Contador and Spanish cycling

[silverrocket]

There is the air of prudence and good sense in Minsk. Thank you. Objectively speaking there's no base using which it would be possible to justify Contador. No Balls tries to build some ephemeral scales of hypocrisy, trying to exponate Contador as the most honest guy in all this commotion. It's absolute nonesense; truly desperate attempt to grasp at straws of faith in case of the person when a word 'faith' is completely inapplicable.

Subjectively speaking I find your post almost entirely unobjective, and thus entirely ironic.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Subjectively speaking I find your post almost entirely unobjective, and thus entirely ironic.

Haha lol +1

 

[airstream]

That tells me that you think Andy is 100% clean. Ok I will respect your opinion, my cynical opinion towards the peloton now switched from unsure, to just suspect of everyone, Contador? sure he's a doper, Andy? of course he's a doper. The Frank association, the unbelievable improvement in Tour form, the way he sucks at every other race, Lance any one? the only reason why I think Andy is not successful as Lance is because Lance had the ump of winning, where as Andy just is happy with excuses, actually I think this is what I call a nonsense doping.

No. I think Andy was on Epo in the 2007 Giro because it's difficult to assume such a young rider had stored blood bags in order to fight for GC. All the more so, there's no clean riders even in top-10 nowadays. Though, it depends on what we call doping. But somehow only Contador makes a circus saturnalia out of this story, tirelessly saying he is allegedly clean. Explain to me, who are these cues destined for?

Your approach is too simplified and doesn't take into consideration lots like base skills, motivation and so on. Or Basso and Menchov is an example of 'nonsense doping' too?

I really don't see with what arguments — but 'I don't care about doping' or 'everyone is equal on doping conditions' [which is not so and you know that not worse than me] — Contador can be defended or justified.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

one point i read...alberto 'if lance guilty he deserves to lose tdf wins'

yet alberto sticks to stating that he won 7 tours ...

He doesn't state that he won 7 - but that it feels to him like he won 7 tours.
There is a difference between heart & head.

 

[del1962]

He doesn't state that he won 7 - but that it feels to him like he won 7 tours.
There is a difference between heart & head.

Surely in his head he has won 5, but in is heart if he was honest with himself he has not won any.

 

[M Sport]

Well lets see him champion weekly blood data & power figures, lets see his medical regime, his daily prep coming up to a GT then be chaperoned 24/7 when he's on that Tour and then submit all his data for independant analysis etc etc............. if I wanted to be seen as the best and to be clean thats the way I'd be going.

I don't have an issue with Lemond's idea of chaperones for the top 20 riders for the duration of GT's, along with his idea of sealed unit power meters that Anti Doping authorities have access to. I would add four or five days leading up to each tour as well.

I don't however see the need for Contador to do that alone on his own accord if that's what you're implying.

 

[No_Balls]

There is the air of prudence and good sense in Minsk. Thank you. Objectively speaking there's no base using which it would be possible to justify Contador. No Balls tries to build some ephemeral scales of hypocrisy, trying to exponate Contador as the most honest guy in all this commotion. It's absolute nonesense; truly desperate attempt to grasp at straws of faith in case of the person when a word 'faith' is completely inapplicable.

It was a response against the momunental hypocrisy from Gooner when he (although very expected) started the day declaring what a two-face Contador is. Damned if he do, damned if he dont was wisdom of the day. Remember AC was cruficied because he didnt litterary cut of Armstrongs only testicle and now he was cruficied because he "is a hypocrite".

At least we can give Andy the benefit of the doubt (though Franks cheating kind of is a stain), but we know that Contador is a cheat.

Why? Because he never tested positive? Remember it wasnt long time ago when AS was considered the "golden boy" in the western world hailed by many from Armstrongs entourage, cycling magazines et. al. Words on the street was that entire routes was constructed so that AS would have a proper shot.

That isnt exactly a fortunate position in the current cycling world, as we speak.

Speaking of Armstrong. AS failure to talk about this topic seems as if, although he hasnt yet officially failed in a test, couldnt exactly condemn doping-related issues in the peloton, which would be a easy thing if your coincience is clear. I mean, AS can be very angry in his belly about so many other things.

but of course where is the truth with what alberto says..........after irking observers with his previous statement he has changed his tune to keep reporters happier.

