Contador says he might stick w/ Astana!?

[Bag_O_Wallet]

I think AC was thinking about LA, JB and all of the bull crap he had dealt with up to that point, and frankly putting his stamp of authority on the 2009 TdF. The ASO thing, was, to my mind, a blessing in disguise (otherwise he wouldn't have ridden or won the Giro and the Vuelta). But there was nothing about disregarding the team (I think the original poster was thinking about Arcalis).

I'd say lemonade out of lemons.

 

[karlboss]

JB "alberto, sit down son. If you feel good and can take this opportunity to put time into your rivals...don't. ok? there's a good lad.
AC "pero tengo solo 3 o 4 oportunidades mas"
JB "I know, but i want you to wait"
AC "porque?"
JB "I don't know...Levi, why is he waiting again?"
LL "I don't know, I thought we wanted to win this thing"
JB "Andreas?"
AK "if you told me to wait, you know I'd wait"
JB "Lance?"
LA "just f&^ken wait"
JB "wait"

 

[ggusta]

JB "alberto, sit down son. If you feel good and can take this opportunity to put time into your rivals...don't. ok? there's a good lad.
AC "pero tengo solo 3 o 4 oportunidades mas"
JB "I know, but i want you to wait"
AC "porque?"
JB "I don't know...Levi, why is he waiting again?"
LL "I don't know, I thought we wanted to win this thing"
JB "Andreas?"
AK "if you told me to wait, you know I'd wait"
JB "Lance?"
LA "just f&^ken wait"
JB "wait"

in a nutshell, exactly.

 

[lagartija]

KARLBOSS...........thanks that was great , really gave me a laugh.....

 

[ExRower]

Was that the one on Verbier when he attacked off the back.

ho ho! you guys are crackin me up.

 

[python]

more confusing news from astana

belgian sources report they are now asking wagtmans (he was let go over a gm job) to come back and help with getting a pt license.

bad news or good news for conta ?

 

[ruamruam]

What really annoys me about Contador is that he did a really good final time trial. If he was really a team player he would have have caught Andy Schleck pushed him off the bike and then slowed down so Armstrong could have won the tour.

He's just not a team player

 

[zoeart]

more confusing news from astana

belgian sources report they are now asking wagtmans (he was let go over a gm job) to come back and help with getting a pt license.

bad news or good news for conta ?

Was he the person who signed the releases for Kloden, Zubeldia, etc? Because the Kaz Fed said who ever signed the releases did not have authority to do so - or somethng like that. So if he is back now...

This is all too confusing.

 

[python]

Was he the person who signed the releases for Kloden, Zubeldia, etc? Because the Kaz Fed said who ever signed the releases did not have authority to do so - or somethng like that. So if he is back now...

This is all too confusing.

yep very confusing.

i trust wagtmans was the guy who negotiated astana's salary arrears when the uci threatened with their license suspension in the summer. he was like a legal adviser and a gobetween each time astana could not clean their own poo. i trust he also negotiated vino's return with bru and uci they were dead against him.

 

[Angliru]

Luck. The incredible luck. There is NO WAY Ac could have attacked and knowingly been 2 seconds behind Nocentini at the finish. So Astana did not have to defend yellow until after Verbier. Effing spectacular luck if you asked me.

More luck for Astana AND AC at the TTT: 22/100ths of a second keeps FC in yellow, preventing LA from becoming the de facto team leader. And again, Astana, while pace making much of the time, is still not obligated to defend yellow. Mind boggling luck. I wonder how much LA thought about where Astana could have scrambled another 23/100ths of a second (during the TTT) in the ensuing days while FC was in yellow?

I hope you know that it was Bruyneel and Armstrong's intention to have Armstrong in yellow after the TTT. The problem was that theoretically it was fine for Armstrong to be in yellow and for the team to defend it, but according to Bruyneel and Armstrong the priorities had changed (Cough,cough! Double standard!) prior to Contador's attack that almost brought the team to the same end. Arcalis being in Spain, being the first summit finish of the race, should have been green lighted for the designated race leader, who just so happened to be a Spaniard, to release some of that pent up frustration from being denied the opportunity to defend his Tour title from 2007. Instead we had a case of a team's "primary" protected rider, who had been awarded the #1 bib, being told that he was to ride conservatively, so the team wouldn't have to protect the yellow jersey in upcoming stages.

