Contador positive!!!!!

[krebs303]

I hope WonderLance comes to make a comment while the scandal is still fresh.

+1.......................

 

[131313]

It was.

However, I notice you ignored the half life argument. It doesn't seem illogical at all to think he doped in training with Clen considering it is out of the body in less than 39 hours. And unless I completely misunderstand human physiology (which could be the case), levels of the substance would diminish over time, meaning the tiny amount could be at the far end of the time line.

I didn't ignore it, I just didn't want to repeat myself or bore anyone to death.

It's certainly not "out of the body" by any means in 36 hours. Obviously it depends on the original dose. If he were using it to build mass and/or decrease adiposity, he'd have taken somewhere along the lines of 100mg. If the standard test is 10,000 pg/ml, he would have had to avoid testing for roughly 4 month to 6 months. This is taking into account degradation on stored blood (which is actually minimal) and the fact that it's a urine test. Remember, 100mg=100 million pg!

Does that seem at all reasonable?

I'm all for busting the guy. I just would like to see him getting busted for the correct offense.

 

[roundabout]

Following a “therapeutic dose (20, 40 and 80 micrograms/man) of clenbuterol hydrochloride”, “plasma levels of clenbuterol reached the maximum value of 0.1, 0.2 and 0.35 ng/ml, respectively, in a dose-dependent manner within 2.5 h, which lasted for over 6 h after the administration. The half-life of clenbuterol in plasma was estimated to be about 35 h.” Further only “about 20%” appears in the urine if one collects the urine cumulatively for 72 hours following a single oral dose.

taken from

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2010/10/more-on-contador-transfusion-theory.html#disqus_thread

 

[offbyone]

You got to keep in mind that these days it is all about micro dosing. Programs don't include huge dosages anymore. The tests can now detect much smaller values, but it is all relative, when you put that in context of the riders dosing with tiny amounts. So these small values are serious issues. We can't make exceptions.

If anything Fuyu Li serves as a precedent. If he gets suspended for similarly trace amounts, then contador doesn't get a pass.

 

[meandmygitane]

Interview with Astana's cook from 23rd of July 2010:

http://www.sport.es/default.asp?idpublicacio_PK=44&idioma=CAS&idtipusrecurs_PK=7&idnoticia_PK=722519

Last paragraph: during the three days they were at the Novotel in Lescar (next to Pau) he wasn't allowed to use the hotel kitchen. He had to make it do with a kitchen in a van. He went to the market at Pau to buy meat. No comment about French meat quality and no mention of meat coming from Spain.

+2 for digging this up.. another piece in the puzzle of guilt.

 

[skidmark]

Making these PR statements is very different from actually following through. If the AFLD etc called his bluff, Alberto could say "I want to allow you, but my lawyers and Fran insist that I do NOT sign the release. Darn lawyers, Sorry"

I also seem to remember Basso giving permission to look at DNA/Puerto data to some agency group that he knew would not / could not inspect.
And they did not.
But some other agency got him in the end.

Valverde also said the same thing repeatedly in 2007 when the UCI was going after him for Puerto. I agree it makes good PR, but doesn't give me a reason to trust him more.

 

[offbyone]

+2 for digging this up.. another piece in the puzzle of guilt.

It is odd. There is so much detail covered about the athletes, their eating habits and such, yet there is no mention during the tour of the spanish cycling organizer who delivered special meat just for contador. Certainly seems convenient. Lot of question marks. The more I think about this case, the more I believe that contador is screwed.

 

[Anonymous]

I didn't ignore it, I just didn't want to repeat myself or bore anyone to death.

It's certainly not "out of the body" by any means in 36 hours. Obviously it depends on the original dose. If he were using it to build mass and/or decrease adiposity, he'd have taken somewhere along the lines of 100mg. If the standard test is 10,000 pg/ml, he would have had to avoid testing for roughly 4 month to 6 months. This is taking into account degradation on stored blood (which is actually minimal) and the fact that it's a urine test. Remember, 100mg=100 million pg!

Does that seem at all reasonable?

I'm all for busting the guy. I just would like to see him getting busted for the correct offense.

Okay, that does sound reasonable. So you are certain that he could not have used Clenbuterol and received that reading?

 

[robow7]

Has this interview from the NY Times come up yet?

"Clenbuterol is banned for use in livestock in Europe and the United States. Although the drug has been used to encourage muscle growth in animals like cows and pigs, European and American regulators cracked down on the practice about 10 years ago after several clenbuterol-poisoning cases in Spain, France and Italy.

In most of those cases, the victims fell ill after eating the animals’ liver, where clenbuterol is known to accumulate.

Fernando Ramos, a professor at the University of Coimbra in Portugal who has studied clenbuterol contamination in meat for 20 years, said it was highly unlikely that Contador tested positive from eating meat other than liver, noting that the concentration would have to be so high that the animal would have died before being slaughtered.

When asked what the chances were that Contador’s positive test, even at such low levels, was a result of the meat he ate, Ramos said, “I can say 99 percent, it’s impossible"

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Okay, that does sound reasonable. So you are certain that he could not have used Clenbuterol and received that reading?