Remember this thread was created because AC said "the wrong things" and the answer given was that the spanish media is not taking a stand against doping. Now when he speaks to the same media it is to "make them happy". Hilarious. It would have been very easy for him to stick to the same story as what have been already said given how halfheartened attempts have been made from his fellow compatriots/competitors to condemn this affair.

Freire has been class today and AC has softened up. Be fair for once.

 

[gatete]

No. I think Andy was on Epo in the 2007 Giro because it's difficult to assume such a young rider had stored blood bags in order to fight for GC. All the more so, there's no clean riders even in top-10 nowadays. Though, it depends on what we call doping. But somehow only Contador makes a circus saturnalia out of this story, tirelessly saying he is allegedly clean. Explain to me, who are these cues destined for?

Your approach is too simplified and doesn't take into consideration lots like base skills, motivation and so on. Or Basso and Menchov is an example of 'nonsense doping' too?

I really don't see with what arguments — but 'I don't care about doping' or 'everyone is equal on doping conditions' [which is not so and you know that not worse than me] — Contador can be defended or justified.

What I meant by Nonsense doping doesn't apply to either Menchov or Basso, because both are multi tour winners, everybody knows they doped but to the very least won, unlike your boy who hasn't won anything other than winning a CN forum tittle of "Abandony"

 

[Kender]

What I meant by Nonsense doping doesn't apply to either Menchov or Basso, because both are multi tour winners, everybody knows they doped but to the very least won, unlike your boy who hasn't won anything other than winning a CN forum tittle of "Abandony"

technically he did after contador got stripped of his title and andy was promoted

 

[Galic Ho]

I don't have an issue with Lemond's idea of chaperones for the top 20 riders for the duration of GT's, along with his idea of sealed unit power meters that Anti Doping authorities have access to. I would add four or five days leading up to each tour as well.

I don't however see the need for Contador to do that alone on his own accord if that's what you're implying.

Nice point. I wouldn't trust him anyway. I gave faith to Linus Gerdeman when he did a similar thing at the Tour a few years back. Had chaperones...believe it was for German tv or something along those lines. I cannot confirm he went through with it but he said he would. Then he joined RadioShack and I figured it is simply a seasonal thing. And yes, I think if your rode on that team, you did something sometime. Granted not to the degree of what someone like Contador would but still enough to classify as doping regarding the WADA code.

Also, take Garmin. I don't think they are clean. Not uber dirty, but definitely suspicious. Kimmage trailed them. Really to get me thinking you are clean, I need to know your weight, your power output and your VO2max in a laboratory. Then I need to see how you perform relative to other riders given they provide the same parameters and of course what ACTUALLY gets punched out on the road. Then we need your blood profile, all of it, not just the recent stuff, the 2008 post and pre BioPassport values and what you deliver day in day out at a GT. Say your values every 3 days and it better drop. Not like Wiggins dodgy values and LA's as well. And also not look like Basso and Hesjedal's from their respective Giro wins...they were better, but still not what science dictates should happen. Oh and I'll also like to know the entire sample no. collected for the entire GT, who was tested, who wasn't and to scare the living crap out of the entire peloton, some nice police searches (they do not need to be warranted) and some midnight to 2am surprise blood tests from the AFLD or CONI to rattle the sabers again and scare the micro-epo dosers who know that is the only time they can be caught. Test in that time...like a mass test on EVERY rider, a day or two before the rest days and you will find someone with a dodgy hemaglobin level.

Do all of this and I will believe cycling is clean. But it won't be and that would be a good thing. Do this and I know they will catch people. Take testing away from the UCI, put them in charge of official duties ONLY and the sport will clean up. Get an independent body of scientists who can slate ANYONE at any time who looks dirty pharmacology wise and who has a suspect blood profile (UCI suspicion index states almost everybody has one and Ashenden confirmed the UCI panel cannot talk about it) and you watch cyclists fall into line. You will see clean cycling. It is very easy to bring about. Tighten up suspensions and do ALL of the above and yes, cycling will be very clean. People can say the current system is good, like Contador did in this recent speech, but that is willfull ignorance. Most followers of cycling and casual fans simply go into ASSUMPTION mode and think, "they say they test and that means they can catch people and so I am watching clean racing." So many base assumptions about what good hearted and trusting people think SHOULD happen, but reality shows DOES NOT happen. If the public were really informed, cycling might actually be dead professionally, like most pro sports, such would be the outrage.