It's likely Contador would have been in yellow if not for Leipheimer's early mechanical, which had Contador's hands tied until Leipheimer regained contact with the elite group on the Arcalis climb. Contador had hoped to attack earlier but did not. Imagine the conflict that would have torn at Bruyneel and Armstrong had Contador taken the race lead at this point. They likely would have even earlier showed themselves to be the duplicitous simpletons that they later showed themselves to be. Criticisms of Contador as selfish and not being a team player, insubordinate and a loose cannon for attacking on a climb. Technically he was responding to attacks from his opponents. He didn't initiate the fireworks but he certainly put an end to them, at least those coming from riders not wearing the Astana colors.

 

[ImmaculateKadence]

No need to lump you in the LA trolls, you give good answers and arguments, thanks for that.

We have to agree to disagree on the Arcalis stage, since the st.3 crosswind stage was clearly against AC's favor, even having his own teammates riding against him.
It was also totally unnecessary, given AC was the strongest rider in his own team.

I do give props for LA getting on the podium, very impressive result.
But I can't stand the way he dissed his own teammate who also wanted to win the Tour, who had the team command until LA pushed his way back.

Had the comeback never happened, I'd still be a big fan of LA. Too bad it did and that opened my eyes.

The crosswinds move is all about how you perceive it. I really think LA and a few other Astana guys (can't remember who) were just in the right place at the right time, but that is totally up for debate.

Yeah I didn't like his comments regarding AC either. Lance needed to keep his mouth shut when he twittered AC had much to learn. That certainly added to the tension, but ultimately I think they both behaved like children. AC let his bike speak for him in the TTs and mountains; there was no need to say he had no respect for LA post tour.

 

[ImmaculateKadence]

Secondly, what was his obligation to his team in that scenario? I do not ask with a tone of indignity. Straight up: why was that offensive? Or do the Lance supporters believe that AC had an obligation to Lance for some reason?
Seriously? You are the number one rider on the team, and a guy hasn't raced in 2 years announces a comeback at 37 or 38 or whatever and you have some OBLIGATION to not attack in the last couple k's of a mtn top finish? Why? It's a race, not a group therapy session. Job 1 is putting someone at the top step of the podium. Mission accomplished.

To answer your second question. AC had no obligation to Lance personally, but he does have an obligation to his team and attacking on the first mountain stage isn't necessary. All the GC contenders were sitting together. Why do that? It doesn't make sense to me. Especially since none of the GC contenders at the time were near AC in the overall. Cancellara had the MJ (not an overall contender), Lance in second, AC in third, Kloden in fourth, and Levi in fifth. Your team has four of the top five spots, and you're going to attack to gain 21 seconds when your behind a teammate by 19 seconds? Makes no sense. He had 6 mountain stages and another ITT to make up time.

 

[Publicus]

The crosswinds move is all about how you perceive it. I really think LA and a few other Astana guys (can't remember who) were just in the right place at the right time, but that is totally up for debate.

Yeah I didn't like his comments regarding AC either. Lance needed to keep his mouth shut when he twittered AC had much to learn. That certainly added to the tension, but ultimately I think they both behaved like children. AC let his bike speak for him in the TTs and mountains; there was no need to say he had no respect for LA post tour.

Given all that has been said that occurred in the hotel during the TdF (and that has yet to be contradicted by Lance or Bruyneel), the fact that he said he respected Lance's accomplishments on the bike, but didn't respect him personally seemed like a gracious comment on the situation. How that's acting like a child is beyond me (he was responding to a direct question in a press conference).

 

[Mellow Velo]

Attacking on the first Tour mountain stage isn't necessary?
A pity no one bothered to inform Armstrong of this now, seemingly well known tactic.
It's exactly what he did in 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002......

It appeared to make a lot of sense, when the shoe was on the other pedal.

 

[Publicus]

To answer your second question. AC had no obligation to Lance personally, but he does have an obligation to his team and attacking on the first mountain stage isn't necessary. All the GC contenders were sitting together. Why do that? It doesn't make sense to me. Especially since none of the GC contenders at the time were near AC in the overall. Cancellara had the MJ (not an overall contender), Lance in second, AC in third, Kloden in fourth, and Levi in fifth. Your team has four of the top five spots, and you're going to attack to gain 21 seconds when your behind a teammate by 19 seconds? Makes no sense. He had 6 mountain stages and another ITT to make up time.

This was, before this year, a classic Bruyneel move. First mountain top finish, you lay down the law and separate the men from the boys. Go back and watch the USPS/Disco years. Always worked that way. He put the fear of G-d in everyone of the other competitors, save maybe Andy Schleck. That's why you do it. Psychological advantage. Couple that with JB and LA conspiring to get Lance in yellow (and let's face it, they were despite what JB was saying) and the logical outcome of the leadership dynamics if they had been successful, I'm struggling to understand why you don't understand the move. And just one more point: you ALWAYS take time on your rivals when you have the opportunity. You never know when you are going to crash, get caught in a split in the peloton, or simply have a bad day.