Surely that isn't accurate? Conte claims it clears your system faster than other anabolics so we should be talking about no more than a few days (with the standard, less sensitive test).

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Has this interview from the NY Times come up yet?

"Clenbuterol is banned for use in livestock in Europe and the United States. Although the drug has been used to encourage muscle growth in animals like cows and pigs, European and American regulators cracked down on the practice about 10 years ago after several clenbuterol-poisoning cases in Spain, France and Italy.

In most of those cases, the victims fell ill after eating the animals’ liver, where clenbuterol is known to accumulate.

Fernando Ramos, a professor at the University of Coimbra in Portugal who has studied clenbuterol contamination in meat for 20 years, said it was highly unlikely that Contador tested positive from eating meat other than liver, noting that the concentration would have to be so high that the animal would have died before being slaughtered.

When asked what the chances were that Contador’s positive test, even at such low levels, was a result of the meat he ate, Ramos said, “I can say 99 percent, it’s impossible"

So what about the remaining cases? What did they eat?

What about the study proving that you can ingest up to 50 times more clenbuterol by eating meat from an animal treated with the stuff?

 

[Escarabajo]

Has this interview from the NY Times come up yet?

"...

Fernando Ramos, a professor at the University of Coimbra in Portugal who has studied clenbuterol contamination in meat for 20 years, said it was highly unlikely that Contador tested positive from eating meat other than liver, noting that the concentration would have to be so high that the animal would have died before being slaughtered.

When asked what the chances were that Contador’s positive test, even at such low levels, was a result of the meat he ate, Ramos said, “I can say 99 percent, it’s impossible"

Gosh, you beat me to it. I was getting ready to post it. This is really good evidence the Contador is lying..

 

[Escarabajo]

From Science of the Sports. From the comments section on today's article:

A few more thoughts on clenbuterol pharmacokinetics but first, full disclosure: I posted the section pasted above in "The tablet theory" - my name and affiliation are:
Robert G. Thorne, PhD, Assistant Professor, Division of Pharmaceutical Sciences, University of Wisconsin-Madison
The views I have are of course my own and do not represent that of my employer, the University of Wisconsin.

The point I would like to make is that the initial coverage of this story in the press based upon some of the official documents released thus far by the UCI and Contador's scientific expert have led to the idea that the levels of clenbuterol in Contador's urine are so low as to call into question that they would be associated with any benefit. I don't agree with that. One reason the levels may be so low is that professional cyclists who choose to use performance enhancers in today's races, with the biological passport and increasingly sophisticated testing, must likely do so with the idea that the performance gains they may achieve while still avoiding detection are much less than those of the past. So the level of 'enhancement' we are likely still witnessing is subtle, as Drs. Tucker and Dugas have commented many times already. To reference clenbuterol levels of past dopers and say that Contador's level is '500 to 1000 times less than the doses found in doping cases' (Professor Michel Audran, Velonation report, Sept 30, 2010) seems not to acknowledge this new reality in professional sports that take testing seriously. I do not know whether Contador transfused blood with clenbuterol, took a tablet or ate contaminated beef, but I do know that all this talk about the levels being too low to matter and that somehow this may help point to his innocence is just not convincing.

I thought it was interesting that still a direct consumption of the product is possible.

 

[Escarabajo]

That percentage rises to 53% if the meat belongs to a professional cyclist.

LOL. 60% in some cases.

 

[Escarabajo]

Nah, Contador's luck just ran out since there's indeed a 0.044% chance of finding meat positive for clenbutarol in Europe.

Wow. I had not seen your comment. Thanks. I had used 20% in my calculations. Now they say that you can only get contaminated if you eat liver. LOL.

Chances of Contador telling the truth:

50% x 0.044% x 50% x 30% = 0.0033%

And this is being extremely generous.

 

[TubularBills]

in cycling parlance "meat" is a synonym for "blood bag"

 

[BroDeal]

From Science of the Sports. From the comments section on today's article:

I thought it was interesting that still a direct consumption of the product is possible.

I don't see how Clean can be microdosed, or why. The body builds up a tolerance quickly. The usual method of taking it is to start with 20mcg and increase by 20mcg per day until the side effects become intolerable. Cycles are typically two weeks on and two weeks off. People often use one week on and one week off.

You would not want to take Clen during an event. It burns fat by increasing metabolism and heart rate while resting. You sweat while resting. Aerobic exercise becomes more difficult; users complain that their heart rates get so quick and hard that they are genuinely fearful of heart attack.

You have to wonder about taking something where the usual advice is, "I lost a ton of weight, bro. It works great. Just keep increasing your dose every day until your hands start shaking."

 

[dbrower]

He tested for a bloody huge dose of it after a day when he took 9 minutes or more out of people who kicked his *** the day before! Come on...

Landis didn't test for a "large dose" of testosterone. At no point did his testosterone levels wander out of the mid-normal range. The claim was that some of what testosterone was there was synthetic.

