth of Omertá. Sometimes this reality is more evident for not what riders says but what they dont´t say. And, what have they actual say to hint that they are prepare to do whats necessary isolating them from Armstrong and the ghosts from the past? I have heard the sound of the silence.

Do you think Armstrong wouldn't have doped without Bruyneel (Belgian)? Belgium/Spain/.. are the roots of pro-cycling, so part of the doping culture originated there. There will be cheaters, regardless of what nationality.

The modern doping culture originated in Italy. And despite it in Italy being a investigation of cycling as a modern day mafia, ruled under the Ferrari-family, as their private evil empire based on taxing frauds, money laundering (with the doping money) with a network of lawyers, doctors, bankers connected to a 20+ teams of various heritage we are sitting here discussing riders. Oh, i forgot, spanish riders.

I'm also a fan of AC but I get confused about the part of people wanting him to come with a sword and cut LA balls.

If this is the case then i offer TS, and some others, to come out from his hiding and presenting which of the current riders who have crucified Armstrong. The strongest condemnation i have read is Kittel speaking out on Twitter against "Armstrongs supporter" which i understand is supposed to be the spanish.

As i predicted they are trying to steer the debate from Mr Armstrong and his followers/network and fuel the hate in another direction. A very predictable smokescreen.

 

[Descender]

Well said!

It seems pretty clear to me all this Spain hatin' is just sour grapes.

Everybody knows Spaniards are as comitted to fighting doping as anybody else. Ok, so their federation might be full of biased homers, but who isn't?

And their judicial system might have blocked and pretty much shelved any doping case they got into their hands... but that's just the judges.

Their government might be dirty as hell, but hey, they're the ones suffering that unlucky curse!

They might be number one in shady doctors per square kilometre, but that's just coincidence.

So what, their riders are the only ones backing Armstrong in unison, but that's just the riders.

So Contador got treated to a hero's welcome when he tested positive, but that was just a couple of retards, not representative at all.

Their media might be a dopers-loving joke, but what does the media have to do with the people!

Pretty much every internet poll shows almost half the Spaniards think Armstrong shouldn't have lost his titles, but everybody knows internet polls have zero credibility!

The Spanish culture isn't more lenient towards doping than any other culture, what a ridiculous thing to say! Spaniards just happened to get the wrong cycling authorities, judges, governments, doctors, riders and media. In reality, they're just victims of all this.

 

[wannab]

This is the magical understanding of reality that a lot in here seems unable to fathom. You dont have to litterary kiss the mans *** to be considered an apologetic and/or a mouth of Omertá.Sometimes this reality is more evident for not what riders says but what they dont´t say. And, what have they actual say to hint that they are prepare to do whats necessary isolating them from Armstrong and the ghosts from the past? I have heard the sound of the silence.

Of course you don't. But lets overview the problem, so you've got
1) upholders of the Omerta (Encouraging)
2) supporters of the Omerta (Silently agreeing)
3) "victims" of the Omerta (Dope and/or remain silent or lose my job, but part of the system)

SO, one way or another they are all complicit. However, some were left little choice.

Some are probably still riding now and could lose their job if they speak, of course you'll hear silence ..

The Spanish culture isn't more lenient towards doping than any other culture, what a ridiculous thing to say! Spaniards just happened to get the wrong cycling authorities, judges, governments, doctors, riders and media. In reality, they're just victims of all this.

America has a high number of rapists, therefor every American is a rapist?

 

[henryg]

Well said!

It seems pretty clear to me all this Spain hatin' is just sour grapes.

Everybody knows Spaniards are as comitted to fighting doping as anybody else. Ok, so their federation might be full of biased homers, but who isn't?

And their judicial system might have blocked and pretty much shelved any doping case they got into their hands... but that's just the judges.

Their government might be dirty as hell, but hey, they're the ones suffering that unlucky curse!

They might be number one in shady doctors per square kilometre, but that's just coincidence.

So what, their riders are the only ones backing Armstrong in unison, but that's just the riders.

So Contador got treated to a hero's welcome when he tested positive, but that was just a couple of retards, not representative at all.

Their media might be a dopers-loving joke, but what does the media have to do with the people!

Pretty much every internet poll shows almost half the Spaniards think Armstrong shouldn't have lost his titles, but everybody knows internet polls have zero credibility!

The Spanish culture isn't more lenient towards doping than any other culture, what a ridiculous thing to say! Spaniards just happened to get the wrong cycling authorities, judges, governments, doctors, riders and media. In reality, they're just victims of all this.