I cannot imagine any big names in cycling would sign up for the above. Why? They wouldn't be guaranteed to win anymore. Maybe Cancellara would. I could be wrong though. He apart from the French gregarios like Dumoulin or Kittel, has had the best stance regarding the USADA dossier I have read. No BS, said what has been clear for a long time. Plus he said it right at the start. Didn't need to be coaxed or wait to see what everyone else does. It was reassuring from a big name rider and what I wanted to hear/read.

Now about AC. I understand the beginning of this thread and Hrotha hit the nail on the head. But I do think Contador played his first statement wisely. He wasn't saying per se what he was being accused of in the first 20 pages of the thread. He was vague once again. His statement was pale next to Indurains, Valverde's and Samus. Those three had pathetic statements. Their words no doubt angered many here. But AC did not give a specific answer for where he stood. IMO he stood in the middle.

Now he qualifies his statement further with his latest words. Sounded well thought out regarding Armstrong and most could not fault it. Then he went full blown *** (a first for him BTW) and totally unwound all his fine work. He brought up his doping, ahem, beg my pardon, his 'clean' wins. Holding himself in a different light to Lance, well I could argue it is more arrogant than anything those three other Spaniards said. Then again, he admitted Lance deserved to get pawned and he is still staying consistent with his own PR stance and mantra regarding himself. He is entitled to say he still thinks he won and IMO he has a point in that context. He knows damn well what others do to win and how he measures up (they are in the same boat) and has first hand knowledge that Lance is a special case regarding doping. If anyone deserved to be stripped of all the big stuff, it is him.

This whole Spain talks fiasco over the last week has revealed a great deal. Spanish people care Spaniards dope. Some of the Spanish riders, past and present are pushing a very, very fine line. It is very hard to stomach the words of Valverde. Though his personal stance is identical to Contadors regarding his own doping (clear conscious narrative) their opinion on Armstrong is diametrically opposed. I also find it fascinating what happened at the Worlds. Samu and Valverde say pretty much the same thing about Lance, one helps the designated team leader and the other doesn't. I took the words of Freire with a grain of salt after the worlds...now I'm thinking more was at play in the team. Freire's words were very good regarding doping this past week. Impressive on their own, more so because he is Spanish. Given what has been said about USADA, looking back at the worlds it is a shame he couldn't win. More worthy winner than the rest IMO.

I really do wish these guys would shut their gobs though. Contador has for the most part until this recent comment, not put his foot in it. Played his cards well, till then. Now he's gone one step too far. The others? Freire's statement was solid, the rest are putrid, but Contador's words are by merit positioned better. At least he concedes Armstrong can be stripped. He gave a position on that matter...most don't or go the full *** way. At least give him credit for that. Oh and Valverde and Samu...man you two make it near impossible to cheer for. I think I will be barracking for the little guys, or Kittel or Cancellara. At least they don't insult my intelligence.

 

[airstream]

What I meant by Nonsense doping doesn't apply to either Menchov or Basso, because both are multi tour winners, everybody knows they doped but to the very least won, unlike your boy who hasn't won anything other than winning a CN forum tittle of "Abandony"

What are you getting at? What you point is? Doping is okay and anyway you root for the strongest one or what?

 

[ebandit]

sorry!

He doesn't state that he won 7 - but that it feels to him like he won 7 tours.
There is a difference between heart & head.

sorry! my heart spoke...........'there's alberto applying double standards'

..........then..........my head confirmed it

 

[RichWalk]

I don't have an issue with Lemond's idea of chaperones for the top 20 riders for the duration of GT's, along with his idea of sealed unit power meters that Anti Doping authorities have access to. I would add four or five days leading up to each tour as well.

I don't however see the need for Contador to do that alone on his own accord if that's what you're implying.