The same "what possible effect" arguments being made by Contador were made at the time for Landis given the actual levels involved.

Landis claims he hadn't used T for months before the tour, because he'd switched to untestable Hgh; and non-frozen blood only lasts 3-5 weeks, so it's not clear to me what happened, and I'm still not completely sold on the exogenous conclusion made in the case.

I think it would be funny, in a way, if the bad meat the Contador ate was three weeks before the tour, when he did his supposed blood draw. How would he argue that?

-dB

 

[laziali]

WE WILL SCREW THE SAINTS RIGHT UP TOMMOROW!

And so you did If Cuddles manages to go back to back tomorrow in Geelong, I reckon you will have had the weekend of your life

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Unless they can get some cattle farmer to testify that he deliberately broke EU farming legislation and fed his cows a banned substance I don't see how anything is going to come to light that will help Contador's story seem more credible.

The two biggest misconceptions in this thread are first that the contaminated meat story is plausible, which it isn't, since feeding Clen to animals is banned in the EU and (as an earlier poster pointed out) there hasn't been a recorded case of contamination in Europe for fourteen years, and second that were this story to be accepted as true Contador might be able to get a reduced sentence, which he can't, since the rules very clearly state that all athletes are responsible for whatever is found in their samples regardless of how it got there. The rules are completely unambiguous on this point. He had a banned substance in his body, so he should be banned, whether it got there through a blood transfusion or a steak or magical Clenbutarol faeries is irrelevant.

To the highlighted above - while the rules state that athletes are responsible for what enters their body, they are allowed a reduction or elimination if they can prove a 'no fault or negligence' to their positive sample.

These are the UCI rules governing this (page 51):
295:Elimination or Reduction of the Period of Ineligibility for Specified Substances under Specific Circumstances.
Then there is -
"Elimination or Reduction of Period of Ineligibility based on Exceptional Circumstances".
296: No Fault or Negligence
297: No significant Fault or Negligence
298: Substantial Assistance

As a brief example from 295;

To justify any elimination or reduction, the License-Holder must produce corroborating evidence in addition to his word which establishes to the comfortable satisfaction of the hearing panel the absence of an intent to enhance sport performance or mask the use of a performance enhancing substance. The License-Holder’s degree of fault shall be the criterion considered in assessing any reduction of the period of Ineligibility.

 

[Der_Gestreifte]

El Presidente says: all will be good.

Did we allready have this?
Have a cosy three month brake over the winter, Alberto (crappy google translation from spanish).

 

[roundabout]

You mean this one

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/depo...ar/Contador/elpepidep/20101002elpepidep_2/Tes

I still can't get over the shock.

 

[Der_Gestreifte]

You mean this one

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/depo...ar/Contador/elpepidep/20101002elpepidep_2/Tes

yep, thank you.

 

[SpeedWay]

Has this interview from the NY Times come up yet?

"Clenbuterol is banned for use in livestock in Europe and the United States. Although the drug has been used to encourage muscle growth in animals like cows and pigs, European and American regulators cracked down on the practice about 10 years ago after several clenbuterol-poisoning cases in Spain, France and Italy.

In most of those cases, the victims fell ill after eating the animals’ liver, where clenbuterol is known to accumulate.

Fernando Ramos, a professor at the University of Coimbra in Portugal who has studied clenbuterol contamination in meat for 20 years, said it was highly unlikely that Contador tested positive from eating meat other than liver, noting that the concentration would have to be so high that the animal would have died before being slaughtered.

When asked what the chances were that Contador’s positive test, even at such low levels, was a result of the meat he ate, Ramos said, “I can say 99 percent, it’s impossible"

Facts, facts, facts. We don't need no stinkin facts around here. Regardless of the fact that he was crying at his new conference the majority of posters here at fantasy land feel he's innocent so could we please move on to discuss "real" doping and dopers again. It's clear Ramos has an agenda against Contador since 20 years of studying clenbuterol can't match the combined experience of the peanut gallery in here. Contador mostly likely feasted on three contaminated livers not on steak like he claimed. As the brain trust ruled here months ago on the Fuyu Li case, it was LA's who was ultimately responsible. Let us start the 10,000th LA thread blaming him for Contador's, and his fanboys, current consternation. Beating Cancellara at his own game is believable, this is all rubbish.

 

[icefire]

You mean this one

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/depo...ar/Contador/elpepidep/20101002elpepidep_2/Tes

I still can't get over the shock.

Mr McQuaid must be suffering some sort of bipolar disorder.

They try to dismiss Contador's case and at the same time he complains that 50% of doping cases they get come from Spain:

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/depo...egan/Espana/elpepidep/20101002elpepudep_5/Tes

Add to that the highest government official for sport in Spain (Mr Lissavetzky) has been recently reelected as representative of European governments in WADA's Executive Board:

http://www.sport.es/default.asp?idpublicacio_PK=44&idioma=CAS&idnoticia_PK=726687&idseccio_PK=809

What do they expect then?