What makes no sense is Bruyneel putting time into AC on Stage 3. That made no sense whatsoever. (The break in the peloton happens. Driving the break is a whole other matter).

 

[Bag_O_Wallet]

To answer your second question. AC had no obligation to Lance personally, but he does have an obligation to his team and attacking on the first mountain stage isn't necessary. All the GC contenders were sitting together. Why do that? It doesn't make sense to me. Especially since none of the GC contenders at the time were near AC in the overall. Cancellara had the MJ (not an overall contender), Lance in second, AC in third, Kloden in fourth, and Levi in fifth. Your team has four of the top five spots, and you're going to attack to gain 21 seconds when your behind a teammate by 19 seconds? Makes no sense. He had 6 mountain stages and another ITT to make up time.

Had Contador NOT made that move, he would have been ordered to drag Lance up the Verbier to a yellow jersey. And THAT was the sole purpose behind the old combine on stage 3.

 

[peloton]

This was, before this year, a classic Bruyneel move. First mountain top finish, you lay down the law and separate the men from the boys. Go back and watch the USPS/Disco years. Always worked that way. He put the fear of G-d in everyone of the other competitors, save maybe Andy Schleck. That's why you do it. Psychological advantage. Couple that with JB and LA conspiring to get Lance in yellow (and let's face it, they were despite what JB was saying) and the logical outcome of the leadership dynamics if they had been successful, I'm struggling to understand why you don't understand the move. And just one more point: you ALWAYS take time on your rivals when you have the opportunity. You never know when you are going to crash, get caught in a split in the peloton, or simply have a bad day.

What makes no sense is Bruyneel putting time into AC on Stage 3. That made no sense whatsoever. (The break in the peloton happens. Driving the break is a whole other matter).

Exactly.
+1

 

[ImmaculateKadence]

I think you guys are missing the point here. It is a well known tactic; I understand that, but I don't ever remember Lance's US Postal and Discovery Channel teams monopolizing the GC the way Astana had at this point. Admittedly, I was only a casual cycling fan at that time, but that kind of dominance I don't remember in recent years. Attacking with no purpose but to gain time on a teammate doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't matter what teammates are involved; If it were VdV trying to gain time on Wiggo, I would have the same reaction. Hell if it were Lance launching an all out attack trying to seperate himself from AC, I would be equally appalled.

 

[Publicus]

I think you guys are missing the point here. It is a well known tactic; I understand that, but I don't ever remember Lance's US Postal and Discovery Channel teams monopolizing the GC the way Astana had at this point. Admittedly, I was only a casual cycling fan at that time, but that kind of dominance I don't remember in recent years. Attacking with no purpose but to gain time on a teammate doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't matter what teammates are involved; If it were VdV trying to gain time on Wiggo, I would have the same reaction. Hell if it were Lance launching an all out attack trying to seperate himself from AC, I would be equally appalled.

I think the problem is you see AC as gaining time on his teammates as if that is an aberration. A team leader ALWAYS gains time on his teammates when he is gaining time on the other GC competitors. His job is to win, not minimize the time gains vis-a-vis his teammates--that's how it works. You attack to gain time. Otherwise, you don't win.

EDIT: Trust me on this, if Lance had the acceleration and stamina to separate himself from the top GC competitors on Arcalis, he would have. He wouldn't have thought twice about doing it.

 

[Bag_O_Wallet]

I think you guys are missing the point here. It is a well known tactic; I understand that, but I don't ever remember Lance's US Postal and Discovery Channel teams monopolizing the GC the way Astana had at this point. Admittedly, I was only a casual cycling fan at that time, but that kind of dominance I don't remember in recent years. Attacking with no purpose but to gain time on a teammate doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't matter what teammates are involved; If it were VdV trying to gain time on Wiggo, I would have the same reaction. Hell if it were Lance launching an all out attack trying to seperate himself from AC, I would be equally appalled.

And that's the ugliness of having two teams wearing the same team kit.

 

[Angliru]

To answer your second question. AC had no obligation to Lance personally, but he does have an obligation to his team and attacking on the first mountain stage isn't necessary. All the GC contenders were sitting together. Why do that? It doesn't make sense to me. Especially since none of the GC contenders at the time were near AC in the overall. Cancellara had the MJ (not an overall contender), Lance in second, AC in third, Kloden in fourth, and Levi in fifth. Your team has four of the top five spots, and you're going to attack to gain 21 seconds when your behind a teammate by 19 seconds? Makes no sense. He had 6 mountain stages and another ITT to make up time.