Until Tygart's last investigation the same could have been said of the USA. Before Tygart -who was vilified by a large segment of US cycling- the US was as big a dope haven as Spain. At least the Spanish had Puerto, we had nothing before the Armstrong investigation which many in the US are still calling a witch-hunt.

So glass houses and all that.

 

[No_Balls]

Funny how how the McQuaids never discusses cycling. Instead they feel the urgent need of draw in foreign politics, culture, polls and whatever things that is not immediately connected to cycling, proving a point that is not really topic.

Given that this was a response to me, i am somewhat surprised that you didnt respond to my earlier posts when you had the change. Thus minimizing the risk of being labeled as a troll.

It seems pretty clear to me all this Spain hatin' is just sour grapes.

"Spain hatin" seems from here to be your own words since the first ones admitting the problems in here is the spaniard themselves. I think it should be a option of discussing structural problems in a doping society without unnecassary slandering. You seems to failure very much in this department.

Everybody knows Spaniards are as comitted to fighting doping as anybody else. Ok, so their federation might be full of biased homers, but who isn't?

You mean there are really such things as unbiased federations in which they are not biased to anything? That was something completely new. Could you perhaps give a name so we can hold up these unsung heroes to the cyclingworld free of Omertá and widespread doping.

And their judicial system might have blocked and pretty much shelved any doping case they got into their hands... but that's just the judges.

I dont want to cloud your rose-tinted glasses but doping exists as a worldwide phenomena (not everywere, but those who arent are out of the competition anyway) due to the covering up and that the witnesses are unwilling in broad to speak out against the dopers, with the promise their careers will ends, and the Omertá holds them in check. The juridicial system have nothing to do with this unless someone wont sing out.

Their government might be dirty as hell, but hey, they're the ones suffering that unlucky curse!

Anyone blaming the governments in this world of intertwined governements/federal banking system/unions/politics and so forth should officially be labeled as ignorants. This is a political discussion though.

I am not at all surprised that you, with you limited understanding, catched the hook.

So what, their riders are the only ones backing Armstrong in unison, but that's just the riders.

I saw Valverde backing Armstrong and i clearly didnt expect anything else from that man. And i seem to have asked which rider have cut the only existing ball from Armstrong in that kind of way you are demanding from the spanish riders? Which riders are these?

So Contador got treated to a hero's welcome when he tested positive, but that was just a couple of retards, not representative at all.

Have already explained this. Given how the juridical outcome was presented from his italian Ferrari-connected lawyers the board was set for a nationalistic twist on his contamined meat-story. Very much like that twist the American media was spinning when the french L´Equipe found in the EPO-test from 1999.

Nationalism has no place in fighting corrruption and dopingrelated issues.

Their media might be a dopers-loving joke, but what does the media have to do with the people!

I wonder this too. And since you have repeated this again and again, i am sure you are capable of explaining yourself.

Pretty much every internet poll shows almost half the Spaniards think Armstrong shouldn't have lost his titles, but everybody knows internet polls have zero credibility!

I have already explained this:

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1066379&postcount=327

Either you hide from the questions asked (as you have done this far) or i can make very easy conclusions from your personal mission (that is not to say the general understanding of things) in this thread.

 

[spetsa]

Until Tygart's last investigation the same could have been said of the USA. Before Tygart -who was vilified by a large segment of US cycling- the US was as big a dope haven as Spain. At least the Spanish had Puerto, we had nothing before the Armstrong investigation which many in the US are still calling a witch-hunt.

So glass houses and all that.

Very true. USAC has many questions to answer, and let's not forget the 3 dozen positive tests covered up by USA Track & Field a decade ago. We are no different than other countries by any means. The problem lends itself to completely autonomous, and very profitable organizations, being charged to oversee these things.

On the other hand though, we have a press that is now being pretty agressive in getting to the bottom of this mess. Yes some were complicite in the LA scam, but many were just not familiar enough with cycling to risk stating an opion.

Then on another hand, we have nations steeped in cycling culture and tradition, were we know the press is familiar with the good and the bad sides of cycling and not only fail to report on the bad, but defend it. That can not be written off as ignorance.

 

[gatete]

I think his response was perfect because it showed him to be what he is - a doped up defender of omerta and drug fueled racing with little idea of how the world views cycling.

Agree, like I said before if he stays quite is bad, if he comes charging against doping it will look silly, his response is what should be expected from him.

I still will root for him mind you. I still think all the mega stars of cycling are doping, there is no doubt in my mind now, including the Cadels, wiggos and froomes of the world.