Agree, no my preferrance would be a la Lemonds/Ashendens comments, i just feel with his status he should be taking the lead towards these actions, as should other high profile earners within the pro ranks; probably a tad utopian as we stand but its an important piece of the credibilty jigsaw.

 

[Love the Scenery]

Maybe I'm just being devil's advocate here but I am not really impressed by Oscar Freire's interview. I wonder how many people have read the full version in ABC:
http://www.abc.es/20121029/deportes/abci-freire-entrevista-201210291335.html

Let's go over some tidbits:

"How do the other riders in the peloton look at you?"
"I have earned their respect and I am also respectful towards others. I am not one of those who systematically thinks ill of others. What happens is there is a lot of hypocrisy in the peloton. Many of those who complained about others have tested positive or are implicated in relations with the doctors."

Translation: I am a respectful and obedient follower of Omertà. Therefore the peloton respects me. I would never criticize another rider for doping.

"After what you say, you will not come out in some murky affair ... ?"
"I don't think so. I have never had a problem, and I don't think I ever will."

Translation: I haven't been caught yet, and I don't think I ever will.

"Do you see any solution?"
"Yes, that the incompetents who do the doping control go away. If people are doping and not being caught, it's because those tests don't work. And we can't go backwards. We have to go forwards."

Translation: Get rid of drug testing and stop investigating the past.

But wait, Oscar, didn't you just finish saying that

"Of course one feels that they [dopers] have taken victories, prestige, and money from us"?

Yes, but then again, Oscar also says:

"It's possible to win many races other than the Tour while saying no [to doping]."

Translation: I'm a sprinter, I win stages and one-day races, so it doesn't really matter to me if the GT riders dope. I get mine.

Honestly, I don't think this is a very positive interview. It drips with omertà, advocates an end to drug testing, reassures us that sprinters will still be able to win without doping, and vaunts himself that he doesn't think he'll ever get caught for doping. We should congratulate Oscar on this? Why?

 

[del1962]

Now that JROd has said that dopers should be banned for life, does he think Contadope should be banned?

 

[Le Baroudeur]

Now that JROd has said that dopers should be banned for life, does he think Contadope should be banned?

Maybe he is suggesting Hope Solo should be banned for life instead of getting a warning for a similar situation to Alberto?

Q. Do you actually think that childish fan jibes like those by Airstream and yourself actualy do anything to resolve the issues in cycling, or promte debate?

 

[airstream]

Maybe he is suggesting Hope Solo should be banned for life instead of getting a warning for a similar situation to Alberto?

Q. Do you actually think that childish fan jibes like those by Airstream and yourself actualy do anything to resolve the issues in cycling, or promte debate?

wow. what globalism. cycling issues are resolved on forums as i see. ok, what would you suggest.. in order to resolve the issue?

 

[Le Baroudeur]

wow. what globalism. cycling issues are resolved on forums as i see. ok, what would you suggest.. in order to resolve the issue?

You could start by lobying for Sylvia Schenk, Verner Møller, maybe Brad McGee, and (hold your breath) Micheal Rasmussen, to lead the investigation.

I have been alive long enough to know that races aren't just won on the road, training track, or lab. Stratergy and Politics plays a huge part too.

Identifying the players and grasping their politics, rather than jumping on every scrap of rhetoric thrown to the croud is a great place to start. Question timming, motive, effect, eventual benfactor, and who wrote the Lyrics.

While there are some people that aproach career, power, and success, from a moralistic standpoint, in my experience, to most it starts as just a game played for one-upmanship without so much as a guiding compass, and little if any valuable purpose beyond victory.

However, just because somebody set out as a player, and had success as a player, doesn't preclude them from becoming moral or a champion with reflection, and if circumstance allows. Successfull players can make very sucessfull champions for a cause, sometimes even moral champions. Unfortunately for some, the cause will allways be number one no matter how they dress it.

White is the new black but they are both shades of grey...

So what is a forum to an issue? It's What you make it...

Sorry for the OT side step.

 

[Benotti69]

However, just because somebody set out as a player, and had success as a player, doesn't preclude them from becoming moral or a champion with reflection, and if circumstance allows. Successfull players can make very sucessfull champions for a cause, sometimes even moral champions.