One it was in Spain and he's Spanish. Two, with the team leadership hanging in the balance and Armstrong & Bruyneel already clearly showing who the team strategy is geared to optimize who's chances of Tour success (Armstrong), sometimes its necessary to improvise on the road on the "strategy" that was set forth that morning. Three, they had reached the 2 or 3 km to go point before the summit finish and the only attacks were the weak ones from Evans and Van Den Broeck. The other contenders weren't feeling the strength to try to lessen their time disadvantage by attacking, a sign of weakness to an aggressive rider like Contador who was chomping at the bit with pent up energy. His attack gained him additional seconds to his advantage on his opponents. Four, in grand tour, any opportunity to gain time on their opponents that presents itself should not be passed up if one has the legs to do so.

I mentioned this in another thread weeks ago but there was a blatant contradiction in the Astana strategy that surfaced the day of the TTT and then right after the stage to Arcalis. Bruyneel stated how great it would be for Armstrong to be in yellow after the TTT if Astana were able to gain enough time to snatch from Cancellara. Of course they were unsuccessful by the shortest of margins. There was no mention of the potential for early fatigue as a result of defending the yellow jersey until after Contador's attack on Arcalis.

It was actually their plan to try to reel in the break that included the eventual successor to Cancellara in the yellow jersey, Nocentini. It was still their hope to get Armstrong in yellow until they saw that it wasn't likely that they would be able to catch the escapees. It was only after Contador did what everyone watching, participating, working the event, and even the announcers knew that he was going to do and attacked on Arcalis that the Bryuneel/Armstrong contingent began crying foul about what disservice may have done to his teammates had he made it to the summit seconds earlier. Oh what a disservice!! His teammates would have had to defend the yellow jersey just as they would have had to do had Armstrong/Astana crossed the line a second earlier in TTT. Its actually an insult to the basic intelligence of all that were paying attention to the drama that ensued, with the exception of those that are so blinded by all that is pro-Armstrong and refuse to see the facts that are plainly in front of them.

For me it was simply a rider that saw the writing on the wall and did what was necessary to regain what was rightly his. Armstrong and Bryuneel said that it would all be decided on the road but when it was finally decided they wanted to cry foul. They tried to break & contain Contador in an effort to maximize Armstrong's chances for success which is contrary to everything I've ever learned in my +2 decades of following this sport. They were trying to create a pretty picture of the great champion making a triumphant return to the sport. They had the script prepared but Contador didn't like his part, started improvising on his lines and stole the show.

 

[Mellow Velo]

This is the same old argument as in the Contador's frame of mind thread.
It's ludicrous as it completely ignores the fact that Andy Schleck was in the race.

Who was in line to get pushed off the podium, with all this team hand holding?
Armstrong, not Schleck.
Kloden might have made the podium.
The guy who has just paid the authorities 25 grand to have his doping past swept under the carpet.

I honestly think there are some folks out there, who still cling to the delusion, that Armstrong may somehow have found a way to sneak into yellow, if Arcalis had never happened.

In that respect, Verbier must have struck a subconcious chord.

 

[ImmaculateKadence]

Apparently, there is no convincing you guys. As much as I like both riders, I'm sick of discussing it.

Agreeing to disagree.

I would much prefer to discuss the present and future.

 

[Bag_O_Wallet]

This is the same old argument as in the Contador's frame of mind thread.
It's ludicrous as it completely ignores the fact that Andy Schleck was in the race.

Who was in line to get pushed off the podium, with all this team hand holding?
Armstrong, not Schleck.
Kloden might have made the podium.
The guy who has just paid the authorities 25 grand to have his doping past swept under the carpet.

I honestly think there are some folks out there, who still cling to the delusion, that Armstrong may somehow have found a way to sneak into yellow, if Arcalis had never happened.

In that respect, Verbier must have struck a subconcious chord.

Had Arcalais not happen, I'm sure LA et al would have said that there's was no reason to attack on the Verbier either.

Thinking a bit more about this... it would have been fun to see Armstrong in yellow. People knew he didn't have the legs, and, much like Hinault in 1986, he would have been attacked relentlessly.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Of course.
Those who criticise Contador's behaviour on Arcalis, do so, with the benefit of hindsight.
I wonder how many of his detractors would have predicted the major Pyrennean stage day, all the favourites would sit in a tight bunch and that no one would attack?
Especially given the fact that there were no time bonuses on offer.
In effect to neutralise the only MTF in the first two weeks of the race.

If Andy Schleck had gone up the road, while Astana were in this team huddle, they would have been called, quite correctly, incompetent.

Mountain stages are a bit like a boxing match; punch and counter punch. You don't expect the number one contender to enter the ring, with his chin stuck out and his hands tied behind his back.