 

[Descender]

America has a high number of rapists, therefor every American is a rapist?

No. Your point??

Until Tygart's last investigation the same could have been said of the USA. Before Tygart -who was vilified by a large segment of US cycling- the US was as big a dope haven as Spain. At least the Spanish had Puerto, we had nothing before the Armstrong investigation which many in the US are still calling a witch-hunt.

So glass houses and all that.

I think you'd be very surprised to find out where I'm from.

Note I haven't mentioned the USA as an example of a country with a leading anti-doping culture.

Funny how how the McQuaids never discusses cycling. Instead they feel the urgent need of draw in foreign politics, culture, polls and whatever things that is not immediately connected to cycling, proving a point that is not really topic.

Given that this was a response to me, i am somewhat surprised that you didnt respond to my earlier posts when you had the change. Thus minimizing the risk of being labeled as a troll.

Forgive me for not answering to every single one of your posts. I do have a life, you know.

"Spain hatin" seems from here to be your own words since the first ones admitting the problems in here is the spaniard themselves. I think it should be a option of discussing structural problems in a doping society without unnecassary slandering. You seems to failure very much in this department.

Where have I slandered anybody here? I think I haven't resorted to any unwarranted personal attacks. Unlike you, who were very happy to call me a troll just some lines above.

You mean there are really such things as unbiased federations in which they are not biased to anything? That was something completely new. Could you perhaps give a name so we can hold up these unsung heroes to the cyclingworld free of Omertá and widespread doping.

No, I don't mean there are such things as completely unbiased federations.

What I mean is that there are federations which would not stoop to the ridicule of acquitting one of their riders after he has tested positive for a banned substance in the biggest race in the world.

I dont want to cloud your rose-tinted glasses but doping exists as a worldwide phenomena (not everywere, but those who arent are out of the competition anyway) due to the covering up and that the witnesses are unwilling in broad to speak out against the dopers, with the promise their careers will ends, and the Omertá holds them in check. The juridicial system have nothing to do with this unless someone wont sing out.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Do you deny that the Spanish judicial system has seen several high-profile doping cases silenced in spite of stupendous amounts of evidence (Puerto and Galgo above all)? Do you deny that this stands in stark contrast to what happens in other, comparable countries like Italy?

Anyone blaming the governments in this world of intertwined governements/federal banking system/unions/politics and so forth should officially be labeled as ignorants. This is a political discussion though.

I am not at all surprised that you, with you limited understanding, catched the hook.

You lost me there again.

I'll expand, just in case.

In the wake of Contador's case, the Spanish Secretary of State for Sports went on record saying he believed Contador was "a clean person and a clean rider". The Prime Minister himself said there was "no judicial reason to ban Contador." That was after he had tested positive.

Find me anything comparable in another European country.

I saw Valverde backing Armstrong and i clearly didnt expect anything else from that man. And i seem to have asked which rider have cut the only existing ball from Armstrong in that kind of way you are demanding from the spanish riders? Which riders are these?

I am not demanding any mutilation.

All I am asking for is for Spanish riders to stop embarrassing themselves by being the only ones to unanimously defend Armstrong after he has been stripped of his titles.

As you very well know, reactions from riders from pretty much any other country have been inevitably less benevolent.

Have already explained this. Given how the juridical outcome was presented from his italian Ferrari-connected lawyers the board was set for a nationalistic twist on his contamined meat-story. Very much like that twist the American media was spinning when the french L´Equipe found in the EPO-test from 1999.

Nationalism has no place in fighting corrruption and dopingrelated issues.

I know you've explained that. I simply reject your weak excuses.

I wonder this too. And since you have repeated this again and again, i am sure you are capable of explaining yourself.

Really?

Who is the press addressed to? Who buys the newspapers?

Get a French rider to test positive, then print articles supporting him and questioning the system like the ones one could find on MARCA and As on L'Equipe. See what happens.

I have already explained this:

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1066379&postcount=327

Either you hide from the questions asked (as you have done this far) or i can make very easy conclusions from your personal mission (that is not to say the general understanding of things) in this thread.

My question would be, doesn't that apply to other countries as well? Can you find any comparable polls from Belgium, Netherlands, France, Germany or Italy that shed results showing as much support for Armstrong? None of the ones I found show such numbers.

In fact, they look more like this:

http://www.rtl.fr/actualites/sport/...99-a-2005-resteront-sans-vainqueur-7753933282

http://www.corriere.it/appsSondaggi...sultati&referrerAction=vota&idSondaggio=11248