I would like to see that put into practice.

You cant be a champion if you doped to get there.

When you confess to your doping then you can reclaim some of the moral ground you lost but depending how much you confess too depends how high you climb the moral high ground. By confessing you lose your champion status, which was achieved through doping so you were never a champion except to the blind.

You must think Landis is a god!

 

[Le Baroudeur]

I would like to see that put into practice.

You cant be a champion if you doped to get there.

When you confess to your doping then you can reclaim some of the moral ground you lost but depending how much you confess too depends how high you climb the moral high ground. By confessing you lose your champion status, which was achieved through doping so you were never a champion except to the blind.

You must think Landis is a god!

I use the word Champion in the sense of a 'leader of a cause', not the less noble use as a tittle for the 'winner of a race'.

Alas I don't agree with any part of your post. To me it illustrates naivety about how sport, people, and life realy works.

No I'm not a Landis fan at all. For me he falls into the "unfortunately for some" group with Tyler and Jorg.

 

[No_Balls]

Breaking news: former Giro d´Italia winner and italian National champion Gianni Bugno is part of the "spanish omertá" rigged by the inquisition.

On penalty issues:

“It seems to be a little overboard to do that,” Bugno said. “A lot of riders understand the problem, and they are racing ahead without any problems.”

On Armstrongs legacy:

“(The UCI) are taking on Armstrong now, but there wasn’t even the bio passport eight years ago,” Bugno said. “I respect Armstrong. He’s paid, but he’s going to remain what he was before, a highly regarded cyclist… What happened, happened.”

On todays cycling. Wait for it. Wait for it:

“The biological passport is nothing to laugh at. The UCI has put together an important control over the last three to four years,” Bugno said. “They are doing a lot more controls and going down the correct path. They see the problem and they are facing it.”

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012...s-talking-points-but-no-one-is-talking_263011

Maybe he is suggesting Hope Solo should be banned for life instead of getting a warning for a similar situation to Alberto?

Q. Do you actually think that childish fan jibes like those by Airstream and yourself actualy do anything to resolve the issues in cycling, or promte debate?

You have posted some quality the last couple of posts. Massive kudos for that.

 

[hrotha]

That shouldn't go here. Bugno is the head of the riders union, so what he said is particularly troubling.

 

[gatete]

What are you getting at? What you point is? Doping is okay and anyway you root for the strongest one or what?

Doping is doping, no way to get around it, it seems to me we have two options:

Option one: since everybody dopes I will not watch/root/celebrate anybody because they're all scum, that way I will not participate in Omerta embracing cheats and will not be a hypocrite.

Option two: yea, everybody dopes but I choose certain riders based solely on their style,charisma, personality.........etc, etc.

I will respect any choice you make about those scenarios and will not comment more about your Andy choice, is your choice and is fine by me. you choose to not like AC and that's your choice and again, fine by me.

 

[LaFlorecita]

doping is doping, no way to get around it, it seems to me we have two options:

option one: since everybody dopes i will not watch/root/celebrate anybody because they're all scum, that way i will not participate in omerta embracing cheats and will not be a hypocrite.

option two: yea, everybody dopes but i choose certain riders based solely on their style,charisma, personality.........etc, etc.

I will respect any choice you make about those scenarios and will not comment more about your andy choice, is your choice and is fine by me. You choose to not like ac and that's your choice and again, fine by me.

+100........

 

[sniper]

Doping is doping, no way to get around it, it seems to me we have two options:

Option one: since everybody dopes I will not watch/root/celebrate anybody because they're all scum, that way I will not participate in Omerta embracing cheats and will not be a hypocrite.

Option two: yea, everybody dopes but I choose certain riders based solely on their style,charisma, personality.........etc, etc.

I will respect any choice you make about those scenarios and will not comment more about your Andy choice, is your choice and is fine by me. you choose to not like AC and that's your choice and again, fine by me.

-100

cycling imo should not be a fashion or tv-talent show where the prettiest, most charismatic guy/girl wins.
cycling is where you want to see the best natural athlete win, to see what the human body is naturally capable of.
the inflationary use of PEDs in cycling makes that impossible, and indeed reduces cycling to yet another tv-talent show.